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#348387 - 06/27/07 12:35 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: ExCon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I hope all you people who are concerned about the coercive power of the state have followed the links. You lap dogs can keep licking the hand that beats you.




Ok brother, methinks thou doth protest too much.

The links are an interesting, if very tilted and inflammatory read. By the logic of the articles, police could be thought to be even more heroic, as they have no duty to protect you - but they very often do so anyway.

While disturbing, the Gonzales case would seem to be the exception and not the norm. I have personally witnessed police officers helping their fellow citizens many times.

The ruling from the courts actually seem to be common sense to me, in this litigious age we live in. There are far less police than the general population. There is no way they can possibly protect everyone, all the time. This does not always make them lazy or careless. It is simple mathematics.

To have them legally obligated to protect everyone, all the time, would result in never-ending lawsuits that would probably end police assistance as we know it. Not a great option, really.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#348388 - 07/01/07 04:24 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I find this whole thread offensive as hell.

I was a cop, and while I was a cop, I did my job. I didn't have any agendas, didn't beat people, and followed the law. Now it Pi$$ed off a whole lot of people who were selling drugs, running prostitutes, and trying to escape from jail... but I'm just sorry as I can be... I did what was necessary to keep the law intact and to keep people that were put in jail where they needed to be.

ExCon's depiction of the police is exactly what I got from everybody in jail. The cops were "doing something to them" and they were all "innocent victims" of the police...

Why not talk about some of the victims of these "elite citizens" we have had in jail... drug dealers, burglars, thieves of all kinds... and then the killers... like the guy I had who killed two people by beating them to death with a claw hammer. Outstanding citizens...

Those of us who actually respect the law, its enforcement, and don't go through life looking for ways to get around it most likely won't have any legal problems. That doesn't make you a "lap dog", just somebody that thinks society is better when people act like they should, and treat their fellow citizens with the same kind of respect they want people to show them.

I don't steal my neighbor's stuff... I don't sell his kids drugs... and I don't beat him up to pay for my stuff... Call me crazy, but if you don't think that way, you wouldn't be having all these issues with "the police".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#348389 - 07/01/07 10:29 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
With a user handle like that, it certainly doesn't help your case... ExCon

I think what you're trying to say is "Bottom line - know your rights". If you're innocent, you have nothing to fear, but make sure you get a damn good lawyer. If you're guilty as hell, keep your mouth shut and make sure you get a damn good lawyer.

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#348390 - 07/02/07 11:02 AM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: eyrie]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
Quote:

Canadian Legal Rights:

Here in Canada, you have the “RIGHT” upon arrest or investigation to speak with legal counsel. I would hope that all of us here on the forum are “good guys and gals” and it is because of this fact, that unlike the bad guys who know to keep their mouth shut, we feel that we have to justify our reasons for defending ourselves because we were “lawfully” defending ourselves, and did nothing wrong. This “want” to justify our actions is a slippery slope that “could” mean the difference between freedom or incarceration!!!!

Remember that during a physical confrontation, Survival Stress Reaction (SSR) may likely take effect. One of the effects of SSR is something known as Critical Stress Amnesia (CSA). After a critical incident, it is not uncommon for a person to only recall approx 30% of what happened in the first 24 hours; 50% in the following 48 hours; and 75-95 % in 72-100 hours. As one can appreciate, this recall challenge could cause problems in a court of law down the road.

It is because of these above noted issues that I recommend that if being investigated as a possible suspect, you only provide a statement through a lawyer as there are a couple of advantages in doing so:

• In Canada you can not be cross examined on a statement that has been prepared by your lawyer

• Most lawyers, not all, are familiar with CSA and as a result will wait the appropriate amount of time before conducting a thorough interview which will be provided to the police later on.


If I were asked by the police to provide a statement (either verbal or written) I would give the following reply:

“ Officer, due to the fact that I was faced with a physical attack that I could not reasonably walk and talk my way out of, I responded with that amount of force needed to reasonably defend myself given the totality of the circumstances that will come to light in your investigation. I know that you would like me to provide a statement as to my perception of threat and the actions that I took to defend myself, and I will be more than happy to do so. However, given the fact that I am being investigated as a possible suspect, I want to ensure that I protect myself from any legal consequences (both criminal and civil) that may flow from my self defence actions, and as such, I will provide a voluntary statement to you through my lawyer as soon as possible.”

I believe that the above noted preamble is respectful and also sends a message that you will co-operate with police. I can only speak for LEO’s in my jurisdiction, and as such, I believe most would be very respectful and understanding of your legal concerns.

Remember, you may live by the sword, but you are judged by the pen. Although Shakespeare stated, “kill all the lawyers first”, a lawyer may be your best friend if being investigated by police for a self-defence action.


Darren





http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/Legal%20rights.doc

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#348391 - 07/02/07 06:47 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: ExCon]
ExCon Offline
There is no plan C

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 203
From Justice Talking

Quote:

Overview

Today’s police interrogation methods were developed to replace more brutal tactics of extracting confessions. While many hail the progress, others point to the lying, manipulation and verbal harassment that are all an accepted part of the interrogation process. The outcome, critics say, is a growing number of false confessions, especially among juveniles. Should interrogations or confessions be video taped? Should certain coercive practices be stopped or would we simply be straight-jacketing law enforcement and jeopardizing public safety?


Guests

John Timoney
currently Chief of Police of the Miami Police Department, has had a long and distinguished career in law enforcement. Beginning in 1969, as a rookie officer in New York City, Timoney rose through the ranks gaining a wealth of experience in the department’s Organized Crime Control Bureau, Chief of Department’s Office, Investigation and Review Section, the Office of Management Analysis and Planning and, ultimately, was appointed First Deputy Commissioner. He served four years as Police Commissioner for the city of Philadelphia, commanding a diverse force of 7000 officers. Prior to his appointment in Miami, he served as the CEO for Beau Dietl & Associates.


Peter Neufeld co-founded and directs the Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law. He is the co-author of Actual Innocence: Five Days to Execution, and Other Dispatches From the Wrongly Convicted. In 1988, Peter became involved in studying and litigating issues concerning the use of forensic DNA testing. His work not only shaped the course of U.S. case law but helped lead to an influential study by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic DNA testing, as well as legislation setting standards for the use of DNA testing. Neufeld serves as a member of the New York State's Commission on Forensic Science.





Listen to the full program here.

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#348392 - 07/03/07 03:20 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: ExCon]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
The problem seems to be that whilst the police officers who indulge in 'shall we say less than reputable practices', harm the whole police force in the longer term, they seem not to realise nor care about the fact.

As an example, many years ago I was traveling in a car with a chum of mine. The journey we had undertaken was being made at the behest of his father who's car we were in. We were both 19 at the time and the car in question was his fathers E type Jaguar.

My chum was stopped for overtaking a lorry (truck) on double white lines on a dead straight bit of road. The peculiar thing was. There was no lorry (there had been one but it had turned off in a different direction) and there were no white lines. It made no difference whatever to the police officer when we pointed these facts out and he took huge exception when I took out my cameras and started taking pictures. My chum was served with a 'notice of intended prosecution'. The following day, having got the pictures developed and printed (way before digital) we took the pictures along to the officers listed station and made an official protest. This made no difference whatever and my chum was prosecuted, subsequently convicted and paid a fine and had his license endorsed.

Strangely enough, the self same thing happened to myself on a different road and different vehicle (Heally 3000) some 18 months after the event above, but within the same county. I consider that at the time the local police force had some sort of objection to young blokes driving powerful cars.

From that day to this we both adopt the same attitude to the police. Don't have anything to do with them. If you see one in trouble tough, they are on their own. They put on the uniform and take the salary and pension, then they sort out their own problems. If I was to see one being assaulted then I walk the other way, that's getting one back for what happened to us. Nobody helps you or me do our job, so why should the police expect help in doing theirs?

Both the incidents were over 45 years ago but I can see those coppers face's as if it was yesterday. They managed to create animosity towards the police from two young blokes who hitherto would have gone out of their way to help out, and that created attitude has lasted a lifetime.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#348393 - 07/03/07 03:26 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: Midnightcrawler]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Quote:

The problem seems to be that whilst the police officers who indulge in 'shall we say less than reputable practices', harm the whole police force in the longer term, they seem not to realise nor care about the fact.

As an example, many years ago I was traveling in a car with a chum of mine. The journey we had undertaken was being made at the behest of his father who's car we were in. We were both 19 at the time and the car in question was his fathers E type Jaguar.

My chum was stopped for overtaking a lorry (truck) on double white lines on a dead straight bit of road. The peculiar thing was. There was no lorry (there had been one but it had turned off in a different direction) and there were no white lines. It made no difference whatever to the police officer when we pointed these facts out and he took huge exception when I took out my cameras and started taking pictures. My chum was served with a 'notice of intended prosecution'. The following day, having got the pictures developed and printed (way before digital) we took the pictures along to the officers listed station and made an official protest. This made no difference whatever and my chum was prosecuted, subsequently convicted and paid a fine and had his license endorsed.

Strangely enough, the self same thing happened to myself on a different road and different vehicle (Heally 3000) some 18 months after the event above, but within the same county. I consider that at the time the local police force had some sort of objection to young blokes driving powerful cars.

From that day to this we both adopt the same attitude to the police. Don't have anything to do with them. If you see one in trouble tough, they are on their own. They put on the uniform and take the salary and pension, then they sort out their own problems. If I was to see one being assaulted then I walk the other way, that's getting one back for what happened to us. Nobody helps you or me do our job, so why should the police expect help in doing theirs?

Both the incidents were over 45 years ago but I can see those coppers face's as if it was yesterday. They managed to create animosity towards the police from two young blokes who hitherto would have gone out of their way to help out, and that created attitude has lasted a lifetime.

MC.




Wow, do you write off every member of any group when you come across the proverbial bad apple that just so happens to be a member?

Ever meet a bad/mean/bully MA-ist? Better not have anything to do with the rest of us then.

Ever meet an unethical doctor? Better learn medicine and avoid them.

Ever meet a female who was deceptive and manipulative?

How about a male?

How far can we take this stupidity? Pretty far it seems.

Get the point?
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#348394 - 07/03/07 06:17 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: jpoor]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:


Wow, do you write off every member of any group when you come across the proverbial bad apple that just so happens to be a member?

Ever meet a bad/mean/bully MA-ist? Better not have anything to do with the rest of us then.

Ever meet an unethical doctor? Better learn medicine and avoid them.

Ever meet a female who was deceptive and manipulative?

How about a male?

How far can we take this stupidity? Pretty far it seems.

Get the point?




jpoor,

Do I write off a whole group? If necessary.


"Ever meet a bad/mean/bully Ma'ist?" Yes and having done so, ceased any contact with them. If that meant changing training organisations, then fine, so be it.

"Ever meet an unethical doctor?" Not yet. If I do I'll change doctors.

"Ever meet a female who was deceptive and manipulative?" Isn't that her job description? Avoid like the plague, treat her in the same way or stand up to her. Ask my missus.

"How about a male?" Terminate any relationship with the aforesaid male. Change jobs, Golf Club, Gym, Lodge or whatever other type of organisation occasions the contact.

"How far can we take this stupidity? Pretty far it seems". Why is it stupid? With all of the above examples there are alternatives, therefore you (or I) can exercise our judgement and opt for any of those available alternatives. Every country has its police force, and the funny thing is that there is only one in each country and it is self regulating. Don't you find that very odd? Therefore, you do not have any alternative law enforcement body to turn to. In other words 'it's a monopoly'. Just because it exists as a functioning entity does not mean that I 'or anyone else' have to enthuse over it or render it assistance. I think that given the experience my chum and I had in or late teens (a point in life where many opinions are formed) the police officers who were then serving could have applied the maxim of 'do as you would be done by'. Recently in the UK there has been a government report which in its findings found the UK police to be and I quote "Institutionally racist". I would venture say that additionally they are also 'institutionally against young blokes driving powerful motor cars as well', as the situation my chum and I found ourselves in continues to this day.

"Get the point"? Sure I get the point. The question is do you? Part and parcel of the deterioration of society as we know it is down to the police treating youngsters with suspicion and as second class citizens. It therefore cannot be coincidental that a significant proportion of young people treat the police force with less than respect and in some instances with contempt, as they have formed their opinions based upon their experience, in the same way that my chum and I have. It may also be helpful if those said police officers realised that the young people they seem to have this downer on are in fact tax payers, and if it wasn't for them, the police wouldn't be paid. Before you go and say 'ah yes but the police pay taxes too' you're right they are but, there are more tax payers employed in private enterprise than in the public sector. So it might behove the police to remember their job is to protect, not persecute, and the man who pays the money calls the tune.

MC.


Edited by Midnightcrawler (07/03/07 06:34 PM)
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#348395 - 07/03/07 06:25 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: Midnightcrawler]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
So, a few bad cops mean they are all bad, but a few bad members of any other group only means that the specific few are bad?

And, if you look at the differences and even "rivalries" between city, county, state and federal LE organizations, you'll not be able to call it a "monopoly" either.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#348396 - 07/03/07 06:51 PM Re: Self defense against the cops [Re: jpoor]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

So, a few bad cops mean they are all bad, but a few bad members of any other group only means that the specific few are bad?

And, if you look at the differences and even "rivalries" between city, county, state and federal LE organizations, you'll not be able to call it a "monopoly" either.




1/ So, a few bad cops mean they are all bad, but a few bad members of any other group only means that the specific few are bad?

No it means that with other organisations you can take your 'custom' elsewhere.

2/ And, if you look at the differences and even "rivalries" between city, county, state and federal LE organizations, you'll not be able to call it a "monopoly" either.

OK let's call it an oligopolistic situation then from the US perspective. In the UK there are no such rivalries. There will be however, if the European Union lords and masters have their way. Or perhaps I should say 'if the UK politicians are stupid enough to let them.

There is already too much interference in peoples lives, the last thing we need is more.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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