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#352966 - 07/24/07 04:22 PM POLL - Sloppy = ineffective?
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Kimo2000 from another thread:

Quote:

Too much alive training leads to sloppy technique.




* Does too much resistance/alive training impart sloppiness?

* Is sloppy technique neccessarily inferior or ineffective?

Please vote and explain your position.
Does too much alive training breed sloppiness?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 07/24/07 04:21 PM
View the results of this poll.
Does it matter?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 07/24/07 04:21 PM
View the results of this poll.
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#352967 - 07/24/07 04:48 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
sloopy doesn't = ineffective.

sloopy = inefficient waste motion and energy.

Does it matter much to a street fighter? No effectivness matters most.

Does it matter in a combat art or skill level field most definitely.

Skill vs. Skill efficient movement is the difference in getting there 1st, more often and the hardest, in most cases.


Edited by Neko456 (07/24/07 04:49 PM)
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#352968 - 07/24/07 05:28 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

* Does too much resistance/alive training impart sloppiness?





Point or order (you changed my quote)!

So let me clarify I was making a distinction between drilling and applying.

If you don't drill and just apply, then yes you will have sloppy technique, why? You can't make adjustments when applying, if you do then you are drilling.

In a live application you will fall back to what you know or what works for you, and that may not be the technique. You will continue to reinforce this bad or marginal technique because it works for you, but never attain truly good technique because you don't drill.

Quote:

* Is sloppy technique neccessarily inferior or ineffective?





No but it's usually never great either. First time you face a truly gifted fighter all that sloppy technique will get exposed.

It's not that I am knocking the idea of Aliveness, I admit I like the idea very much, but there is so much gold in drills the idea of not doing them boggles my mind.
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#352969 - 07/24/07 05:49 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Does too much resistance/alive training impart sloppiness?

I don't think alive training builds sloppy technique. It can do if not enough drilling is done, but drilling can be alive as well. If every time you train, you are thrown in at the deep end, with any technique being allowed, then yes you will have sloppy technique. Building good technique requires isolating a technique to a certain extent before adding it to a more free-form context. I don't think that any advocate of aliveness will disagree with that.

As always, it is a case of having a well-rounded approach to training is more beneficial. Doing so much of one thing so that you have no time to do another will inevitably damage some aspect of your game.

Is sloppy technique necessarily inferior or ineffective?

YES!! Techniques are performed in a certain way because that is the best way to create power, speed, and maintain defense. If I do a sloppy right hand, it will be easier to avoid/defend and will not have the same knockout power. If I do a sloppy side mount then the guy will escape more easily.

Sloppy technique should not be confused with personalised technique: some people simply get more effect out of doing a technique one way rather than another- an example would be most judo throws that judo players change according to their body type and strengths. Top judo players perform their throws differently, but it would be wrong to call one technique sloppier than another.

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#352970 - 07/24/07 10:03 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Aliveness CREATES PRECISION technique, not sloppy technique! Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a crystal clear understanding of what aliveness is.

Its been MY experience both from talking to people in person and in particular, on this forum, that many people have a misconception of what aliveness is. They will often jump to the assumption that aliveness is always SPARRING! That's incorrect.

Aliveness is merely having the qualities of realistic timing, movement/motion and progressive resistance. It's not just sparring. Drilling is and should be completely alive, and when you fully understand the concept, you'll NEVER have to go a day without aliveness in training. Even with complete beginners, even on their very first day. No need for deadness, dead patterns or dead anything, at all, ever again.

But, if you DON'T understand aliveness, then you'll make all kinds of assumptions that it creates sloppy techniques (just completely wrong), that it's unsafe, etc., etc. It simply isn't true.

Did you all know that focus pad training can be "alive"? So let me ask you, do focus pads develop sloppy technique? NO. Focus pads REFINE technique.

What about when people practice wrestling? They don't practice THAT in a dead manner do they? Of course not. They don't develop sloppy technique! They develop AWESOME technique!

What about Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighters? They don't practice in a dead manner and they have INCREDIBLE technique!

So, sloppy technique? Not in a MILLION years. Functional technique is more like it.

Thanks

-John

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#352971 - 07/24/07 11:48 PM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Agree with John here,

Aliveness actually creates SHARPER and more PRECISE techniques. Knowing to learn to apply techniques under pressure will make them more precise, not sloppy, while at the same time defining what techniques work, what techniques doesn't work for you under pressure.

Aliveness makes things simpler, less complicated, while refining those simple skills. Less is more.

Look at MT boxers. Their techniques are pretty simple, but because they train hard and alive, they're able to apply what they know under pressure and make things work for them. They're not feared because they've got a wide range of techniques, but because they got a few highly effective techniques.

Learning something in a dead pattern will not make a technique more precise nor effective.

Quote:

If you don't drill and just apply, then yes you will have sloppy technique, why? You can't make adjustments when applying, if you do then you are drilling.


Very true in my opinion. Knowing alone won't help, it needs to be drilled into your head and then USED IN AN ALIVE ENVIRONMENT. If it's just drilled but never put to the test, it's pointless because in a real fight, the fight is static, always changing, the conditions will never be the same as when you were drilling, too many variables will render the drilled technique obsolete unless it has been put under pressure test.

-Taison out
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#352972 - 07/25/07 12:20 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
John,

If you are smokin the crack you need to stop, it you are not, then you need to start.

But to clarify, someone who shall remain nameless (MATTJ) changed the statement.

My orginal statement was defining the difference between, drilling and application, so your passionate argument, is against a strawman.

But for the record, BJJ does practice "dead" drill you call them. At least the guys I have seen do.

Now I still believe you need to learn some muscle memory in a dead or low resistance environment so you can learn the basic body concepts that will become your foundation. And if you skip that step, you miss out on small but critical lessons that can have a big impact later on.

This in no way says "aliveness" is bad, not at all, but deadness has it's place as well.

Sometimes I think we just make up arguments to have reasons to yell at each other.
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#352973 - 07/25/07 07:11 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Kimo2007]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
MattJ! YOU... YOU... I JUST WANT A FIGHT! BRING IT ON!

Is that a good reason to yell at the weakling?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#352974 - 07/25/07 08:38 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: Kimo2007]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

Now I still believe you need to learn some muscle memory in a dead or low resistance environment so you can learn the basic body concepts that will become your foundation. And if you skip that step, you miss out on small but critical lessons that can have a big impact later on.
This in no way says "aliveness" is bad, not at all, but deadness has it's place as well.




Bless you, Kimo2007. That is exactly what I have been bitching about in Aikido.


Edited by iaibear (07/25/07 08:42 AM)

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#352975 - 07/25/07 09:23 AM Re: POLL - Sloppy = ineffective? [Re: MattJ]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I was surprised to see the close vote on "does sloppiness matter?". Maybe not so much if you're an absolute beast. Aside the fact, as Supremor brought up, sloppy techniques are easier to defend, a sloppy punch from me is probably the difference between stinging someone and ending the fight.
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