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#352665 - 07/23/07 01:13 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Boxing has changed it was once barefisted and they stood over the guy before he could stand fully he'd have to defend himself. Boxing was more like a real fight then, amazing they'd fight 60-70 or more rounds in fights those guys were amazing.

BJJ changed it doesn't use the deadly techniques of JJ, it uses the the tap out of judo. Old style JJ you didn't tap out they moved to the next hypothetcal move, striking and breaking stuff.

Sport is not self-defense because it doesn't have serious intent, continous fighting may not be that big a factor as is intent, you don't punch the temple, fient breaking the arm, sweep and stomp the head. You duck and fly in with your arm touching a guy like its a jousting pole or skip across the ring kicking head high (testicle dangling) trying to touch his head. In the old days it was closer to self defense bare fisted/feet at Brown/Black level there was no touching. You knew why you guards were lower you pee'd blood if hit by a punch to kidney!! Or a rib was craked or bruised if punched.I Remember Sandan James Steward a kenpo man, in sparring ostogari and down punch nobody (mostly TKD men) could stop him. They did kick him out the ring sometimes, he did hook kick their grions in some those kicking attempts. That was closer to self defense the down punch was crushing usually to the body. Karate Tournament players looked like the liberty figters on the stamp limping home but smiling through a bloody mouth.

Things change so that kids can get invovled and for safety, it happens to most contact activities look at wrestling once thought to be the Greek full spectrum contact art. Its really hard to be like self defense if its a fought like a game of touch or flag football.


Edited by Neko456 (07/23/07 01:28 PM)

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#352666 - 07/23/07 01:44 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Anything in sport can pretty much be transferred to self defense. And if you practice sport and compete, even more so. From my own training in class with people I know and respect, I'm pushed to be better. When I have competed against people I don't know, even with rules to protect each of us, I felt almost a fear for my life. They were out to win and I was out to win and there was no holding back. Of course I wasn't going to eye gouge them or bite them or hit any soft fleshy parts to inflict life threatening damage but we both were out to hurt each other and become the victor.

I do believe what you train you instinctively incorporate and use and if you limit that training it will effect your self defense skills. Take for instance that when training grappling and then ground'n pound was introduced it took some time for me to realize times I could punch. With time and more training this wasn't a problem but it had to be trained for me to retain and use it.

However I also believe in the "survival" instinct that if I'm in a life threatening situation I will resort to any means to survive or protect others I care for. If it is biting, gouging or any other dirty trick in the book I will use it and I don't have to train those to do it.

I think too many people get lost in this and get their backs up saying sport is not self defense because there are rules but what they don't realize is that those rules allow for the safety of each individual. Take for instance MMA and the UFC in particular as we all have watched this. If the ref did not step in to stop some fights then many of those fighters would be seriously injured or even dead. Yes of course the rules also do not allow you to do some techniques that could end the fight faster and would be more beneficial for self defense but that isn't the argument in whole. The training is similar and is transferable so anybody training both sport and self defense can easily do both. And those who do sport and compete, well they are more likely to be more effective in my opinion in a real life encounter due to they are using many of those techniques with resistance against actual people. Those that only train and simulate those attacks and don't have the full resistance of an opponent will not get it. And let me be clear on this, training with resistance in class is not the same as competing with resistance in a competition. The adrenalin levels are not the same. The fear is not the same. The aggression is not the same. Competition takes everything to the next level and if you train self defense then competing "with rules" will make you even better. So therefore I believe that sport can be self defense.
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#352667 - 07/23/07 02:24 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Dereck]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Dereck, you are saying two contradictory things.

Here, you recognize that what you train - or don't train - limits your SD skills.

"I do believe what you train you instinctively incorporate and use and if you limit that training it will effect your self defense skills. Take for instance that when training grappling and then ground'n pound was introduced it took some time for me to realize times I could punch. With time and more training this wasn't a problem but it had to be trained for me to retain and use it."

Yet here you say exactly the opposit, that in a survival situation you suddenly don't have to train the techniques to use them.

"However I also believe in the "survival" instinct that if I'm in a life threatening situation I will resort to any means to survive or protect others I care for. If it is biting, gouging or any other dirty trick in the book I will use it and I don't have to train those to do it.

With all respect, real life says this doesn't happen. The FBI experienced this with dead agents that were policing their spent brass in a firefight - because that the way the worked their shooting ranges. There is another incident where a Canadian cop took a knife away from an a guy - then handed it back because that's the way they worked their classes.... over and over and over.

The lesson is that once the adenaline hits the blood stream all you get back is the way you practiced.

And if you are a sport grappler, for instance, and spent all you training learning to set up locks and hold them till the guy taps.... what do you think you are going to respond with when it's the real deal? That's just fine if you have the opportunity to safely sit on the guy till the cops come. But... what if they aren't the first ones there?

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#352668 - 07/23/07 02:52 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Joss I agree you eventually fight the way you train. Because a lot of people think taking someone down is a safe way to fight in a gym, they will or can respond that way on the hard concrete on the streets even if you pound and ground a guy out, you are still mangled and bloodied.

I agree with Joss that self defense is different then sport. Sport training can enhance the reflexes that aids self defense but it takes a concisous effort to Pound and ground standing up, to lock and snap instead of lock and hold. I think even if you don't break if you snap the hold and move on to something else that hurts its better then waiting for a tap or being startled and letting go because they scream out in pain. In self defense you should train they are suppose to scream and you should too. Training rolling if a guy screams usually you will let go of the hold.

Dereck you train sport and think it crosses over to self defense we will see when you need it, as hard as you train you should do ok, but I just hate that you might try ground fighting on concret with those bad knees and ankles or was it shoulder and ankle? If they take you there, you got to do what you got to do, but don't go there yourself. Unless its your only strong suite. My 2 cent.
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#352669 - 07/23/07 03:05 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Here is one point that many don't get. THERE IS NO WAY TO 100% INSURE ABILITY TO PERFORM ON THE STREET. Training has to be safe or else your won't be training long and really won't be ready to defend yourself. What if you can't escape and must fight to the finish? Training for sport can help to develop attributes. When training to fight I also like to go for high percentage. The head is larger than the throat. Although striking to the throat may be considered a "deadly" technique, the head is larger and can be easier to hit. Also some people have very muscular necks and a strike to it may not produce the desired effect. This is true with many "deadly" techniques. Its also about position. Training to gain a dominant position is more important than "deadly" techniques. I also think there are a lot of severely violent people involved in martial arts. Everyone wants to collapse a person's trachea, break someone's arms so the bone is poking through the skin, etc. Many times an elbow to the temple, a knee to the face, a palm strike to the skull, or a fist to the jaw, or a throw onto the concrete will work just fine.

And actually I bet I could make a sport out of your fence drill Joss. Would that make it an ineffective way to train?

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#352670 - 07/23/07 03:22 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Joss, I do believe that what you train is important as I gave you the example in my own training with ground'n pound, however I wasn't in fear for my life or was not protecting anybody but myself in a training situation. I had to get my mind set around this and did. If I for once thought my life was in jeopardy my survival instinct would have kicked in and I would have grab a handful of hair, or gouged eyes/nose/face/groin/etc. I would have done anything and everything to survive because that is instinct. Years ago when younger and got into too much trouble and fights, I did not have a lick of training with the exception of junior/high school wrestling. I have not always been on the winning side of things and have resorted to some dirty underhanded survival techniques that I did not train for but knew to use. Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough and I hope this clears it up better. Training and surviving are two different things. Many people with no training are good at self defense just like many street fighters have no training but could kick many trained people's butts. There are many good trained fighters out there but the better fighters are those who can instinctively fight and then learn training.

Neko, I don't discount going to the ground if it has to but trust me, I'd rather not fight if I have to. I'd rather keep things standing up myself but faced with a better striker and taking into account my surroundings and other people, I'd have no problem going to the ground to survive. Thank you for your concern though. As for the injuries ... neck and knee. As for my training I can't really say we are sport though those can be elements to the training if you wish. TKD/BJJ is more self defense in nature but we are encouraged to test ourselves by doing sport. By doing sport I can honestly say it is more intense then training in class as you do put it on the line as somebody is trying to hurt you and you are trying to hurt them.
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#352671 - 07/23/07 03:56 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Dereck]
matchhead_jack Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Jonesboro, Arkansas
Outside of the vein of conversation but on the topic. Paintballing is a sport, SWAT CQB (Close Quarters Combat) is a martial art (according to Musashi Miyamoto). Would you rather put firearms in the hands of a really good paintball player for a hostage rescue or a really good SWAT officer who routinely practices CQB with live rounds? Both individuals have a much better chance of success than Joe walking down the road but the SWAT officer will have the advantage.

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#352672 - 07/23/07 04:02 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: matchhead_jack]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Outside of the vein of conversation but on the topic. Paintballing is a sport, SWAT CQB (Close Quarters Combat) is a martial art (according to Musashi Miyamoto). Would you rather put firearms in the hands of a really good paintball player for a hostage rescue or a really good SWAT officer who routinely practices CQB with live rounds? Both individuals have a much better chance of success than Joe walking down the road but the SWAT officer will have the advantage.




That is an extremely poor analogy. Especially considering that the "sport" fighters are more on the level of a professional such as SWAT and most SD training dojo members are recreational martial artists as opposed to professional, similar to the paintball practitioners. Now if you are refering to a professional paintballer, then I would think that the professional MMA fighter uses the equivalent of "live rounds" more so that the mom who is trying to train "karate" for self defense.

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#352673 - 07/23/07 04:11 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Dereck]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Dereck, I've read lots of your posts and always found them informative. Right now, though, it's like you are coming so very close to saying that SD training, in a life or death situation, is not important because instinct kicks in and makes it unnecessary. If this is true, wouldn't it mean that MA training (whose foundation concept is building useful skills into reflexive responses through countless repetitions) is basically invalid?

Or if this is only true for those already blessed with good instinctive skills, what about the rest of us?

My position is not that sport MA is bad. It is that sport MA has pitfalls when one tries to apply it directly to an SD situation. The pitfall is that: what you train is what you will get. This does NOT mean that all sport fighters will have their a$$ handed to them by all SD people, by any means. SD is totally situational and there are exceptional people in the sport venue whose skills are amazing. My skills wouldn't make me one of them. I represent the run of the mill. So I don't have the luxury to believe I can train one way and respond another when the chips are down.

Maybe we're getting to that point where we have to agree to disagree.

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#352674 - 07/23/07 04:33 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Joss, what is wrong with training to punch someone in the jaw, knee strike them in the nose, kick them in the leg, etc? Yes, you will respond how you train. Understand that I am not a big sport guy, however, I do see the skills that such training produces. It develops very solid basic technique. Which, in case you have not heard, can be very effective in self defense.

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