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22740 Members
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#347565 - 06/24/07 07:55 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: HaterHater]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Quote by HaterHater - Quote:
I don't know, haven't met nor even heard of anyone being attacked and clobbered by a trained ground-fighter.
Oh my. Oh dear. Josh, with all due respect, statements like this reflect an ignorance about "real life" fighting that borders on astonishing. You do realize that there are vast numbers of men that have trained wrestling in school (some from a young age), right? And American football players certainly wouldn't try to tackle you to the ground, either, huh?
And as noted before, a common tactic of many attackers would be to put YOU on the ground.
I am certainly not trying to say that groundfighting is the best option all the time - it isn't. But if you think it's a bad idea, or unnecessary (which your quote seems to indicate), then you are mistaken, my friend.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#347566 - 06/24/07 08:12 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: MattJ]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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Quote:
You do realize that there are vast numbers of men that have trained wrestling in school (some from a young age), right? And American football players certainly wouldn't try to tackle you to the ground, either, huh?
Exactly. Many guys who are simply much bigger will attempt to wrestle you to the ground to use their size against you.
Quote:
And as noted before, a common tactic of many attackers would be to put YOU on the ground.
My very first fight was lost because I was anticipating a stand-up slug it out type of fight. My opponent just bent over and tackled me right to the ground. I had ZERO ground fighting skill at the time. I had NO defenses to grappling and ground fighting because -- I hadn't been training for that scenario. And that's the point. We get beat by what we're not skilled at.
But go ahead folks. Don't train it. I'd personally rather you NOT so that if we ever hook up and spar MMA, I want an easy victory, lol.
Quote:
I am certainly not trying to say that ground fighting is the best option all the time - it isn't.
And I agree completely with this. No single approach is going to be the best for every situation. Versatility is key. That's all I've been saying.
-John
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#347567 - 06/24/07 08:12 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: JKogas]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
MattJ wrote
Quote:
I don't think too many people are arguing that grappling is not a great strategy against knives or multiple opponents. However, any other unarmed defense is not going to be much better....... 
That's been MY point since I've been on this board.
That said, it can be argued that clinch grappling can be the best strategy against knives aside from....running away.
And I personally (for the record) don't give a flying rats ass about anything that Loren Christensen or Joe Maffei says.
Let these "experts" say what they want. I can find many experts from any field to contradict other experts from the same field. It means NOTHING.
Discover your OWN truths folks.
-John
Begging your pardon, but there are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE DEFENSES against blades or weapons than grappling.
"Discover your OWN truths folk"? That's a joke. Are you out there discovering your own truth? No, you bought some BJJ BS hook, line, & sinker. Go find someone in your little grappling world that is willing to argue with Christensen about anything that really happens in the street. As for groundfighting being such an inevitability, Christensen stated that his whole time in LE he NEVER WENT THE THE GROUND UNLESS HE WANTED TO. I trust that a hell of alot more than some 90+ percentile that you BJJers throw around like it's gospel truth.
You aren't interested in well-credentialed experts with more real life experience than you could ever dream of having, such as Christensen, and then you expect anyone to give a flip what you have to say on some BB? Heh. 
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#347568 - 06/24/07 08:33 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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Jim Judy wroteQuote:
Begging your pardon, but there are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE DEFENSES against blades or weapons than grappling.
I wrote that, “it can be argued that clinch grappling can be the best strategy against knives aside from....running away.”
So far, you have mentioned that there are FAR more effective defenses against blades or weapons than grappling. Yet, you have failed to either explain WHY there are far more effective defenses or, provide any examples of them (aside from providing your links perhaps).
So until you do, pi$$ off 
But yes, I agree. Firearms and running away would be first and second on my list respectively. Third on my list would be control of the weapon arm. I mean, you DO want to stop being cut don’t you? Right?
Quote:
"Discover your OWN truths folk"? That's a joke. Are you out there discovering your own truth? No, you bought some BJJ BS hook, line, & sinker.
Let me ask you a couple of questions please:
1) Do you know me?
2) Do you know YOU?
3) If either of the above answers are “NO’, then saying that I’m not discovering my own truths or that I bought some BJJ “BS” hook, line, & sinker would be an ASSumption on YOUR part wouldn’t it?
If the answer to that is YES, then would that not be an acknowledgment that you are a dumbass?
4) Might it be possible that BJJ is a "part" of the truths that I have discovered?
Quote:
Go find someone in your little grappling world that is willing to argue with Christensen about anything that really happens in the street.
I will argue that with anyone. You and Christensen could TAG team together and I would argue that. That is only one man and his opinion. There are a LOT of those out there. So if you want to debate facts, that’s fine. If you want to have a shouting match, your own ability to argue your points will be compromised and you’ll just end up looking like the mental midget that you probably are.
Quote:
As for groundfighting being such an inevitability, Christensen stated that his whole time in LE he NEVER WENT THE THE GROUND UNLESS HE WANTED TO.
I think I mentioned before that I don’t give a flying rats ass about Loren Christensen. Maybe you didn’t see that part. I tend to want to develop my own opinions based on my experiences and others that I know personally. I mean, as opposed to buying a few books and reading some magazines, dig?
Quote:
I trust that a hell of alot more than some 90+ percentile that you BJJers throw around like it's gospel truth.
See again, there is that assumption that because I practice BJJ that I am just a BJJer. Obviously you do not practice the art yourself? Would that be correct? If not, what would be your solution to the ground fighting scenario? I am REALLY curious to see what your answer is.
Quote:
You aren't interested in well-credentialed experts with more real life experience than you could ever dream of having, such as Christensen, and then you expect anyone to give a flip what you have to say on some BB?
Credentials don’t mean $hit.
More questions for you to ponder: How do you know that I have no real life experience?
And, who said I ever expected anyone to give a flip about whatever I have to say?
Wouldn’t the logic of any arguments of anyone on this forum be enough to stand on their own? If not, why not? Explain your answers? If you’re capable.
-John
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#347569 - 06/24/07 08:35 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: California
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How did this thread come to be about the effectiveness of ground fighting? Any type of fighting is good to know; you can't go wrong with more training and experience as far as I'm concerned. You just never know when you might need it.
_________________________
Self Defense(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)
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#347570 - 06/24/07 08:49 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Leo_E_49]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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I just sent Mr. Judy a nice little welcome message because I don't know if the wagon rolled around for this noob or not. I kind of get the sense that he didn't feel loved enough, lol
My God I LOVE this $hit!
-John
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#347571 - 06/24/07 08:54 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Leo_E_49]
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more than just a pretty face
Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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#347572 - 06/24/07 09:56 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Saisho]
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Member
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
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Everybody knows the only answer to knife attacks is "teh gunz." I want to know what kind of unarmed knife counter can be produced that doesn't rely on clinch grappling and taking the attacker to the ground.
Also, Kogas. Either you or Taison posted some dog brothers stuff a while back. Have you seen Die Less Often, and if you have, any opinions? The promo video's are just beautiful. Great knife defense stuff.
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#347573 - 06/24/07 10:41 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Viator]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
Everybody knows the only answer to knife attacks is "teh gunz." I want to know what kind of unarmed knife counter can be produced that doesn't rely on clinch grappling and taking the attacker to the ground.
Oh, you want to put them on the ground, but groundfight with them? No way.
You WANT to clinch with someone who knows how to use blades? 
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#347574 - 06/24/07 10:51 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Member
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
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Quote:
You WANT to clinch with someone who knows how to use blades?
You're misapprehending. I only want clinch range because that's control range, I'm not talking about plum clinching to throw knees. I'd rather clinch with control than stand back in stabbing range. Preference would be to have enough distance to draw and fire, but I don't carry a gun or a knife myself.
I think your reading kogas wrong too. Unless I'm very mistaken he's not talking about double legging and working for position when attacked with a knife, he's talking about BJJ's grasp of ground combat being useful if it goes to the ground. And he's objecting to you being an asshat and labeling him as some sort of TUF noob because he practices BJJ and you practice the infinitly superior small circle.
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