FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 31 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 8
AndyLA 5
futsaowingchun 4
ergees 2
VDJ 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
The Karate punch
by Dobbersky
08/12/14 05:14 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
A post for those who might become martial artists.
by AndyLA
08/06/14 07:25 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35571 Topics
432473 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#350086 - 07/06/07 10:45 AM Police and traffic safety
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

Quote:

No-one seems to have considered the 'other' function of police work. Namely, to enforce and ensure the 'status quo' between differing sectors of society remains intact. As is evidenced in the UK when 'the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

They (the police) are also a tax gathering organisation with 'the motorist' being their 'cash cow'. Why else would there be as many 'safety cameras' as they are now called on sections of road where there has never been an accident?




I agree that alot of traffic enforcement has NOTHING to do with public safety. Unmarked cruisers? Cops hiding while running radar? Complete BS. If they were really interested in traffic safety, they wouldn't be hidden at all. Who speeds when cops are in plain sight?

That said, the police are only enforcing the laws that have been made by others. If the public would stop being pu$$ies, we wouldn't allow stupid laws or court rulings. The people get the government they deserve.




Totally agree. Some spot on statements in your post.

edited to change title


Edited by MattJ (07/08/07 09:54 PM)

Top
#350087 - 07/08/07 10:44 PM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: Midnightcrawler]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I have split this from the Police interrogation technique thread here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...39#Post15950512

To keep that one on topic. All traffic replies should go in this thread. I do stand by my assertion that most traffic enforcement in the USA is based on revenue accumulation, not safety. Many studies have indicated that speed itself is not necessarily a contributing factor in accidents, although I agree that higher speeds make accidents more severe when they happen. Here are some that I found:

http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/02/292.asp

This is simply a convienient way to fleece the public, whilst sounding morally high-handed. Please note that I am not recommending breaking any laws - just pointing out stupid ones. Rural stop sign enforcement is another one. Many other countries use "Yeild" or "Give Way" signs in merge areas where traffic is very low volume. To have police hiding at these intersections to pounce on motorists that creep through, without coming to a FULL DEAD STOP is silly.

With 'road rage' drivers a much greater menace, I find that apportioning officers for a useless detail like this is an insulting waste of MY tax dollars.

And so on......
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#350088 - 07/08/07 11:52 PM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: MattJ]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
Quote:


I have provided supporting evidence that there is a significant relationship between speeding and road fatalities ( a fraction of what is available).




In every crash involving a fatality, the vehicles had tires. There is therefore a relationship between tires and fatalities.

In every crash involving a fatality, there was oxygen in the air. There is therefore a relationship between oxygen and fatalities.


I have now provided you with evidence that there is a relationship (also known as a correlation) between tires/oxygen and traffic fatalities.

As we learn in statistics 101, correlation does not indicate causation. Driving fast does not automatically mean you are going to die. I'd rather have well trained drivers doing 100mph than have American drivers doing 55.

Quote:

the 50 deaths per year have been directly contributed to speeding, we have considerable more deaths that may have speed as a factor but the contributing factor is deemed as more influential to the outcome ( for eg drink driving, driver fatigue ).




If you firmly believe that, say, red paint is very unsafe, and you see a wreck involving a car that is painted red, your natural conclusion will be that the red paint was a "contributing factor." You'll be dead wrong, but the nasty thing about pre-conceived beliefs is that they tend to crowd out your ability to consider other possibilities.

For decades we've been brainwashed into thinking that speed kills. Because of that brainwashing, when we hear of a wreck in which someone was going fast, we automatically blame the speed. We don't blame the atrocious driver training that led to the moron behind the wheel deciding to do something that caused the crash. We don't blame the fact that we don't teach driving students how to handle the car in emergency situations. We don't blame the fact that people get to keep their licenses even when they've proven time and again that they're mouth-breathing idiots behind the wheel.

Quote:

to pretend that speed is simply "blamed" as a form of scape goat is being simply naive.
"Speed doesn't kill crashes do",
what a load of crap




You can sit there and think it's a load of crap all you want. You can think it's a load of crap that video games are not to blame for school violence. But while you sit there believing these false ideas, people will still die on the roads and students will still get shot in schools because rather than addressing the real problems, people will keep blaming scapegoats.

Quote:

thats like saying the bullet didn't kill it was the shredding of the vital organs that kills,




No, it isn't, but really nice try. Speed does not kill. Go 100mph some time. Assuming you don't crash, you won't die, even though you are engaging in "speed." The speed will not kill you. Screwing up while traveling that speed, might well kill you. So if you want to go that fast, it would behoove you to learn how not to screw up while doing so, wouldn't it?

Quote:


The evidence is clear as is the physics, the faster you go the longer it takes to stop - result - there is greater chance of hitting an object or person




So at what point do you decide to draw the line? I mean, an impact at 10mph is certainly less likely to kill you than an impact at 55. Why not lower speed limits to something totally safe?

Further, how do you resolve the fact that there are fewer fatalities on the extremely-high-speed autobahn than there are on the low speed interstates? If speed kills, the autobahn should be a bloodbath.


Quote:

( maybe someone's child)




That's asinine. You're suggesting a child is more valuable than an adult? You're just trying to run an emotional argument here in order to shore up an incredibly week logical argument.

Quote:

you have much less time to react -see the vids I posted




Again, are you suggesting we lower limits to 10mph?

Quote:

The faster you travel the greater the impact of a collision- result - you will cause more damage to the object or person




The heavier the object the more damage you'll cause too, but I don't see you fighting against SUV's and big-assed cars. and yet again, you seem to be suggesting it'd be a good idea to lower speed limits to absurdly low numbers.

Quote:

( maybe your child)




More emotional appeal to distract from a weak logic point.


Quote:

simple physics provide scientific evidence of the effect of speeding thanks to me newton.




Simple collision physics won't come into play if you don't collide with anything. Teach people to drive well and you'll reduce the rate of collisions. You'll end up saving more people than by having artificially low speed limits.

Quote:


well for one thing there are 1 000's of more people within these zones, there will be 1000's of more cars on the road in 60 km/h zones, makes sense seeing these are the urban and suburban areas.




Sure, that's a given. But I don't think anyone's suggesting that we up the speed limits to 150mph on crowded downtown city streets. But you Aussies don't have a monopoly on long-assed stretches of nearly empty roads. The USA is a much larger country geographically than you guys are. If you want to get from state to state you're gonna be in the car for many hours. I make a drive at least once a month that takes me 4.5 hours at legal speeds. I could easily go almost twice those speeds safely for most of that trip because it's on long stretches of 4 lane highways that don't have many cars on them.

Quote:


Of the fatalities that occur in these lower speed zones many ( at least 30%) involved vehicles traveling above the posted speed limit. ie they were speeding.

so other then the considerable difference between the number of people in these zones what other factors come into play.




Driving too fast for conditions is different from the blanket statement that speed kills. Speed doesn't kill. Speed combined with other factors kills. Of course if you're doing 100 in a crowd of cars going 30, bad things will happen. But if you're doing 100 in light traffic, all of which is also going 100, you're pretty safe.

Quote:

you mention the difference between the no of deaths on the autobahn compared to the US highways. well for one thing you mentioned "the unlimited sections of the autobahn" I imaging that the section of the road is designed for speed, i imagine that section is very well maintained. why isn't all the autobahn limitless speed.




As you said, some parts of the autobahn are too crowded and have to have slower speeds. But the Germans are smart enough to realize that, while 60kph might be required in some places for safety's sake, it's OK to go a lot faster in areas where the road is much safer. the USA isn't quite that smart. 65 is considered just as safe through the Milwaukee metro area as it is in remote areas of Wisconsin. Now, either we're driving too fast in Milwaukee, or we're driving artificially slow elsewhere.

You're also correct in that the autobahn is a better designed roadway. Thicker concrete, banked turns, wide shoulders. .. They even have deer warning lights lining the trees on the sides of the road. But that's no excuse for the USA. Our roads certainly do suck, but rather than using that as an excuse to keep speeds artificially low, why not use that as a stimulus to improve the roads?. It's way past time they got better.

Quote:

The US highway system is a hell of a lot greater in length then the autobahns it would be impossible to maintain the entire highway system to the same level as the limitless section of the autobahn.




Bah. Not hardly. We have a ready workforce to keep the highways and all our other infrastructure maintained. They're called prisoners

Quote:

that might be why they have placed a speed limit on them, to indicate the max speed appropriate for the road.




In some cases - - but there are plenty of straight smooth sections of interstate that could be traveled on a lot faster than 65mph.


Quote:

Finally when traveling at greater speed a driver will be more vigilant and cautious, infact they will probably drive "safer" then at lower speeds. this is because there is a danger with traveling at these kind of speeds and when ever there is a danger present the human ( and any other animal) will be more vigilant and aware then normal.




That would seem to be an argument that speed does not kill

Quote:


Speed limits are generally determined to keep motorists safe for the conditions of the road or environment.




Nope. Wrong. States set a max speed for the interstates. Usually between 60 and 70mph. Even on long stretches of nearly empty, straight highway, you can't go faster than the state maximum. It'd be safe to do 100, assuming you know how to drive, but the speed limits aren't set there.

Quote:

yes I will admit that at times it appears that some areas seem to be limited to "trap drivers" but in general you will find that these places have a history of MVA's.




Uh, no. Show me where you got that. Speed traps are set up specifically because the stretch of road they're on will support much higher speeds, so the tendency is to maintain a normal speed, at which point you get a ticket.

Quote:

If speed doesn't kill then would you agree that all speed limits should be removed and people allowed to travel at any speed that desire,




On interstates, combined with a good driver training and licensing program, absolutely.

Quote:


And could you provide some actual evidence as to your autobahn and US highway comparison. please.




Here's a quote from an article by Forbes' James Clash in September of 2006:

Quote:

More than half of the 11,000-kilometer (6,835-mile) German Autobahn system has no speed limit. It is perfectly legal there, for example, to pass a police car at 200 km/h (124 mph). In fact, according to Mark Rask, author of 1999’s American Autobahn, the average speed for cars is 130 km/h (81 mph); at any given moment, 15 percent are traveling 155 km/h (96 mph) or faster. Surprisingly, the Autobahn is safer than U.S. highways. In 2001, the death rate there was 27 percent lower (0.59 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled versus 0.81 per million for the U.S. interstates), according to Rask.
Why? Drivers in Germany must be at least 18 years old and fork over more than $1,000 to undergo 24 hours of rigorous private instruction, including training on the Autobahn, and pass a comprehensive written test before obtaining a license. Compare this to the U.S., with no required training and a minimum age of 16 in some states. Also, unlike in the U.S., Germans use the left lane only for passing. Roads over there are built better, too -- a 70-centimeter (27.5-inch) roadbed versus 28 centimeters (11 inches) in the U.S. -- and are better maintained. So are German cars made by BMW and Mercedes, which handle easier at high speeds and sustain less collision damage.




Quote:

if you travel at more then the speed limit you are breaking the law




I'm not suggesting that we speed. I'm suggesting that the laws are artificially restrictive.

Quote:

and according to the previous Pope (John Paul) you are also sinning.




To be quite frank, I don't really give a rat's behind if the pope thinks I'm sinning or not. I don't agree with him, his church, or his policies. And before he runs around accusing me of being a sinner, maybe he should consider stopping his employees from raping the altar boys. Maybe he should consider not protecting the priests who do rape little boys. Until the Catholic church cleans up that big stinking problem in their back yard, I'll thank them to keep their nose out of my speedometer.
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

Top
#350089 - 07/09/07 01:01 AM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: shadowkahn]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
I refuse to argue this with you or any one else ( ok maybe a little). like most members of this forum you simply say I am wrong with out providing one line of evidence other then your own conjecture as proff to my incorrectness.

I do not understand why you feel the need to justify your obvious disregard for the law. you like to travel fast fair enough the male brain is especially susceptible to moving an object through space as quickly as possible. But a public road is not a responsible place to get your fix of speed , not when there are safer and responsible alternatives. Your arguments seem to be based on a very small section of the worlds roads that I have already provided reasons for their superior statistics. Save your speeding for these designated roads, which by the way is not illegal to travel fast on therefore it is not speeding as commonly defined. these sections of the road have been deemed save to travel at unrestricted speeds on. You did not answer my question as to why there is limits on the other half of the autobahn system

You can live with your head in the sand or with your government conspiracy paranoia. it it seems to me that you are more interested in saying I am wrong then acknowledging the statistical supported fact that speeding is a major contributor to road fatalities. I am not and have not suggested it is the only factor nor Have I said it is the cause of it. But there is a relationship with a strong correlation ( which, contrary to your definition, represents the strength of the relationship between to variables.)

cause can only be determined in an experiment and not by observation. the statistics speak for them selves. two things are indicated.

1 - speeding is a significant contributor to road fatalities. ( not the only)
2 - An accident which involves speeding is more likely to produce a fatality then one without speeding.

if you can provide any evidence that actually proves either of these two statements wrong then please do so. (and providing an alternative to the cause does not produce proof) Don't even bother responding if you cannot provide the evidence.

That is all i am saying on this subject, the law is the law whether you like it or not. the facts speak for them selves, and everything i have said has been backed by supporting third party studies.

if I continue arguing this we both will be covered in mud , but you will enjoy it.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

Top
#350090 - 07/09/07 05:57 AM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: shadowkahn]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Shadowkahn,

Well-thought post, but you lost me on one point.

Who is it directed at? I can't figure that out. Sorry for being stupid, WoW kind of toasted my brains.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#350091 - 07/09/07 08:50 AM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: drgndrew]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
Quote:

I refuse to argue this with you or any one else ( ok maybe a little). like most members of this forum you simply say I am wrong with out providing one line of evidence other then your own conjecture as proff to my incorrectness.




Well .. yeah. . . except of course for providing you with the statistics that show the autobahn is safer than US highways. . .but other than that tiny little piece of evidence which flies in the face of the "speed kills" BS, I guess you're right



Quote:

I do not understand why you feel the need to justify your obvious disregard for the law.




I never said I speed. I said the speed limits are too low. I'm not disregarding the law, I'm advocating changing it.

Quote:

you like to travel fast fair enough the male brain is especially susceptible to moving an object through space as quickly as possible. But a public road is not a responsible place to get your fix of speed , not when there are safer and responsible alternatives.




Which I use. I get my "fix of speed" on the race track, not the highway.

Quote:

Save your speeding for these designated roads, which by the way is not illegal to travel fast on therefore it is not speeding as commonly defined.




So you're now retracting your original position and saying that, rather than speed kills, it should be speedING kills?

Quote:

these sections of the road have been deemed save to travel at unrestricted speeds on. You did not answer my question as to why there is limits on the other half of the autobahn system




Yes I did. Read again.


Quote:

You can live with your head in the sand or with your government conspiracy paranoia.




Government conspiracy? Are we reading the same post? I never said it was a conspiracy.

Quote:

it it seems to me that you are more interested in saying I am wrong then acknowledging the statistical supported fact that speeding is a major contributor to road fatalities.




I'm more interested in finding the actual cause of traffic wrecks than in blaming some BS scape goat that will make people feel good about themselves while not solving anything.

Quote:

I am not and have not suggested it is the only factor nor Have I said it is the cause of it. But there is a relationship with a strong correlation ( which, contrary to your definition, represents the strength of the relationship between to variables.)




Go look up statistics again. I can give you a correlation of just about anything to anything. Every day that someone has a heart attack the sun rises. Therefore there's a correlation between the sun rising and having a heart attack. Every time there's a rape someone somewhere sneezes. Therefore there's a correlation between sneezing and rape. Correlations are statistically meaningless. They might suggest to you an area for further study to see if there's a causal relationship between two things, but they do not in and of themselves prove that causal relationship.


Quote:

1 - speeding is a significant contributor to road fatalities. ( not the only)




Once again, you've switched. You're now talking about speedING, not speed. I'm advocating raising or eliminating speed limits where safe - speedING would then no longer be an issue. You have still failed to prove that SPEED, not speeding, kills.


Quote:


if I continue arguing this we both will be covered in mud , but you will enjoy it.




What exactly is that supposed to mean?
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

Top
#350092 - 07/09/07 08:52 AM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: shadowkahn]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
No, 'speed' doesn't kill. Impact does. Been in several car accidents, been hit by a car (as well as two members of my family), had a loved one die in a car crash. All other factors taken into consideration, speed is a significant factor in force of impact.

'Speeding' is actually a pet peeve of mine, as I'm certain most of the roadkill I see every day wouldn't occur if folks just used the posted limit as the 'top speed in optimal conditions' point of view. Road speed is determined by formula...by slope, width, line of sight, etc. Personally, I think police have better things to do than garner town funds by laying in wait for speeders...like catch some white collar criminals. BUT, that is a focus that comes from top down. If people want that to change...they have to be vocal in their town and state governments as to what they want as a focus.

Top
#350093 - 07/09/07 12:44 PM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: Taison]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
Quote:

Shadowkahn,

Well-thought post, but you lost me on one point.

Who is it directed at? I can't figure that out. Sorry for being stupid, WoW kind of toasted my brains.

-Taison out




It's a continuation of the split topic - - a mod split the police interrogation topic and moved the speed limit debate to this one. Kinda confusing I know
_________________________
"Belt mean no need rope hold up pants" - Mr. Miyagi, RIP.

Top
#350094 - 07/09/07 01:32 PM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: shadowkahn]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Ok...

SpeedING kills, not speed.

I drive fast, but I drive safe and within the road laws. If however, I was to go beyond that limit where it become practically dangerous, then it's not speed that'll kill me, it's the impact resulting from acceleration and the insecurities associated with it.

For people who have less IQ like me; If I drive safe and don't exceed the speed limit = safe. If I drive faster than the speed limit = (censored) start happening and the results may be fatal. Now why does it become fatal? Because if I was to go over the recommended limit, I'd be an idiot and expose myself to silly risks. Now what is the main cause of the accident? Speed or stupidity? I'd go with the latter.

In BKK, on the highways, cars can drive upto 130km and yet very few accidents happens when compared to the more common roads where the speed limit has been set at 80, yet so much accidents happens everyday. The main reason? Not sure, but I'd credit it to bad command of the vehicle and bad choice of decision.

I agree with what Shadowkahn has posted so far in this post, haven't been in the mood to backtrack to the older posts in the other thread.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#350095 - 07/09/07 01:56 PM Re: Police and traffic safety [Re: Taison]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'd say it is the mis-use of speed which kills.

An earlier post laments that many drivers aren't taught how to react in an emergency situation and yet those situations often arise because someone is mis-using their speed or driving faster than they have the ability to control.

I think there is something to be said for advanced training in vehicles. The amount of times I see an in experienced driver THINK they can do something fast (in a non-emergency) and almost fail is astounding.

Likewise I think there is a problem with a driver having too muich speed and abusing it. Daily I drive along a narrow rural road which has trees at the side (nowhere to go if you leave the road except around a tree) and daily at least two or three idiots will use their super power and acceleration to overtake 3 or 4 cars at a time in the face of oncoming traffic. Funnily it is known as a death road.

Interestingly, drining on German autobahns (no speed limit) there seems to be less accidents because the people using them know HOW to use them. There isn't the mix of slowsters and speed-demons.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, RazorFoot, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga