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#350876 - 07/10/07 04:57 PM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: MattJ]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Matt...

I'm talking about the art itself & training the full curriculum of that art. That may include sparring or it may be just exercizes.

I believe that since these techniques are in the kata, they should not be ignored. That's not to say that simply performing the kata will give you the skill & knowledge of how to apply those techniques. If it doesn't work w/ resistance you either need to train more or it's not a valid technique.

Often, the throw, take-down or joint-lock will be hidden, disguised or done in a generic manner so it's unrecognizable to the untrained eye.

Since karate is a striking art, I interpret the striking as either stand-alone techniques or a gateway to control techniques. That's why I don't believe in different fighting distances (but that's another thread).

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#350877 - 07/10/07 05:19 PM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: hedkikr]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Your question is interesting. You say you are looking for reply from those who only practice one art and non MMA schools. If that is the case, then you must not be talking about classical okinawan karate. The art I study as well as old style karate was always taught after a student has a solid foundation in some form of grappling. Shoshin Nagamine has referred to his teachers training in Okinawan Sumo and "karate wrestling" before ever beginning training in the classical okinawan kata. I was lucky because I wrestled in high school as I was studying karate. I have always used my wrestling in my karate and used it to apply techniques from the kata. Mind you this was in 1990 before anyone knew anything about MMA. I will also maintain that throwing/locking/grappling in karate is not an advanced practice, but a foundation upon a karateka's skill is built and should be introduced in the first couple of years if not from the beginning.

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#350878 - 07/10/07 06:11 PM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: hedkikr]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt...

I'm talking about the art itself & training the full curriculum of that art. That may include sparring or it may be just exercizes.




In that case, then yes, we did many kinds of throws and locks in AKK. Wrist locks, standing arm bars and shoulder locks, hip and shoulder throws, buckles and sweeps, etc.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#350879 - 07/10/07 06:40 PM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: MattJ]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
In my Shotokan school locks take downs and throws were introduced after the first 3 months of training and the amount one learned and their complexity was increased gradually as one progessed.

Their use was also heavily encouraged in sparring.
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#350880 - 07/11/07 04:10 AM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: butterfly]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 809
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Agreeing with Sempai Brad, (I also study Ashihara, UK style). Although I have found many locks withing the Ashihara Katas from the last combination in Shoshin ichi, involving an 'arm bar' upwards.
Wado Ryu (my other style) - well this has Jujutsu/shotokan roots so its full of all Striking / Throwing / Locking techniques.

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#350881 - 07/11/07 07:58 AM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: Shonuff]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

In my Shotokan school locks take downs and throws were introduced after the first 3 months of training and the amount one learned and their complexity was increased gradually as one progessed.

Their use was also heavily encouraged in sparring.




We are basically the same as this. I have the benefit of havinga sensei who also is ranked in Aikido, so a lot of our bunkai and just general partner work has a strong aiki flare to it.
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#350882 - 07/11/07 08:27 AM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: hedkikr]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
As a renegade ( ) bunch of semi-ex-Shotokan people plus some Wado and Shorin groups, we practice the basic arm/wrist/finger locks recognisable to aikidoka (kotogaeshi, tenshinage, ikkyo, nikkyo et al) and found in the kata if you look, plus neck cranks, sweeps, hip throws and throws mostly by the body/limbs/head/groin and neck rather than by the jacket judo style. We practice defence against grabs of the limbs and jacket followed by strikes though...

B.

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#350883 - 07/13/07 12:19 PM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: hedkikr]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Ours, Ruykyu Hon Kenpo, included a good number of throws, chokes and locks. Ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, gokyo, kotegesh. Osoto gari, ogoshi, tani and tai otoshi, koshi garuma, seionage, hiza garuma, O and ko ichi gari, more I forget. Three choke, four gatames.

As far as "...use (not just acknowledge) throwing/locking techniques on a regular basis?"

Used on a regular basis, this slims WAAAAY down. Osoto gari, tai and tani otoshi for the throws. Ikkyo a lot. Gokyo some. Rear choke is pretty natural now.

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#350884 - 07/15/07 01:02 PM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: jpoor]
pmt Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Ireland
just repling to the question re:using throws as opposed to just acknowledging them. I do teach them as a basic principle of course only with proper mats repeated dumping hurts. Use in competition it is rare but the possibility exists, competition is not of primary concern self defense is, in those situations opponents are much closer and the technique is more applicable when at closer range.

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#350885 - 07/19/07 07:35 AM Re: Striking / Throwing / Locking [Re: jpoor]
SamW Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 21
There are "layers" to bunkai for kata. As an example, kick/punch block is one layer. Adding traps, locks, joint manipulation is another. Each layer goes deeper. The layers aren't there because of "secrets", but because each level requires better balance, movement, structure and timing that takes time to develop.

So- yes, such techniques are part of karate.


Edited by SamW (07/19/07 07:36 AM)

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