I'd like to start a discussion and get everyone's thoughts on the gi/no-gi training approach.

What do you like better?

What do you feel the major differences are?

How does one help with the other?

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice?

Just curious. I'll share my opinions as we go.


-John

What do you like better? I like gi grappling better.

What do you feel the major differences are? In gi grappling it is slower paced which allows for longer set ups. Gi also gives you something to grab onto and though you sweat, gi-less makes things harder to hold onto plus escaping can be easier. For myself it gives me time to think whereas in no gi I am scrabbling more. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy no gi as well and with added ground 'n pound even better.

How does one help the other? It sure makes me think, that is for sure. Each makes me appreciate the other as they have so much in common, less the gi and speed. I think with no gi if you can get things set up and pull them off they can make gi grappling better. In the same respect if you can continually pull off moves in gi grappling then with time you should be able to do this with no gi.

Habits; detrimental? Cooking I find happens much more in gi grappling allowing you to stall and collect yourself which if you are not careful, in no gi you may end up finding things reversed. With gi you get in the habit of being able to hold onto something to perform many finishing moves while in no gi you don't have that option. I always find it good to try the same moves in gi grappling by using friction grips or by grabbing/trapping body parts so you don't solely rely on the gi.

When training I personally like starting with the gi and then later remove and go without and try the same things; which I find extremely more difficult. No gi is faster paced and I find I burn out quicker then say gi where I can relax at many points in the rolling game. Like them both but liking with gi currently.

What do you like better? No-gi grappling. I find I can really build momentum on the ground, as I'm not a big fan of holding. It's also harder to submit people as obviously there is no sleeve or pant cuff (sometimes) to grab.

What do you feel the major differences are? Contrary to popular belief, slipperiness is NOT a big difference IMO. The only difference I've found is that certain armlocks are easier to get out of because it's easier to escape someone holding your wrist than your sleeve. The only time I've noticed slipping is when I've gone for rear mount, other than that, it's more or less the same in that front. However, a big difference for me is that in Gi grappling people are always hanging onto you, so I have a hard time building any kind of speed, which [censored] me off.

How does one help with the other? I think no-gi helps with transitions, and I think Gi helps with pins. I have no proof for either of those, I just think that.

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice? For me? Yes. I suck hard at Gi grappling because (obviously) I stick to no-gi. I tend not to take grips in Gi grappling, so I tend to have to try and outspeed my opponent. Gi grappling obviously might make it so that people can not do most of their submissions in no-gi, if they were to grab sleeves and collars. Personally, I probably only have a handful of submissions I can't do in no-gi, but strangely, I can do less in Gi.

Let me first say I think it is useful to train in both.

What do you like better? Gi grappling, but we do one No Gi grappling class once a month.

What do you feel the major differences are? With a gi you have a lot more to grab onto. Also, gi's are durable they normally do not ripe. I don't want a student having to worry about there shirt ripping during training.

How does one help the other? No Gi will help you deal with sweat better. Grabbing a sweaty arm will improve your grip strength. Also, it is hard to throw someone when they are just wearing a t-shirt. They help each other because you need a different game plan while using the same techniques.

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice? Well I think the habits are different per person. For me I tend to go for more sweeps when not wearing a Gi. I think the biggest habit is when someone thinks of each way as something different. You can use all the same techniques even though the clothes have changed.

My opinion --



No gi has always been my preference. I didn’t like the feeling of restraint when rolling in a gi. Part of that is that I started off doing no-gi and as that was what I’d first done, I felt that was the better way.

Now I understand that both is preferred (even if that ratio is 75/25 in favor of no-gi). Preferred for no other reason that you become more well-rounded and able to play both games. It’s really hard to argue against that logic. Thus I don’t and have begun to do more gi training as of late.

So I’ve noticed a few things.

* The game is a little slower, but not necessarily less attribute based. I’ve seen guys roll like BULLS while wearing a gi and people play a slow, methodical and technical game while rolling NO gi.

* Much of the gi game revolves around having collar and sleeve control. All good, unless that collar and sleeve aren't available. Then you’re in a pickle because you’ve become so accustomed to using the cloth to control your opponent instead of his BODY. In that way, the cloth becomes a crutch. Not a good thing, IMO.

* Where I’ve found that the gi game helps with the no-gi is in terms of base. Your base becomes a bit better because it’s easier to sweep someone when they’re wearing a gi. For that reason, one’s guard passing will improve. That said, adjustments will still have to be made in terms of guard passing for no-gi, especially if one has been accustomed to using the cloth to assist the pass.

* You become more aware of posture as well in the guard. If your posture isn’t good inside of someone’s guard, you’ll know it immediately (you’ll be swept or at least broken down). Posture is one of the better defenses against the collar chokes from within someone's guard.

Thus you learn quickly to establish and maintain excellent posture (I always focused on using good posture anyway, but still….)

* Wouldn’t it make more sense to play your gi game the way you’d play your NO gi game? I think that has merit. Eddie Bravo does. But it’s SO damned tempting to play that spider guard with the sleeves…………..

I’d like to provide a quote from Eddie Bravo here:

Quote:

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On the topic of Gi versus no-Gi; what are the big differences in both training for each and application on the mat?

The biggest difference between gi and no gi is the speed of the game. The gi game is slowed down by collar and sleeve control, while the no gi game is based on head and arm control. In the gi game, submissions are often set up with the collar, faking a choke attempt to take an arm or a triangle. Controlling your opponent can be a lot easier with the gi. In the no gi game, submissions can be a lot more difficult to set up especially with the sweat factor and controlling your opponent without the gi can be more difficult because the handles that the gi provides are not there. Less handles can equal less control which can lead to more scrambling which increases the speed of the game.

BUT, you'll only have more control running on pavement as opposed to running on ice until you learn to ice skate. (italics and bold are mine)

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And I think that last sentence really sums up my thinking on the subject of no-gi control.

Everyone thinks that you can’t easily control a guy when rolling no-gi. I find this to be completely wrong. It’s all a matter of learning to take advantage of the natural angles of the human body and understanding how to control those “choke points”.

Seems like the grips with the gi are nice and make things much easier for controlling movement. The problem is that those grips aren’t always available. Particularly in my locale.

I also believe that the no-gi game can help the gi game. This is true in terms of learning to control the body. When you learn to control the body of an opponent during no gi, training, it’s TEN times easier to control the body when he’s wrapped in canvas ,designed not to rip.

I’m going to keep coming back here however and posting what I find. My renewed interest in gi training should yield some interesting insights from a mostly no-gi aficionado. This newly acquired shoulder injury might slow things down a bit but what better time to begin playing a slower game?



-John

All good points.

I try to balance our training to where my students (and I as well) get an equal amount of gi and no gi time. The handles are different but the game is essentially the same.

Gi with new students can turn into a tug of war and can force an intermediate student to adapt his or her game in the guard by opening up and using four limbs against two. That ability to "maneuver" and outflank is the essence of the open guard and IMO, BJJ.

I like both equally. I like the friction the gi affords me and the freedom of no gi.

I would advise people to resist the temptation to specialize too early in their training. Learn the whole package, it will be a richer experience.

Excellent points Fletch. I wish I'd not specialized early on (didn't have a lot of choices) and had done both gi and no-gi.

Now I am and it's pretty cool. Having a better open guard these days has made it much more enjoyable to play the gi game.


-John