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#349651 - 07/03/07 11:16 PM Gi and No-Gi grappling
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I'd like to start a discussion and get everyone's thoughts on the gi/no-gi training approach.

What do you like better?

What do you feel the major differences are?

How does one help with the other?

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice?

Just curious. I'll share my opinions as we go.


-John

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#349652 - 07/04/07 02:06 AM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: JKogas]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
What do you like better? I like gi grappling better.

What do you feel the major differences are? In gi grappling it is slower paced which allows for longer set ups. Gi also gives you something to grab onto and though you sweat, gi-less makes things harder to hold onto plus escaping can be easier. For myself it gives me time to think whereas in no gi I am scrabbling more. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy no gi as well and with added ground 'n pound even better.

How does one help the other? It sure makes me think, that is for sure. Each makes me appreciate the other as they have so much in common, less the gi and speed. I think with no gi if you can get things set up and pull them off they can make gi grappling better. In the same respect if you can continually pull off moves in gi grappling then with time you should be able to do this with no gi.

Habits; detrimental? Cooking I find happens much more in gi grappling allowing you to stall and collect yourself which if you are not careful, in no gi you may end up finding things reversed. With gi you get in the habit of being able to hold onto something to perform many finishing moves while in no gi you don't have that option. I always find it good to try the same moves in gi grappling by using friction grips or by grabbing/trapping body parts so you don't solely rely on the gi.

When training I personally like starting with the gi and then later remove and go without and try the same things; which I find extremely more difficult. No gi is faster paced and I find I burn out quicker then say gi where I can relax at many points in the rolling game. Like them both but liking with gi currently.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#349653 - 07/04/07 02:57 AM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: JKogas]
Leonine Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 191
What do you like better? No-gi grappling. I find I can really build momentum on the ground, as I'm not a big fan of holding. It's also harder to submit people as obviously there is no sleeve or pant cuff (sometimes) to grab.

What do you feel the major differences are? Contrary to popular belief, slipperiness is NOT a big difference IMO. The only difference I've found is that certain armlocks are easier to get out of because it's easier to escape someone holding your wrist than your sleeve. The only time I've noticed slipping is when I've gone for rear mount, other than that, it's more or less the same in that front. However, a big difference for me is that in Gi grappling people are always hanging onto you, so I have a hard time building any kind of speed, which [censored] me off.

How does one help with the other? I think no-gi helps with transitions, and I think Gi helps with pins. I have no proof for either of those, I just think that.

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice? For me? Yes. I suck hard at Gi grappling because (obviously) I stick to no-gi. I tend not to take grips in Gi grappling, so I tend to have to try and outspeed my opponent. Gi grappling obviously might make it so that people can not do most of their submissions in no-gi, if they were to grab sleeves and collars. Personally, I probably only have a handful of submissions I can't do in no-gi, but strangely, I can do less in Gi.

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#349654 - 07/04/07 01:10 PM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: Leonine]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
Let me first say I think it is useful to train in both.

What do you like better? Gi grappling, but we do one No Gi grappling class once a month.

What do you feel the major differences are? With a gi you have a lot more to grab onto. Also, gi's are durable they normally do not ripe. I don't want a student having to worry about there shirt ripping during training.

How does one help the other? No Gi will help you deal with sweat better. Grabbing a sweaty arm will improve your grip strength. Also, it is hard to throw someone when they are just wearing a t-shirt. They help each other because you need a different game plan while using the same techniques.

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice? Well I think the habits are different per person. For me I tend to go for more sweeps when not wearing a Gi. I think the biggest habit is when someone thinks of each way as something different. You can use all the same techniques even though the clothes have changed.

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#349655 - 07/04/07 04:05 PM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

What do you like better?




No preference. No gi is more applicable to SD (as far as common dress in my area), IMHO. But gi-training makes me think more.

Quote:

What do you feel the major differences are?




Gi has more opportunities for different subs and more pace control. No gi can be harder to "slow down" the opponent.

Quote:

How does one help with the other?




Much of the practice is very similar. Just different details and options.

Quote:

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice?




Reliance of clothing-grips with gi can make no-gi a flustering experience. Constantly training no-gi can make you miss clothing-grip techniques that may be easier to get than other subs or friction grips, when going against a gi.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#349656 - 07/04/07 05:11 PM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: MattJ]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203

Quote:

What do you like better?




I like no-gi better.

Quote:

What do you feel the major differences are?




The grip or hold which changes most significantly the clinch game. The ground game is different too but I feel the clinch is affected more.

Quote:

How does one help with the other?




I donít think gi training really helps much with no-gi but no-gi does help with gi use. In Judo when I had trouble getting a good gi grip Iíd quickly switch to a no-gi hold. This seemed to confuse a lot of the judo players.

Quote:

Does either one produce habits which are detrimental for the other practice?




Imo no, sure you need to make adjustments when switching back and forth from gi to no-gi but itís all good grappling.

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#349657 - 07/04/07 08:27 PM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: ExCon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
My opinion --



No gi has always been my preference. I didnít like the feeling of restraint when rolling in a gi. Part of that is that I started off doing no-gi and as that was what Iíd first done, I felt that was the better way.

Now I understand that both is preferred (even if that ratio is 75/25 in favor of no-gi). Preferred for no other reason that you become more well-rounded and able to play both games. Itís really hard to argue against that logic. Thus I donít and have begun to do more gi training as of late.

So Iíve noticed a few things.

* The game is a little slower, but not necessarily less attribute based. Iíve seen guys roll like BULLS while wearing a gi and people play a slow, methodical and technical game while rolling NO gi.

* Much of the gi game revolves around having collar and sleeve control. All good, unless that collar and sleeve aren't available. Then youíre in a pickle because youíve become so accustomed to using the cloth to control your opponent instead of his BODY. In that way, the cloth becomes a crutch. Not a good thing, IMO.

* Where Iíve found that the gi game helps with the no-gi is in terms of base. Your base becomes a bit better because itís easier to sweep someone when theyíre wearing a gi. For that reason, oneís guard passing will improve. That said, adjustments will still have to be made in terms of guard passing for no-gi, especially if one has been accustomed to using the cloth to assist the pass.

* You become more aware of posture as well in the guard. If your posture isnít good inside of someoneís guard, youíll know it immediately (youíll be swept or at least broken down). Posture is one of the better defenses against the collar chokes from within someone's guard.

Thus you learn quickly to establish and maintain excellent posture (I always focused on using good posture anyway, but stillÖ.)

* Wouldnít it make more sense to play your gi game the way youíd play your NO gi game? I think that has merit. Eddie Bravo does. But itís SO damned tempting to play that spider guard with the sleevesÖÖÖÖ..

Iíd like to provide a quote from Eddie Bravo here:

Quote:

On the topic of Gi versus no-Gi; what are the big differences in both training for each and application on the mat?

The biggest difference between gi and no gi is the speed of the game. The gi game is slowed down by collar and sleeve control, while the no gi game is based on head and arm control. In the gi game, submissions are often set up with the collar, faking a choke attempt to take an arm or a triangle. Controlling your opponent can be a lot easier with the gi. In the no gi game, submissions can be a lot more difficult to set up especially with the sweat factor and controlling your opponent without the gi can be more difficult because the handles that the gi provides are not there. Less handles can equal less control which can lead to more scrambling which increases the speed of the game.

BUT, you'll only have more control running on pavement as opposed to running on ice until you learn to ice skate. (italics and bold are mine)




And I think that last sentence really sums up my thinking on the subject of no-gi control.

Everyone thinks that you canít easily control a guy when rolling no-gi. I find this to be completely wrong. Itís all a matter of learning to take advantage of the natural angles of the human body and understanding how to control those ďchoke pointsĒ.

Seems like the grips with the gi are nice and make things much easier for controlling movement. The problem is that those grips arenít always available. Particularly in my locale.

I also believe that the no-gi game can help the gi game. This is true in terms of learning to control the body. When you learn to control the body of an opponent during no gi, training, itís TEN times easier to control the body when heís wrapped in canvas ,designed not to rip.

Iím going to keep coming back here however and posting what I find. My renewed interest in gi training should yield some interesting insights from a mostly no-gi aficionado. This newly acquired shoulder injury might slow things down a bit but what better time to begin playing a slower game?



-John

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#349658 - 07/04/07 10:23 PM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: JKogas]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Everyone thinks that you canít easily control a guy when rolling no-gi. I find this to be completely wrong. Itís all a matter of learning to take advantage of the natural angles of the human body and understanding how to control those ďchoke pointsĒ.


Good point John, this is so true.

Quote:

Seems like the grips with the gi are nice and make things much easier for controlling movement. The problem is that those grips arenít always available. Particularly in my locale.



Imo most clothing makes a poor hand hold. Itís not just the T-shirts in hot weather but the parkas and mitts in cold weather too. Jean and leather jackets are the best for gi techniques. This is good because a lot of jerks wear these.


Quote:

I also believe that the no-gi game can help the gi game. This is true in terms of learning to control the body. When you learn to control the body of an opponent during no gi, training, itís TEN times easier to control the body when heís wrapped in canvas ,designed not to rip.



Another good point John.

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#349659 - 07/05/07 08:42 AM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: ExCon]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
All good points.

I try to balance our training to where my students (and I as well) get an equal amount of gi and no gi time. The handles are different but the game is essentially the same.

Gi with new students can turn into a tug of war and can force an intermediate student to adapt his or her game in the guard by opening up and using four limbs against two. That ability to "maneuver" and outflank is the essence of the open guard and IMO, BJJ.

I like both equally. I like the friction the gi affords me and the freedom of no gi.

I would advise people to resist the temptation to specialize too early in their training. Learn the whole package, it will be a richer experience.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#349660 - 07/05/07 05:38 PM Re: Gi and No-Gi grappling [Re: Fletch1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Excellent points Fletch. I wish I'd not specialized early on (didn't have a lot of choices) and had done both gi and no-gi.

Now I am and it's pretty cool. Having a better open guard these days has made it much more enjoyable to play the gi game.


-John

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