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#351083 - 07/11/07 02:46 PM Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch
Cadfael Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 7
Hello All,

I am new to this site and I am glad that I have found it because I hope to be able to share and gain knowledge with other like minded people.

I need some imput on a subject regarding the JKD lead punch. In my opinion though I am not certain, it seems to be that at the end of this punch there would have to be a slight curve in the punch for the sake of added power instead of throwing the blow completely straight.In otherwords, the punch is straight all the way through the punch except for a slight curve at the end. Another thought that I am wondering about this punch is that when a person delivers a horizonal punch with torc it seems to be more powerful than the JKD lead as I understand the JKD lead. However, the JKD lead is faster than the horizonal. Does the speed create the power lost when a person switches to the vertical fist? If anyone and all could give me some info on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,
Cadfael

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#351084 - 07/11/07 03:55 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: Cadfael]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Slight curve? What do you mean? Bend of the elbow? Bend of the wrist? Turning of the wrist? Curving the trajectory of the strike itself?
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#351085 - 07/11/07 08:08 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: Cadfael]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Sometimes my instructor calls this punch the short arc return. It comes out straight and moves slightly towards the inside upon full extension. I'm assuming here that you're talking about the trajectory of the hand.
To me it feels as though the power is more or less the same for both hand positions, but I've heard other people agree with you that one is more powerful and the other is faster. And we train both, not to mention the diagonal fist.
The vertical fist is definitely more deceptive because the elbow stays facing downwards and the movement from the Bai Jong is minimal. Instead of moving onto the centre line, it travels down it for optimum efficiency (saying this, the hands don't just sit on the centre line before throwing the shot but ever so slightly cross it making the tan and bill sau parries work a hell of a lot better too). The vertical fist also adds a little extra reach and the power comes slightly upwards directly off the body. Instead of feeling a ripple of power coming up the body and one part contracting before the other, its more like an instant contraction of all required muscles (it does however begin at the centre of gravity with a contraction of the transverse abdominis and you must be completely relaxed beforehand). So instead of just a whip, you're getting a whip AND a push from the ground. I don't think the speed is the only thing that makes up for the slight loss of torque but also the big drive through from the legs on impact. This is in accordance with Newton's law of conservation of momentum in that it's not only speed times force but also the amount of time that the fist is in contact with the target that increases the amount of momentum delivered. So its the force of your entire body in it's strongest position travelling at the highest speed possible, pushing AND snapping throught the target.

Maybe its a matter of preference, but when entering with straight punches, my sparring has evolved in such a way that I naturally use jkd straight shots with a vertical fist. It just feels right, and I've always been told that if it feels right, it's probably right. In all truth, you're going to have to practice both until you come to the conclusion yourself.
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Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#351086 - 07/12/07 07:27 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: jkdwarrior]
Cadfael Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 7
Hello Mattj and JKD Warrior,
Thank you both for replying. I realise that my post was not as clear as it should have been. I apologise for that. I was in a hurry, but that is no excuse. However, JKD warrior did well in understanding my thoughts. I shall study the thoughts closely. As a result MattJ you could maybe have produced the same thoughts as well. I was just not clear. Therefore, I understand the confusion. I will give my thoughts on JKD Warriors thoughts after I have studied them in detail.

Thank you both,
Cadfael

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#351087 - 07/12/07 07:46 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: Cadfael]
Cadfael Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 7
Yes, The short arc return fits my thougts perfectly. If I remember correctly, I think that term may also be called The Short Arc Principle.As regards my thoughts on trajectory, it always seemed to me based upon some pics of Bruce Lee that I saw in Bruce Lee's Fighting Volume 3 that the JKD punch ended perfectly straight. Mr. Lee was using his nose as a guide point in the book to show the end result of the trajectory. However, for me as an individual I concluded that maybe I could attain more power by giving a slight curve at the end of the punch. To be more clear here is my break down of the punch as I understand it:

1.Punch begins from bobbing hands moving straight with a vertical fist.
2.Shoulders turn.
3.waist turns.
4.rear foot pivots.
5.Punch curves at end and strikes target and snaps back.

I see more clearly now that the short arc return, maximum speed, and full body movement probably makes up for the lack of torque. Thanks.

I can understand why Bruce Lee would have used such a technique as this because he would need a punching method that would have to be fully complementary to the intercepting technique. He needed the maximum speed that the horizontal punch could not deliver, so that he could intercept properly. I must say that it all makes sense.

The straight blast would be different of course in that the straight blast is rapidly fired perfectly straight jabs. The power is not an issue here because the straight blast is used as a set up attack for a finishing move. The straight Blast would be used from a more square stance I would imagine.

I am going to study Sir Isaac Newtons physics on this matter and will get back to you all. I would like to speak on the subject of the straight blast if possible.

Thank you for you have been helpful,
Cadfael


Edited by Cadfael (07/12/07 08:20 PM)

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#351088 - 07/13/07 08:05 AM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: Cadfael]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
If you can find some videos on fencing, you'll see that they have the same idea. Learn to lunge with your jab like those guys, and it'll be hard to see coming. I think I remember reading in one of Bruce's books that its like fencing without the sword.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#351089 - 07/13/07 02:20 PM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: jkdwarrior]
Cadfael Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 7
Yes, I will find some info regarding the lunge in fencing. I know of a book that will be easilly accesible to me that has stop photo animation that shows how moves are performed in fencing. I will look into the videos as well probably on amazon.com.


Thanks cadfael

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#351090 - 09/24/07 07:36 AM Re: Jeet Kune Do Lead Punch [Re: Cadfael]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi Cadfael,

I understand this thread is old, but in case you are checking it from time to time I thought I would add a little that may help.

It is hard to find, but if you can get a copy of Jack Dempseys book 'Championship Fighting' , you may find some of the answers your looking for on the straight lead.

Study the sections on 'Falling Step', 'What is a punch' & 'Straight punching from the whirl'. There are also many other sections of the book worth checking out.

Also keep 'Simple' and 'Direct' in mind. The arc I believe you are talking about can cause 'Vectoring' and as you get more comfortable with the straight lead shorten that arc till it is no longer there. Straight in (Wrist abduction upon contact) and straight out.

As your researching your punches remember what Bruce lee said, "Before I learned the arts a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick, when I studied the arts a punch was no longer a punch and kick was no longer a kick, now that I understand the arts a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick".

Good luck
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