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#347585 - 06/25/07 09:06 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ames]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Folks -
This has been a pretty informative thread. Let's try to stay on topic and not resort to E-nsults. The knife-vs-grappling is interesting stuff, but should be a thread of it's own. Perhaps someone would like to start one?
Let's try to keep this one on track, please.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#347586 - 06/25/07 10:22 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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Jim I have to ask--given you assertion that find Koryu defenses lacking in dealing with knife attacks from "other" styles of knife work. How do you know what kind of training your attacker has?????  Your correct in that most if not all systems were developed to deal with SPECIFIC situtations---Koryu work was developed with the particular threats they were most likely to deal with---as was just about everybody else. It still begs the question, if the guy that is attacking you does not hail from the style your used to/the style your training to defeat, then it comes down to how you good you are with what you have--how fast you "shift gears" so to speak--bascially it comes down to YOU, not your style or your training per-se but YOU In context and on-topic  Its interesting to note that cultures that frequently employ bladed weapons, didn't focus much on ground fighting. Oh, they taught it certainly, but they tended to fight shy of focusing on it when blades were commonly carried by everyone. Its only after the time that blades were no longer in general use did people switch to a ground game focus.
Edited by cxt (06/25/07 10:27 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
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#347587 - 06/25/07 12:58 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: cxt]
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Member
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
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Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
Just my observation... could be wrong. I think the introduction of effective weight training methods from the West (modern weight training) is a key element of bringing ground fighting and grappling back to the spot-light.
For example, let say for people of practice Chinese King Ku in China in history. The was no weight training like in modern days, plus with the food/diet Chinese ate in old days... majority of old-generations-Chinese (Han) were light-weighted, skinny and short, compare to the Westeners in modern time. Now try to imagine the effectives ground-fighting or grappling with such body type (skinny, lack of weight training). Even the monks in Shoalin Temple were vegetarian...
IMHO, traditional (asian) martial art training method is not gear toward westling, grappling, ground-fighting. With modern weight training, it raises the bar of grappling, especially ground-fighting.
Edited by TroTro (06/25/07 01:01 PM)
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#347588 - 06/25/07 01:21 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: TroTro]
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Member
Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
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Quote:
IMHO, traditional (asian) martial art training method is not gear toward westling, grappling, ground-fighting. With modern weight training, it raises the bar of grappling, especially ground-fighting.
Hi TroTro.
Interesting hypothesis, but I have to disagree. Although strength and conditioning are bonuses in grappling, proper technique, leverage and good timing are the keys to success. I have been trounced on the mat by folks who are much smaller than me (i.e., giving up 30lbs or more) before, due to their wealth of experience and excellent technique. And conversely, I have dominated folks at least 50lbs heavier than myself due to my experience/their inexperience.
And (although I am sure someone will flame me for this  ), need I remind you that in the first few UFCs, Royce Gracie, not even 180lbs soaking wet, trounced many bigger, stronger opponents with little trouble. And then there was that fight in which he submitted Akebono the sumo wrestler. So, although size and strength are advantages in grappling (as they are in all ranges of fighting), skill and technique is really what counts.
Peace,
Mike
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#347589 - 06/25/07 01:43 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Xibalba]
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Member
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
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I agree technique is important. However, I am wondering how much weight/strength is enough? Or minimum?
As Xiabalba mentioned, Royce Gracie was about 180 lbs in 1st few UFC. Maybe it is not huge in U.S. But in the place where I was borned and raised (Hong Kong, 15~ years ago), average male adult weight in that region was like 120~130 lbs?
I understand that weight is NOT the absolute factor, but it may influence which martial style a person is preferred. Less people practice the art, less development for the art.
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#347590 - 06/25/07 02:04 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: TroTro]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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Tro
I respectfully disagree. Respectfully.
In the first place weight/strength/resistance training was used by many if not all chinese martial arts--to a degree at least.
And the okinawans employed it across the board by pretty much eveybody--and they had a specific grappling tradition of some sort already.
2nd, China is a HUGE place, so you had many different body types.
3td and perhaps most important, body weight/size/mass arguments are only relevent when comparing 2 DIFFERNT groups.
If everyone is "skinny" then clearly being the STRONGEST "skinny" person is to your advantage.
Weight training counts BIG is every one is "light weight, skinny and short."
Its apples to apples at that point.
In fact if everyone is assumed to be "light weight skinny and short" then there are even MORE reasons to weight train--offers larger advantages to the ones that do it.
Also, now that I'm thinking about it--it would also ENCOURGE ground fighting as one of the larger obstacles to grappling is people of larger mass having a distinct advanage.
If I only have to worry about "skinny, short and light weight" people then I should focus on MORE ground fighting, not less.
The result should have been MORE ground fighting--not less.
(Gracies and other highly skilled people aside, I used to wrestle as a very light middle weight and I personally speak to that fact that heavy weights--even mediocre ones had tremendous advantage over their lighter team-mates in practice--you had to be MUCH better then they were to beat the mass/strength.)
Unless of course there are other factors to consider.
As mentioned almost all eastern martial arts traditions had grappling/ground fighting content--they just had different foci.
I still find it very interesting that for the most part it wasn't until people stopped carrying knives and various bladed weapons as a matter of course that ground fighting became more popular.
Although again, now that I'm thinking of it, there is a least one style of chinese martial arts--so called "Dog Boxing" that puts plenty of focus on ground fighting.
Don't know much about it though--only what I can google, so the specifics I really don't know.
Edited by cxt (06/25/07 02:08 PM)
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#347591 - 06/25/07 02:37 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
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Quote:
Personally, I think that grappling has it's place, but as far as why it would fall by the wayside... lets look at it this way...
One on One - Grappling or Striking are both options, barring lava, broken glass, syringe pit, etc
Two Attackers - Grappling may be okay, but only in stand up if at all possible. You better have good footwork, & be able to manipulate a standing enemy with joint locks, throws & projections. Striking arts are a better option simply because you are more mobile since you are not physically connected to the enemy if only for a moment when you are striking them.
I think your basing your assumptions on to narrow a field
and creating an argument based on reading other peoples written works.Perhaps striking might be a better option if the fight remains standing but it still doesnt mean to say
no ground work training is needed.
In a fight a person could end up in any position.
Therefore the need is there to strike grapple and throw from any position a person finds themselves. Yes in this scenario idealy strike but remember there are more than the one combatent to dictate how the fight is fought.
What will a person do in they are on there knees? Where is their footwork?
Strike grab tear throw grapple depending on where they find themselves.
In a defence situation a person does what a person can.
They can only do what they can if they have trained it.
Your stating ideal scenarios.
Quote:
3+ attackers - same as above, but grappling or groundfighting is an even more ludicrous action. Invites a stomping.
Again your talking as if only one combatent will dictate how the fight goes. Now there are 4 people fighting. So by your assumption the person being attacked is given a choice by his attackers? And he will stand ? He will ask his attackers if its ok with them?
Of course not. If the attacked cant run he will have to do what he can.
Idealy staying upright might be the right choice but have you told the attackers the rules before the fight?
I have a specific technique that is in a trad karate kata.
This technique is also used by a lot of other arts including LEO's seemimgly. Its a wrist grab arm bar the opposite elbow with the opposite hand and throw opponent face down.It takes a second to perform. I use it when the opportunity lets me. I am learning more grappling throws etc because I know through study experience and watching seminars from people like Geoff Thompson who have had years of experience in this kind of work (including knife attacks his friend was killed in one) that I need to study it.
Your dreaming stating the ideal situation.
My first rule of self defence.Train to run fast and far
Second rule of self defence. Learn to fight from every position and to learn and practice as much as I can
Fights dont go according to plan. The ability to use everything striking grappling throws groundwork is essential to survive such an encounter
Quote:
Attacker with a blade - No grappling unless possessing unarguable mastery and extreme sensitivity. If he knows how to use it, you will not see the blade until it is deployed to slash/thrust. Being possessed of a trained reaction to take an opponent to the ground by shooting under the hands is not advised.
Multiple attackers with blade/blunt weapons - any ground fighting at this point is virtual suicide. When dealing with multiples, mobility is the best defense, barring the option of egress from the conflict.
That being said, what with the use of weapons or the simple tactic of "bringing friends", grappling is not so useful. With most of the First World Countries & their colonies being involved in battlefield combat over the last couple centuries, grappling arts and groundfighting have taken a backseat to standup striking arts what with their affording the fighter much greater mobility.
Again your presuming again the person attacked can define the rules.Your stating ideal scenarios as thought the attacked has a choice.
The judo part. I study judo. The only strikes are in a kata
as is the kata for old jujitsu techniques. Most judo guys study other arts for striking. A technique in kata has to be brought to life by an able practioner.
Judo is not practiced for striking just as throws and grappling are not practiced in boxing.
Jude
I think your basing your assumptions on someones written works not direct or someones direct experience.
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#347593 - 06/25/07 04:31 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Xibalba]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
And (although I am sure someone will flame me for this ), need I remind you that in the first few UFCs, Royce Gracie, not even 180lbs soaking wet, trounced many bigger, stronger opponents with little trouble. And then there was that fight in which he submitted Akebono the sumo wrestler. So, although size and strength are advantages in grappling (as they are in all ranges of fighting), skill and technique is really what counts.
Peace,
Mike
Hey, you called it. Techique can be the equalizer when there is disproportionate size & strength in a fight 
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#347594 - 06/25/07 04:45 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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Jim Judy Granted, but just as "Spud" Webb outperformed many of his competitiors--how many "Spud" Webb's are there in the NBA??? Boxing/Wrestling have weight classes for a reason. As does the UFC itself. For equally valid reasons.
Edited by cxt (06/25/07 04:46 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.
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