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#352675 - 07/23/07 05:01 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: matchhead_jack]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by matchheadjack -

Quote:

Outside of the vein of conversation but on the topic. Paintballing is a sport, SWAT CQB (Close Quarters Combat) is a martial art (according to Musashi Miyamoto). Would you rather put firearms in the hands of a really good paintball player for a hostage rescue or a really good SWAT officer who routinely practices CQB with live rounds? Both individuals have a much better chance of success than Joe walking down the road but the SWAT officer will have the advantage.




I have to agree with Medulanet that this is a poor analogy IMHO. You seem to equate sport with less effective 'rounds' or 'weapons' than SD. But a boxer, even with gloves on, can knock someone out - what prevents him from killing that person at that point? A BJJ guy could choke someone out or break their arm. These are somehow less effective than any other type of choke or joint break?

And I must disagree with Joss as well. If you think that sport trained folk with not be able to add to their repetoire under pressure, then I assume other folk's eye gouges and throat shots would fall short for the same reason, right? Again, we ALL operate under rules.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352676 - 07/23/07 05:22 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"If you think that sport trained folk will not be able to add to their repetoire under pressure, then I assume other folk's eye gouges and throat shots would fall short for the same reason, right?"

Sorry Matt but I don't follow. Who are these "other folks"?

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#352677 - 07/23/07 05:41 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
Meliam Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 61
I would say that it depends on the sport. After training Knock-Down Karate, BJJ and Muay Thai before i got into Krav Maga i can assure you that most of the guys I trained those "sport" systems with would be really good in a self defense situation.

I would take a full contact "sport" system where the practitioners are used to hit and get hit over a system where a bunch of people talk about how dangerous their techniques are and pat each others backs but never see anything that looks like real combat.

Self defense trained in an environment like most Krav Maga schools teach it is a different matter.

But again put a good Krav Maga student up against a Muay Thai fighter or a BJJ fighter and I bet the fight would be even. Most so called 'Sports" systems do have strikes and techniques that are forbidden in a sports fight but would be used in a life or death situation.

Mike Tyson once said "After you get hit once all your strategy goes out the window" if you never fight but all your knowledge is academic you will not do good in a fight.

Meliam

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#352678 - 07/23/07 05:43 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: harlan]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I don't agree that anyone 'survives' a boxing match. You may endure, overcome, persist, outlast, etc....but the definition of survive is 'to remain alive'. Was there any real worry that getting into the ring was a death match?




Ask Michael Watson.

In a 'sport' fighting environment, you are dealing with full force attacks by a skilled, trained, conditioned oponent who wants to overpower you, and render you incapable of defending yourself in order to profit from that dominance.

In a physical assault, you are dealing with full force attacks by an oponent who wants to overpower you, and render you incapable of defending yourself in order to profit from that dominance.

the motive does not change the physical experience of the fist meeting the chin.

the only variables are a) the level of training of your attacker, and b) the lengths to which they will go to attain that dominance.

If you take part in regular full force competition against well trained fighters, and manage to stay conscious and avoid or negate their attacks, then the smart money is on you being much better equipped to deal with a volatile individual who's intent and aggression are their main tools.

'teh dedly str33t fyetor' may well stamp your head into pudding mix if he knocks you down, but if you can take a punch, and more to the point are well used to slipping and avoiding the punch, then your head is less likely to be in a position to be stamped upon in the first place.

Now lets look at what we all preach as SD 101: 'If attacked, run to safety'. Great advice. Hows your running? spend a lot of time on roadwork in aikido do we? NO ONE in the martial arts is fitter or better equipped to impersonate Jesse Owens than a competetive sport fighter. 3-7 mile steady state, HIIT sprints, every tool necessary to get your a$$ out of dodge when the bandits hit the saloon.

Hemingway had a great way of defining sport. He said that any persuit that posed genuine risk to life was a sport, and everything else was merely a game. Full contact fight competition is a sport by his definition, and thats good enough for me.
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#352679 - 07/23/07 05:45 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Josh, sorry this is not what I'm saying and if that is the way it is coming off then I blame lack of sleep over the last week. I but good faith into training and reflexive response due to countless repetitions. I'll try to explain better ... I hope.

Those that train self defense I think have a step up then the average person but I don't dismiss that there are people out there with no skills that can protect themselves as effectively as well whether it is a fighting instinct, size, no fear, or what have you. I also believe that people that train self defense that also compete and transfer those skills to sport are even a higher step up then just the person who only trains self defense. Those same skills are now being used as close to reality as they can within rules set out for the safety of both individuals. I also believe that those that train only sport are able to take many of those same abilities and use them in a self defense situation as much of the skills are the same (kicking, punching, clinch, knees, elbow, RNC, armbars, etc). I don't dismiss the fact that they don't have all of the skill set of the person that practices and competes, but most definitely like the person who just does self defense training, sports people are again probably a step up then the average person; both could be better.

I've not trained at a lot of facilities but what I have seen is even when training self defense there are still rules within the training to allow for the safety of those training. I practice low kicks frequently and I am not above kicking somebody's legs out from under them or attacking the knee whether it is a roundhouse or side kick. However in training I cannot do this otherwise I would no longer have a training partner and I would most likely be asked to leave. The same thing with the RNC; I can apply this but I stop when the person taps for their safety.

Now whether training self defense or sport they both sort of have rules. With the argument of many, if I get used to my partner tapping is it not possible out of instinct from repetitiveness that I may stop in a self defense situation if they tap purely out of instinct? Or that because I don't sink my fingers deep into somebody's eye socket and only simulate the eye gouge that I may simulate in a real life encounter.

I believe this can happen and whether sports training or self defense they both have flaws but I think it also comes down the the individual. The individual can make the difference and their understanding of the technique whether sport or self defense of how they will react to those situation. Plus again I believe in the survival instinct that in situations many will be able to apply those techniques they know and make them more deadly whether they had sports training, self defense training or both. And again I don't dismiss the survival instinct in those without training such as many women who will instinctively use their nails to scratch an assailants face or to go for a vital area such as the groin or eyes. They did not need training for this, they just knew to do it during the adrenalin rush to survive. Trained is better of course.

If this still reads differently then your belief then yes perhaps we are on different thought patterns or are close but not quite there. I just don't see as great of a difference in sports training and self defense as others do and perhaps that is due to not seeing others ideas of training. Ours is training to learn techniques to protect and then using those techniques in class with partners but also putting it on the line if you so desire by competing thus taking your skills to the next level. When training in class we are bound by many of those same rules for safety of our partners whether it is kicking and punching each other, clinching up and throwing knees and elbows, sweeps and throws, joint manipulation, etc. And in training you cannot use your full force which again in a real life encounter there is always a possibility that somebody may not use their full strength due to this repetitiveness ... however this is where again I feel that the survival instinct will kick in and you will know to kick and punch as hard as you can, to use your full strength to administer as punch pain and damage as possible.

My apology if I've taken this thread out of its realm.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#352680 - 07/23/07 05:55 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think a balance is always required. I hate using the term sport to describe athletic training. This is why I’ve always used the term “aliveness” to describe it. Another term is combat athletics. Without such training as your “core”, you’re just not going to be very good at fighting. I believe this can be fairly easily demonstrated.

Certainly once the delivery systems of combat "sports" are well in place, simulating the foul tactics isn’t a bad thing to do. I believe their place is more limited in sparring however, unless you have some VERY experienced and controlled individuals who are participating.

As I have always believed that fighting is always about positioning (regardless of range), he who controls the position, controls the fight. If you can dominate position, it doesn’t matter WHAT technique you’re using to end it. Simplicity rules and as such, I would stay with the tried and true and not so much the things that are truly only performed in “theory”. Just my opinion.

-John

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#352681 - 07/23/07 06:06 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: JKogas]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

I think a balance is always required. I hate using the term sport to describe athletic training. This is why I’ve always used the term “aliveness” to describe it. Another term is combat athletics. Without such training as your “core”, you’re just not going to be very good at fighting. I believe this can be fairly easily demonstrated.




This is well put and I will now adapt this to my own vocabulary.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#352682 - 07/23/07 07:32 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Sorry Matt but I don't follow. Who are these "other folks"?




Folks that practice eye gouges and throat shots. Since no one can do them for real in class, they would have similar limitations as the sport-trained folk ie; "fight how you train". (pulling strikes?)

EDIT -

Just to clarify, this was not meant to be a "vs." or "X is better than Y" thread. Rather, just trying to show how different methods go to a similar objective.

So perhaps questions need to be addressed:

* Are limited rules sport fighters defending themselves in competition?

* Are the rules inherent in ANY martial arts practice effectively making them sports/combat athletics?

* Are these skills more transferrable to SD situtations? Less? No different?

* Does intent alter the nature of the practice, or the skills gained/used/lost?

Let's hear it.


Edited by MattJ (07/23/07 07:42 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#352683 - 07/23/07 08:57 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

* Are limited rules sport fighters defending themselves in competition?




Of course they are defending themselves, but not with the kind of intensity they would if their lives were threatened. Intent has a lot to do with intensity, and when you're "looking for a knockout", you aren't "trying to kill" your opponent, and vice-versa... so the level of intensity is different.

Quote:

* Are the rules inherent in ANY martial arts practice effectively making them sports/combat athletics?





Absolutely. Even the MMA pro-circuits have rules to protect the fighters, and referees to jump in to save their bacon if they're getting hammered. Sport karate and other MA have pads, chest protectors, and guards to help them protect the limbs and body parts of the participants... and the rules strictly limit what kind of techniques you can use and what level of force can be applied.

My friend, Mr. Hino, placed 2nd in the world championships of karate because he knocked out his opponent something like 7 seconds into the match. Absolutely they structure the rules to make them combat arts, but "controlled" sports.

Quote:

* Are these skills more transferrable to SD situtations? Less? No different?




Any skill you learn in fighting is transferrable as a fighting skill for self defense. Whether or not you want to try to shoot in and tackle a guy on a gravel parking lot is your choice, so if you have other "toys" to play with, you might make a different choice... but if it's available, it's usable. Some hurt more than others.

Quote:

* Does intent alter the nature of the practice, or the skills gained/used/lost?




Absolutely! The main problem with Aikido practitioners is that they usually have to reach black belt levels before they understand that their entire art works off the attacker's force. If you don't intend to hit me, I have to make up the difference in the force required to do my technique, so it makes it more difficult and changes the timing of the training. That's the reason people look so bad when they're attacked for real and don't have the timing to actually handle a "real attack". Of course, you have to ratchet up the training as your students gain skills, but if I tell you I'm attacking with X technique, you better think I'm trying to knock your brains out with it, because I'm coming at a speed you should have to use whatever level of technique you have. Stopping before I hit you is my option... not yours.

As for the eye gouges, driving the nose cartilege into the brain, etc., those are practiced on the "rubber Bob's" that are available... same with neck strikes and chin strikes. I don't have to break your neck to train to do so, but the "half man" dummies provide an adjustable tool to be able to train against all sizes of opponent and see how your particular techniques work.

The old martial arts schools in Japan used to have about a 1/3 casualty rate of students killed or permanently injured. They didn't have the tools available back then to do what we can do today in training, so while we don't necessarily poke somebody's eyes out in training, it doesn't mean we can't gain the skills to do exactly that.
"In the old days", we used cardboard cutouts suspended on a string to practice eye strikes, and we were deadly accurate with them. Nukite and nihon nukite strikes are first class weapons in the real world, and unless your opponent is already blind, his first option is going to be to protect his eyes... or he's going to be fighting at a great disadvantage.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#352684 - 07/23/07 09:10 PM Re: Sport *IS* self-defense? [Re: MattJ]
idaho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 5
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outside of the vein of conversation but on the topic. Paintballing is a sport, SWAT CQB (Close Quarters Combat) is a martial art (according to Musashi Miyamoto). Would you rather put firearms in the hands of a really good paintball player for a hostage rescue or a really good SWAT officer who routinely practices CQB with live rounds? Both individuals have a much better chance of success than Joe walking down the road but the SWAT officer will have the advantage.
------------------------------------------------------------

Hello everyone, first message..don't usually "actively participate" in forums....but....this struck me as an odd comparison primarily because the effectiveness of SWAT CQB, SWAT team entry, hostage rescue, etc (something I have some experience with) got markedly improved and the training much more "realistic" when the team/man began training with....you guessed it "paintball". Now most use air soft or rubber bullets or similar, but you get the idea. Actually firing rounds that either hit or missed...and just as important, taking rounds, that hit or miss jumped the effectiveness of the teams drastically.

Now, I don't entirely disagree with Joss's points. I have only seen 1 or 2, but watch a fight where kicking to the groin is allowed and it is absolutely comical. I dont have to tell you what the #1 defensive priority was! Almost to the exclusion of all else.
I am not a huge bjj fan, I have trained it for several months and while I find it "necessary" I dont particularly enjoy it. I can say, however, that unless you train with, I believe the term was "aliveness", you are counting on a lot of things that probably won't happen. Poking someone in the eyes isn't exactly easy..if you are close enough to hit their trachea, they are close enough to tackle you, etc. I think arts like judo, boxing, bjj, and similar are absolutely necessary if you think you might actually need to defend yourself in a physical (unarmed) altercation, with someone who has any fighting skill at all.

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