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#352655 - 07/23/07 09:43 AM Sport *IS* self-defense?
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I hear a lot of folks say that sport is not self defense, because of the rules. But all training has rules of some sort, right? I mean, we're not actually killing each other in class, no matter how deadly the material we're working on.

But it seems like one could make a very good case for sport training being as close to true SD as anything else. Resistant training requires you to *defend yourself* in the most basic possible way.

Rules do not protect a boxer from the opponent's overhand right or left hook KO attempt - the boxer does.

Rules do not protect the BJJ stylist from an armbar or RNC attempt by the opponent - the BJJ stylist does.

Rules do not protect the judo stylist from getting thrown to the mat from the opponent's hip toss - the judo stylist does.

Etc.

And yes, I get that rules DO protect the boxer from an armbar or RNC attempt by a BJJ stylist.

But within the scope of the engagement, it IS self defense, as pure as anything else.

I'm sure no one can possibly disagree with my masterful arguement.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352656 - 07/23/07 09:49 AM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
Haha I agree. It might not be self defense on the streets, but you are defending yourself against the other fighter. And you can use techniques in street fights that you use in the ring.
So yeah its self defense

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#352657 - 07/23/07 09:58 AM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: WhiteDragon11]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Sport is a game, not self defense, because of the intent. Lacrosse is a sport...kobudo is not. Boxing is a sport because both people engaged step into the ring to fight with the intent to 'win' within boundaries. Karate, when used outside of the training context (which has plenty of rules, spoken and unspoken) is not an agreement between two people...and the intent is not to win but to survive.

Sport is not self-defense because you win or lose...not live or die.

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#352658 - 07/23/07 10:03 AM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Joss Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
The problem with "sport" as self defense is that it limits the scope of techniques you train. What you train is what you internalize. If you don't train them, you won't use them and many that are "not legal" are very useful if you are the victim of a criminal assualt.

I don't mean this to be a complete list. These are just techniques we incorporate into our SD training that you probably don't see in any sport competition.

Head butt to the face.
Knees to the groin or face.
Snap kicks or any strikes to the groin.
All manner of strikes to the throat.
Same to the eyes.
Head cranks.
Traps and joint breaks (NOT locks).

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#352659 - 07/23/07 12:16 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Joss,

I think you are a assuming something here that may not be true. When you spar, do you actually do any of these things? If not, then why would you assume that in a sport-centric paradigm that those who are involved more intensely with sport wouldn't know or practice these as well?

Is it better to train a throat strike, or be able to get into a postion that would allow you to more easily accomodate this technique, if you knew it in the first place?

Next time you spar, tell me if you are allowed that neck crank.

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#352660 - 07/23/07 12:17 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The problem with "sport" as self defense is that it limits the scope of techniques you train. What you train is what you internalize. If you don't train them, you won't use them and many that are "not legal" are very useful if you are the victim of a criminal assualt.

I don't mean this to be a complete list. These are just techniques we incorporate into our SD training that you probably don't see in any sport competition.

Head butt to the face.
Knees to the groin or face.
Snap kicks or any strikes to the groin.
All manner of strikes to the throat.
Same to the eyes.
Head cranks.
Traps and joint breaks (NOT locks).




Hmmmmm......well, that was not my argument at all. I posit that resistant sport training IS self defense in spite of the limitations. The skills are transferrable to other situations. And even in the sporting context, you must actually defend yourself - if for nothing more than just a trophy.

BTW - some competitions do allow many things on your list:

eye strikes-

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15947318

headbutts, groinstrikes -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15838029

Groin kicks were also allowed in some divisions of Ed Parker's Internationals tourney in California. Not sure if they still are.

Head cranks - allowed in some grappling tourneys

"All manner of strikes to the throat." "Traps and joint breaks."

True, I don't know of any competition that allows throat strikes. And I'm not sure what you mean by "breaks" and not "locks". I'm sure no school allows students to actually break each other's joints in class, right?

Quote:

Sport is a game, not self defense, because of the intent. Lacrosse is a sport...kobudo is not. Boxing is a sport because both people engaged step into the ring to fight with the intent to 'win' within boundaries. Karate, when used outside of the training context (which has plenty of rules, spoken and unspoken) is not an agreement between two people...and the intent is not to win but to survive.




I am afraid that seems like semantics to me. You win a boxing match by "surviving" the bout, yes? If you get KO'd, you did not "survive" it. Your kobudo practice has rules, right? How is that different from any other sport? If you say "I can change the intent", then why couldn't a boxer?

Not trying to be an a$$, just food for thought.

Quote:

Sport is not self-defense because you win or lose...not live or die




Not even every criminal assault ends in death. But in any case, I was talking about the skills imparted, not the lethal-ness of the practice. I mean, do you all disagree that boxers and Bjjers must defend themselves in competition?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352661 - 07/23/07 12:28 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
This is an example of semantical differences. I don't agree that anyone 'survives' a boxing match. You may endure, overcome, persist, outlast, etc....but the definition of survive is 'to remain alive'. Was there any real worry that getting into the ring was a death match?

Quote:

I am afraid that seems like semantics to me. You win a boxing match by "surviving" the bout, yes? If you get KO'd, you did not "survive" it.




I did differentiate between training/practice and the arena of conflict.

Quote:

Your kobudo practice has rules, right? How is that different from any other sport? If you say "I can change the intent", then why couldn't a boxer?



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#352662 - 07/23/07 12:46 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I did differentiate between training/practice and the arena of conflict.




Yes, I did see that. However, that did not answer this question:

Quote:

If you say "I can change the intent", then why couldn't a boxer?




Because otherwise, you are investing in yourself/your practice some abililty that is (by your reasoning) not in others. I am simply looking for what the difference would be, since I don't see any.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352663 - 07/23/07 12:47 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: butterfly]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
When we spar, we do all of these things. Butterfly, this takes us back to the definition of sparring.

My guess is that you see it as a facimaly of two guys agreeing to a duel - emptyhanded - a boxing match but just with fewer rules. But with this scenario you still have the question of how close the replication comes to the real thing.

We don't train much that way. My basic premis is that I've got no business "agreeing" to fight anyone. Thus almost all my sparring launches from me in a "fence" position, and the attacker coming at me. My simple goal is allow him only one attack movement and to take full control of him from that point. You can peek into the SD section here and see the list of HAOV's we are using.

We ramp up to full speed and power on some attacks and then drop it down as control is gained and the middle and end part of the techniques occur. You are correct in that we don't apply full speed or full power head cranks. Not on eye gouges, groin strikes, either.

On others we haven't figured out a way to go full speed and power, so we tone it down to a level we can survive. Or we pad up the attacker, where we can, to get a little faster and harder. But we do it repetitively until it starts to become a natural reponse.

And repetitive practice is the key. I went through the first six years of karate in schools that avoided these targets and techniques. The result was I never used them. But now, even though we use control and slow deliveries in many cases, they are becoming natural. My experience has shown me that there is a tremendous difference between "knowing" a technique intellectually, and "knowing" it as a conditioned reflex.

So the basic division is this: do you NOT train them because you feel only full speed full power sparring is useful? Or do you train them a lot, even though it is often slow and with great care. We do the latter.

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#352664 - 07/23/07 01:06 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Matt, not to forget you...

Here's part of a post I did in the SD section where Jpoor asked if it might be dangerous to overlearn "tap and release" with regard to SD.....

******************
We see locks and chokes as "retention" measures. They are useful for stopping a situation without injuring someone. Their downside, though, is that they require your full attention and they HOLD it. Doing so, they leave you badly exposed while you provide that attention. They are employed at great risk if one is facing the possibility of multiple attacks. Then there are also the added risks Leo points out, above.

The bigger safety question, then, is does your training recognize that their use is limited, situationally, instead of random?

Here's a little question to help you see what I'm saying: If you lock someone up into a good functional lock, WHEN do you turn loose? Is it when the cops get there? Or is it when his buddies pound you to hamburger? Or maybe it's once you successfully complete court ordered mediation, weeks later?

The thing is - if you don't have this completely figured out - why did you put him into a lock? Because.... maybe it's just what came out of your training. If so, there's a problem.
*****************

My point is that retention techniques are where a sport training orientation can take a person unknowingly into situations that aren't wise.

I know it doesn't address everything you asked, but maybe it's enough to see my point of view.

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