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#352685 - 07/23/07 09:41 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: idaho]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
That whole thing about training on dummies and cardboard cutouts - then thinking you have the same ability on a resisting, moving and attacking human being of skill and physical conditioning is what gets me. I suppose I'll just never understand why people think that sort of thing is actually effective.


-John

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#352686 - 07/23/07 11:47 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: JKogas]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
John,
maybe every tool in fighting doesn't come from one on one training. Some skills are accuracy skills, others are practiced for distraction purposes. While you don't think they have any value, I can assure you that the finger strikes to the face and open fingers around the eyes are a major distraction in a fight, whether or not you gouge the eyes.

The "dead" training is used for accuracy drills and movement is done by taking the cardboard and having someone hold it and move it as if sparring with someone. The object is to strike in the area of the eyes, not necessarily to gouge them out.

I'd be interested to hear how you train those techniques...

Just for giggles, here's another discussion of pretty much the same thing...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...0&fpart=all

Don't worry though, these guys don't know anything either...
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#352687 - 07/24/07 06:36 AM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: wristtwister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
wrist twister wrote
Quote:

John,
maybe every tool in fighting doesn't come from one on one training.





I believe 99% of "martial arts" practice probably should Grady. Otherwise we're fooling ourselves.


Quote:


Some skills are accuracy skills, others are practiced for distraction purposes. While you don't think they have any value, I can assure you that the finger strikes to the face and open fingers around the eyes are a major distraction in a fight, whether or not you gouge the eyes.





Iím not saying otherwise. I just said that such things probably shouldnít be practiced against dummies and cardboard cutouts. Accuracy against an inanimate object Grady??! Sorry, Iím just not buying that.


Quote:


The "dead" training is used for accuracy drills and movement is done by taking the cardboard and having someone hold it and move it as if sparring with someone. The object is to strike in the area of the eyes, not necessarily to gouge them out.





While that cardboard is moving around, not fighting you back, youíre not developing any timing though. You could do the same thing with a human being either wearing goggles or you could touch his forehead with your finger tips.

Personally, I would just rather practice my jab to be honest. Whatís the difference between a jab or a cross and a finger flick to the eyes? Opening the hands. Thatís it.


Quote:


I'd be interested to hear how you train those techniquesÖ





Well, I just told you a few ways. Seriously, I could spend my time working my jab with a closed fist. The logic is that if I can hit someone with a closed fist, I can get my fingers into his face even easier Grady. The hand is longer when open. Itís just a matter of opening it. Pretty easy to do.

Other ways are to use the open hand to the face in the clinch, the way it's always been done with us. I still don't need to dance with a dummy or someone holding cardboard......


Quote:


Just for giggles, here's another discussion of pretty much the same thing...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...0&fpart=all

Don't worry though, these guys don't know anything either...






Didnít see anything but a bunch of different points of view. What was that supposed to do for me Grady? Tell me something I didnít already know?


-John

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#352688 - 07/24/07 11:56 AM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Wow another Jkogas and Wristwister debate among this interesting topic, both making some good points. Ecletic/realist and Trad/realist both seeking alive training but from different parts and ideas encompassing their strong foundation and opinion. Where is my buttered Pop corn!! This should be good as were the many others debates like Lomatta vs Robinson. different as night and day but championship effective.



Being an old trad fogy I have to really discourage doing a jab in place of a finger tip strike to the eye, fighting. Boxers or streetfighters with boxing background sometimes will take or try barely lean away from a jab to counter with a heavy righthand. Knowing this you finger tip eye strike using the extra length of fingers over the fist, the right hand is in on its way but its disrupted and changes to both hands covering his eyes. A jab just won't give you those results, with just more then a slight touch. It changes from you being staggered or Ko'd into a near helpless foe in front of you. Been there done that.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#352689 - 07/24/07 12:10 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Neko456]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Regardless of whether sport "is" self defense or not, we can probably all agree that sport doesn't hurt your ability to do martial arts. If you enjoy sport on the side or even as part of your self defensive training, it is more hours spent training sensibly and vigerously, which is a good thing in my book.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#352690 - 07/24/07 12:17 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Regardless of whether sport "is" self defense or not, we can probably all agree that sport doesn't hurt your ability to do martial arts.




Not always the case....I present exhibit A:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Em1SXIhn-ow

_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#352691 - 07/24/07 12:21 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko,
John and I don't really disagree on the fighting part of this issue, it's how you train to get there. I still like the older methods of developing skills that are valuable to have, and aren't necessarily built from fighting itself. There's a lot of football learned at training camp that doesn't show up until they're running the plays for real in a game... but the skills training isn't necessarily done in scrimmages. That's where I'm coming from. There are a lot of training exercises that are useful without being "combat exercises"... and the last time I looked, every team has a different philosophy of how the game is played.

How do you do "alive" weightlifting... throw the weights at each other? No, you have exercises and lifting routines to build strength individually. Does that strength show up in fighting... absolutely.

I'm just saying that not every skill or part of fighting is built in combat training. You have to have a basis of training that gives you the tools of fighting... alive, "dead" or whatever, it takes more than one method to develop good skills because the skills require different things... body mechanics, stances, movement concepts, etc.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#352692 - 07/24/07 02:44 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: wristtwister]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
First you learn the drill then you apply.

Too much alive training leads to sloppy technique.

Not enough alive training leads to unexecutable technique.

Skip either one, to your peril.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#352693 - 07/24/07 06:36 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Kimo2007]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Roger that, Kimo...
Like everything else in life, people go overboard on one side of something and think that everything else is useless... especially in training. The "all or nothing" mentality will get you killed most of the time.

Having perfected skills, whether "live" or static, are good to have in the toolbox. Live training helps with timing and technique selection, but it's nothing more than scenario training or randori. If you "go hard", it can be very similar to any fight you might encounter, but you don't have to kill each other to develop the skills to do so.

Over the years, I've had my share of full contact fighting, grappling, and getting slammed, so I'm not a wuss about getting hit, or thrown down... but I learned most of those skills in training classes, not in randori. All I did there was to learn to see the openings to use them, and get the timing for making them work. As you say, learn the skill, then apply the skill.

I'm not so sure I agree that too much live training makes sloppy technique, but it does lead you to try things that you can't do (at least not correctly) so you end up in a "wad" on the mats, or get your lights knocked out. When I did judo, it seemed that the Judoka had an answer for everything I did, and if I learned that... they had another answer for "their answer". Incorporating all that into karate, and adding jujutsu and Aikido, gave me a pretty well rounded training... but I liked boxing, and a few other "minor arts" as well... so the answer doesn't lie in any "one" art, but in what works for you and what you like to do.

Luckily, there are combat arts out there where you can bust each other to pieces if you want, or simply practice kata and one steps... so there's room out there for everybody. Which one is best?... the one you choose and like for yourself. You can make it as real as you like...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#352694 - 07/24/07 09:49 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

First you learn the drill then you apply.

Too much alive training leads to sloppy technique.





Kimo, by this post my friend, you merely show that you don't have a true understanding of what aliveness is. Drilling can be alive. Application is alive. Between progressive resistance and variable intensity, there is no room or need for "deadness".

So before anyone speaks of how aliveness leads to sloppy technique (which is simply absurd), much sure you have an adequate understanding of what it exactly IS.


Quote:


Not enough alive training leads to unexecutable technique.

Skip either one, to your peril.





And DEAD training yields a dead response.


That should be added as well.



-John

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