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#347555 - 06/24/07 07:56 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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If you followed the conversation, I was meaning in terms of general trend. keeping to my context, when is the last time you saw atemi allowed in olympic Judo?
try adding your own on topic theory instead of simply trying to punch holes in other's posts via out-of-context commentary.
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#347556 - 06/24/07 08:36 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Personally, I think that grappling has it's place, but as far as why it would fall by the wayside... lets look at it this way... One on One - Grappling or Striking are both options, barring lava, broken glass, syringe pit, etc  Two Attackers - Grappling may be okay, but only in stand up if at all possible. You better have good footwork, & be able to manipulate a standing enemy with joint locks, throws & projections. Striking arts are a better option simply because you are more mobile since you are not physically connected to the enemy if only for a moment when you are striking them. 3+ attackers - same as above, but grappling or groundfighting is an even more ludicrous action. Invites a stomping. Attacker with a blade - No grappling unless possessing unarguable mastery and extreme sensitivity. If he knows how to use it, you will not see the blade until it is deployed to slash/thrust. Being possessed of a trained reaction to take an opponent to the ground by shooting under the hands is not advised. Multiple attackers with blade/blunt weapons - any ground fighting at this point is virtual suicide. When dealing with multiples, mobility is the best defense, barring the option of egress from the conflict. That being said, what with the use of weapons or the simple tactic of "bringing friends", grappling is not so useful. With most of the First World Countries & their colonies being involved in battlefield combat over the last couple centuries, grappling arts and groundfighting have taken a backseat to standup striking arts what with their affording the fighter much greater mobility. Looking at Steve Tarani's "Contact Weapons Street Survival Formula" for surviving weapon encounters, there are the following steps: 1. Break Contact Connection 2. Clear to Safety Range 3. Establish Superior Position 4. Look & Assess The Contact Connection is all determined by range. When at Contact or Extreme Close Quarters (ECQ) Range as named by Tarani, footwork is usually not enough to reach a safe range, so you must use the upper body options along with footwork. Loren Christensen has repeatedly stated the benefits of striking arts over grappling or ground fighting. As a career LEO with many more real life fights than any of us under his belt, I'd say he has an expert opinion worth listening to. Here is an article about Knife Attacks & the possibilities of facing a knife WHEN NOT IN THE RING... Knife Attacks & Reality Article Donn Draeger noted in his book "The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia" that some of the Malay/Indonesian peoples do practice grappling arts, or integrated some Judo or Jujutsu into their arts, they didn't practice groundfighting even if grappling for sport, and the more combative tribes would only practice grappling for sport or exercise but would never use it in actual combat. These peoples are, along with Filipinos, the most prolific wearers & users of blades in the world. Knives and multiple attackers are part & parcel to their systems, & they choose to not grapple for a reason. Read the book! Here are two articles about ground fighting and blades from Joe Maffei, a guy that knows something about it, and how it greatly differs from any unarmed ground fighting. According to him, the average NHB fighter is totally unprepared, regardless of what they may think... Groundfighting & Knives #1 Groundfighting & Knives #2
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#347557 - 06/24/07 09:37 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
If you followed the conversation, I was meaning in terms of general trend. keeping to my context, when is the last time you saw atemi allowed in olympic Judo?
try adding your own on topic theory instead of simply trying to punch holes in other's posts via out-of-context commentary.
"Out-of-context"? Heh. Speaking of sportified Olympic Judo, maybe that's why Judo fell by the wayside.
Take the Martial out of an Art, & you lose the whole reason it was created. I think I'm right in context. Sorry if that point was lost while you were wrapped up in your "general trend" point
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#347558 - 06/24/07 09:58 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: oldman]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
Hey Guys,
Quote:
Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
Why DOES ground fighting fall to the way side?
One reason is that it is very hard. The more difficult an endeavor is the fewer people wil stay with it. Particularly if the payoff for the behavior is not immediate. Long term training for something that might happen in the future is like the dicipline of saving money. Most people don't because there is no immediate pay off. People miss the value of incremental gains and compounding your investment wheither its money or time on the mat. The more intangible the payoff the higher the dropoff rate.
So the number one reason ITS HARD!
Reason #2. They don't need it.
So, groundfighting is hard?
"One year for newaza, TEN YEARS for nagewaza". Ever heard that one?
Statistically speaking, you will never run into some master groundfighter in a real life SD situation. How long would it take someone to learn the basics, which would be more than enought to deal with 99.44% of aggressors out there in situations that may go to the ground?
Not long.
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#347559 - 06/24/07 10:00 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Kimo2007]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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Kimo2007 wroteQuote:
But I always seperate a person who's job it is the keep order (LEO, bouncer, etc) from the average person walking down the street.
So list a few reasons for such so that THOSE can be debated.
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Sure you grapple lovers you can think of scenarios that going to the ground is a good idea, I have said repeatedly, there are no absolutes. It's not black and white, there are variables.
I never disagreed with you regarding that.
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But chosing grappling over striking (assuming you can do either) is the exception, not the rule.
I say running away is your primary objective and NOT fighting whatsoever. That's not choosing grappling OR choosing striking. From that point, your choice depends on circumstances.
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The recent rise of grapplings image thanks to the Gracies has many people thinking that is wrong, that is troubling to me.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. So long as people understand it's not cool to fight, they'll be safe. If they ARE able to keep their egos in check, are able to develop a nose for trouble and can live an intelligent life, most of us will be able to stay safe and never have to MAKE that choice of whether to strike or grapple. That make sense?
Barring any of that, if we have done all of those things, lived intelligently and cleanly, stayed out of trouble, etc., and we are STILL attacked, then we've been hit by a predator. In THAT situation, he will probably be armed and possibly with several accomplices. Under those circumstances, NO "martial art" is going to even the odds. So it doesn't matter WHAT you're skilled at. It won't matter if you're the greatest grappler or striker on the planet. It won't even matter if you are Jet Li.
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Also remember that in the early UFC the grapplers won because the strikers didn't respect it and had no answer for it. Taking candy from a baby someone likes to say, well that is no longer the case, the secret is out and anyone fighting knows they need a defense to it, so the fights are more balanced skill wise.
And the reason for this is because every pro fighter has learned to grapple, correct? They've done so because they HAD to, right? If so, you've just made another point of mine. Without having done that, these folks would still be beaten as easily as they ever were. So that speaks for them -- what about the REST of the populace?
However again, this point only speaks of the necessity to avoid fighting altogether. What we've learned is that people aren't pushovers. And this is true of most folks when they have something to fight for, trained or not. So again, avoid fighting but remember that if you DO choose to stand and "trade blows" with someone, you're not out of the woods. I mean, everyone likes to talk about the risks of grappling, but people quickly forget that ANYONE can get lucky and land a knock-out shot. Thats called the punchers chance. If they're bigger, than you are, it might only take ONE such blow to leave you brain dead.
Meanwhile, I have yet to see an untrained person land the "lucky gogoplata", lol
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No offense to anyone but I can't think of any competive actvity where if you compete against someone who doesn't know how to do it, you would lose. Be is basketball or BJJ.
Thats' true for the most part. People get lucky all the time though. All you need to do is get lucky once when it comes to striking. The game ends automatically when you're KTFO'd.
-John
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#347561 - 06/24/07 11:55 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: MattJ]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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MattJ wroteQuote:
I don't think too many people are arguing that grappling is not a great strategy against knives or multiple opponents. However, any other unarmed defense is not going to be much better....... 
That's been MY point since I've been on this board.
That said, it can be argued that clinch grappling can be the best strategy against knives aside from....running away.
And I personally (for the record) don't give a flying rats ass about anything that Loren Christensen or Joe Maffei says.
Let these "experts" say what they want. I can find many experts from any field to contradict other experts from the same field. It means NOTHING.
Discover your OWN truths folks.
-John
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#347562 - 06/24/07 03:39 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: cxt]
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Newbie
Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 21
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Quote:
---is it possible that perhaps the "need" for groundfighting might be overstated due to seeing it all over the TV??
I see the Ultimate fighter and I think "whoa, I NEED to work on my ground game."
But now that were talking about it---I can only think of a single time when anyone even tried to take the fight to the ground.
Blasphemer!! 90% of all fights go to the ground and groundfighting is the end-all be-all of everything !!!
Seriously, though, I have to agree with you. I've only seen one fight (IRL) go to the ground and that was because both people were so unskilled they simply fell over each other. Now for all you who enjoy the ground-game, don't get offended. I'm not saying it's weak or pointless. I'm just saying it all depends on what you're training for. If you're training for self-defence, then the ground game just isn't as important...grappling skills in general, however, are very useful. I don't know, haven't met nor even heard of anyone being attacked and clobbered by a trained ground-fighter. Doesn't mean it won't ever happen to anyone, just that it's not a common thing to have to worry about. For those of you who advocate using ground-fighting for self-defence...cool. We all have our preferences and if it works, it works. But, it's not the only way. Now if you want to talk about competitive fighting, then there's no denying what a skilled grappler can do on the ground.
And since I'm posting, I suppose I could address the original topic. Why did ground-fighting fall to the way-side?....I'm guessing 2 main reasons. First, for quite some time less people have been training for real fighting/self-defence skills, and more for fun and health. Second, those who have been training for self-defence were focused on that...since you didn't have a lot of highly skilled ground-fighters roaming the streets and kicking @ss, people interested in self-defence didn't worry about it too much. Only makes sense.
Josh
p.s. oldman, really like your post....so very reasonable!
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#347563 - 06/24/07 03:49 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: JKogas]
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Newbie
Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 21
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Quote:
Quote:
...and we're back to using the UFC as the end-all be-all measuring stick. 
Can you think of a BETTER one?
I think it all depends on what you're trying to measure. If you're trying to measure over-all fighting skills (within a certain rule set), then it's definitely one of the best measuring stick (but not necessarily the best). If we're talking real life self-defence skills, then I'd have to say a better measuring stick is real life. If I can keep myself and my loved ones safe, then I've got the skills I need. Doesn't matter that a UFC level fighter could tear me apart. 
Best,
Josh
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#347564 - 06/24/07 03:58 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: HaterHater]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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HaterHater wroteQuote:
I've only seen one fight (IRL) go to the ground and that was because both people were so unskilled they simply fell over each other.
That counts. I've seen a few more than that. But what does that prove? Only that it happens. Isn't that reason enough to train the ground game?
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Now for all you who enjoy the ground-game, don't get offended. I'm not saying it's weak or pointless. I'm just saying it all depends on what you're training for. If you're training for self-defence, then the ground game just isn't as important
I think your premise is flawed. If the ground game isn't important, then training for self-defense isn't important either. Using the same logic.
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...grappling skills in general, however, are very useful.
Ok, so now you're slicing and dicing. Explain the differences between "grappling skills in general" and ground fighting. To me they are one and the same.
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I don't know, haven't met nor even heard of anyone being attacked and clobbered by a trained ground-fighter. Doesn't mean it won't ever happen to anyone, just that it's not a common thing to have to worry about.
Thats what makes people such an easy mark. It's hard to beat what you don't know and haven't seen. I bet all of the TMA guys in the first couple of UFCs felt exactly the same way.
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For those of you who advocate using ground-fighting for self-defence...cool. We all have our preferences and if it works, it works. But, it's not the only way.
I think its more a question of having a complete game instead of going out at about 50% of capacity. Who in their right mind advocates being "half-assed"?
Quote:
.....Why did ground-fighting fall to the way-side?....I'm guessing 2 main reasons. First, for quite some time less people have been training for real fighting/self-defence skills, and more for fun and health.
So how does THAT argument explain anything? What are you trying to say, that grapplers don't train for self-defense? Are you also saying that training for fun and health have no bearing on self-defense? Explain your premise.
Quote:
Second, those who have been training for self-defence were focused on that...since you didn't have a lot of highly skilled ground-fighters roaming the streets and kicking @ss, people interested in self-defence didn't worry about it too much. Only makes sense.
That people were IGNORANT to ground fighting doesn't mean that not training for it makes any sense.
You train for self-defense because, "things happen". Using your line of reasoning, it's possible for things to happen - but it won't happen on the ground. Isn't that putting your head in the sand? You get beaten by what you don't know.
So you're training to prepare for violence, which probably "won't happen". So why not extend that logic to the ground? Because that could just as easily happen. Unless of course you believe that every situation you encounter will be under your control. I don't know of any reasonably intelligent person who believes that.
Thus, we train for the ground for the same reasons we train self-defense through ANY range - because events happen outside of our control. I suppose some folks are just happy drawing lines and being biased because it means less work for them. That's about the only thing I can think of. Bias and fear. We don't enjoy doing those things that we are often intimidated by.
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I think it all depends on what you're trying to measure.
Performance. The ability to perform against one's peers. That is truly all we can reasonably measure ourselves against.
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If you're trying to measure over-all fighting skills (within a certain rule set), then it's definitely one of the best measuring stick (but not necessarily the best).
So the objective is to find that "better" measuring stick than an environment where live training against other reasonably skilled and conditioned athletes (peers) can test themselves.
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If we're talking real life self-defense skills, then I'd have to say a better measuring stick is real life.
Define "real life" please. How is MMA any less real? Explain your premise.
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If I can keep myself and my loved ones safe, then I've got the skills I need. Doesn't matter that a UFC level fighter could tear me apart.
You can keep them safe (and likely even MORE safe) WITHOUT fighting. Thats beside the point.
-John
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