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#352369 - 07/22/07 01:55 AM karate useless MA
danny81 Offline

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 350
this is a generaly thought now. most people think that black belts cant win a fight against a random guy and that karate doesnt work in a real fight etc etc. i dont practice karate but if you watch the original ufcs you will realize its obviously not the best but they still hung in there with the great MAs so i think karate actually is pretty good as a fighting style. i wanted to get your views on it

#352370 - 07/22/07 02:22 AM Re: karate useless MA [Re: danny81]
Salek Offline

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Minnesota
I was almost certian at the start of your post that I was going to be annoyed... Well it turned out to be harmless... But I, too, think that karate is not a useless art. Its not the art, its the person.
He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.

#352371 - 07/22/07 03:57 AM Re: karate useless MA [Re: danny81]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I would say it is the manner and mindset someone trains with, their natural assets and their determination to 'win' at all costs that determines the effectivness of ones art, whatever the art.

with that in mind a good guess would be around 80% of modern karate is proberly not much use to your average person for defending themselves in words and I do karate
Jim Neeter

#352372 - 07/22/07 09:51 AM Re: karate useless MA [Re: shoshinkan]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
HOW one trains is vastly more important than WHAT they train. Obviously though, the "what" often determines the "how".

My personal view is that the practice of forms/kata does not enhance one's fighting ability to the degree that other methods do and, that such practice takes time away from the more functional practice (alive drilling and sparring, etc). That goes for ANY art that has forms - not just karate (silat, wing chun, etc).

The less time you have for "functional" training, the longer its going to take you to develop that proficiency and to maintain that proficiency.

Just my opinions.


#352373 - 07/22/07 10:01 AM Re: karate useless MA [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ditto what JKogas said.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#352374 - 07/22/07 11:20 AM Re: karate useless MA [Re: MattJ]
Joss Offline

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Ditto JKogas. I think it can be taught "uselessly".

I think karate, overall, suffers schitzophrenia in that it doesn't know if it is a sport, a historic kata preservation club, a self defense art, or all of the above. At the dojo level this may be clearly established. But the public doesn't know this, and that is where most new students come from. This is a formula for confusion and, when expectations are not met, for hard feelings.

#352375 - 07/22/07 11:22 AM Re: karate useless MA [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

I would say it is the manner and mindset someone trains with, their natural assets and thier determination to 'win' at all costs that determines the effectivness of ones art, whatever the art.

with that in mind a good guess would be around 80% of modern karate is proberly not much use to your average person for defending themselves in words and I do karate

Hi Jim

well another is karate any good thread. My thoughts.
I would tend to agree with what supposedly passes as modern karate. But would you say the same about a thai boxing fight minus gloves? Now before I get flack about that comment I think there is a lot of parrellels between thai boxing and karate as indeed other arts.One school of thought says that it isnt the technique it is how the technique is trained. I agree with that statement.
My karate is somewhat basic and more than likely in need of a lot of additions but karate practiced, as Im lead to believe as it should be, is good enough to be used against any person in a none gloved confrontation .


#352376 - 07/22/07 12:22 PM Re: karate useless MA [Re: jude33]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I think Karate is useful.

Look at Daido-juku. 'nuff said about "usefulness"

-Taison out
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

#352377 - 07/22/07 01:15 PM Re: karate useless MA [Re: shoshinkan]
student_of_life Offline

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
and i wish that that 80% would drop the name karate and pick up something more fitting. something like sport sparing, or cardio kick boxing or what ever. if your in a gi and you move around like your doing a kata, dosen't make it karate. and just because you call it karate dosn't make it deadly by any strech of the imagination. sweat,blood tears, and partners that try to take your head off is what it takes. training is simply training. unless its...
its not supposed to make sense

#352378 - 07/22/07 03:06 PM Re: karate useless MA [Re: JKogas]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
John, this isn't directed at you, just at the premise of this discussion...
while I agree that every training method doesn't suit everyone, just blanket-rolling karate off and throwing it away isn't the answer to self defense training either. I've been doing karate training a long time, and also Judo, jujutsu, Aikido, and weapons... so I don't feel that any one art has "the answer". It depends on a lot of circumstances. Think of attacks as questions, and defenses as "answers".

Personal health is one of the considerations too. While I've had techniques that would work great anytime, my recent health issues with my hip and back have caused me to have those techniques unavailable any more... so what does that mean? It means I need a new answer to those "attack" questions, and a reasonable response based on my current situation.

In the 1980's, I had a spin kick that would take down an elephant... but those same problems take that option away, so I have to have another answer. Is it in karate?.. maybe. Is it in jujutsu? Aikido? Judo? weapons?... just where do I go to "replace" that technique? The answer is that I go to "scenario training" and "work it out", using the techniques that I have available in my "toolbox".

Fighting is fighting... and the guy with the best tools usually wins. If he chooses poorly, he gets beat. If he doesn't have the tool, he loses. It isn't rocket science to understand that "not all training fits all situations", and even the invincible get their a$$es kicked when they don't have the answer at the time of attack. That doesn't negate anybody's art, just their application of it.

I watch all martial arts with a critical eye, and an analytical one... to see if what they advertise is actually what they deliver. The current craze is MMA, which is a "piece of this and a part of that" combined to create a fight for television. While the "crowd" thinks all these guys are invincible, they wouldn't last long in a lot of arenas where the questions to them are different and their responses had to be different. Punching techniques are one good example... it doesn't take much skill to sit on somebody's chest and frail the hell out of their head... while getting that position might take some grappling skills, the pummeling of somebody you have pinned down isn't really a skill... it's a "technique of opportunity" where almost any mechanics will work and while there's a referee there to stop the match, the damage is limited to the good judgement of the referee... which doesn't prove the "viability of any art" to me.

You have to understand fighting to understand the viability of an art. If it's "contest fighting", it's one thing... if it's "fighting for your life", it's entirely another. Do you use the technique to create an armlock, or to break the elbow and destroy their weapon?.. so the lengths to which technique is allowed to go also has a lot to do with how effective it is. How that art blends into other arts also is a consideration to how effective it is.

It's easy to start bashing other arts and talking about their weaknesses, while not acknowledging the weaknesses of your own. Those are a matter of training, training methods, and how you actually practice (real or scenario) and how "alive" that training is allowed to go. Is it "contest alive" or "real life alive"?

I've read a lot of "bashing" on these boards, usually expressed by someone training in another art that's just parroting what they hear in their gym or dojo. The most of the time, it's by "newbies" that know just enough to get killed in a fight, and need to show their bravado . Their attitude changes when they run into one of those 900 psi lunge punches from a karate master, or one of those 2200 psi roundhouse kicks.

It takes years to learn and understand fighting. While younger people have the ability and flexibility to do some amazing things, they don't necessarily have what it takes to win in the real world. The old saying "old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill" is more true than you'd want to admit. I've seen too many of the "deer in the lights looks" from youngsters that really thought they "had it" when they fought one of the older guys with a bigger toolbox of techniques. I've even done techniques on people who practiced the same technique, but didn't do it as well as I did, and see their eyes opened when they found out what could be involved in it.

Which arts are useless and which ones are not are just discussions. The real answers are found out on the floor and in the scenario where "all options are available" and winning and losing are a matter of who can walk away.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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