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#347495 - 06/19/07 04:49 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: CA_Isshinryu]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
The only thing I would add is that someone with good ground skills is more likely to be able to get UP again if he gets taken to the ground than your 'average Joe.'

THAT would be an advantage in a multiple attacker scenario.
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#347496 - 06/19/07 06:39 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Kimo2007]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?




The premise is flawed. Ground fighting never fell to the wayside. It has always existed and always will. It has thrived in schools and colleges around the world. It has never ceased to be an olymipc sport. It has even thrived as theater.

The only difference now is that there is a post collegiate/ olympic professional option that is not degrading freak show i.e. professional wrestling. Few sensible human beings aspire to be a part of a sham.

There are two reasons for the current trends in the arts.

1. The ability to capure the imagination.

And

2.The ablitity to generate revenue.


In the past grappling was trained in schools not in gyms. There was very little money to be made from a high school or college or even olympic training.

With the advent of the UFC people can imagine training in a way they had not considered prior to now. They can imagine becomeing the UFC champ in the same way a guy in the 70ies
imagined they could become Brue Lee Chuck Norris or Bill Wallace.

Since most people won't or can there are those that will hope to make a living providing training to competitive hopefuls. Since there are reletivly few of those they will be forced , most likely to teach people looking to learn effective self defense. If the trainer is skilled, as in old boxing gyms they will take people under ther wing and train them to the highest level they can all the while caring for the whole person.

Standup and ground have always been there doing what they do in there respective arenas. In the 90ies they came crashing together and changed the landscape but not the underlying human needs.

Health, safety, income, to be esteemed , setting and meeting goals, to share what one learns with others in our circle of influence, and be involed in pursuits that challenge and inspire, and capture the imagination.

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#347497 - 06/19/07 07:43 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: oldman]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

The premise is flawed. Ground fighting never fell to the wayside




So far I have been reading and enjoying the responses and was planning to see what developed before I offered an opinion.

But this comment is the Chinese Kung Fu theatre equivelent of "your Kung Fu is weak" and cannot go unchallenged.

The premise of the question is valid because in certain systems it is/was ignored. I think everyone who has responded has made the leap in understanding ground fighting was around in it's many forms but people who believed they were studying a complete fighting system were not studying ground fighting and grappling very much or at all.

The premise is it has not always been that way, what happened?

Now stop causing trouble Oldman.
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#347498 - 06/19/07 09:01 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: CA_Isshinryu]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Amen.
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#347499 - 06/19/07 09:43 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: CA_Isshinryu]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
As Old man stated, ground fight has NEVER fallen by the way side. It's been practiced for EONS. That some folks forgot about it or omitted it for whatever reason is another story. Why they did so has multiple answers.

It is understandable in one instance to think that ground fighting WAS omitted or forgotten about. We can clearly see that this was truly never the case for a lot of people. I think that needs to be clearly understood.


-John


Edited by JKogas (06/20/07 07:33 AM)

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#347500 - 06/19/07 09:56 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: butterfly]
MayanWarrior Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 6
Loc: el asso, tx
I know we can thank the sudden surge of popularity lately of ground fighting, hence mcdojo's are poping up faster than starbucks, jamba juice spinoffs and walmarts.
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#347501 - 06/19/07 10:02 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: jpoor]
MayanWarrior Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 6
Loc: el asso, tx
Quote:

The only thing I would add is that someone with good ground skills is more likely to be able to get UP again if he gets taken to the ground than your 'average Joe.'

THAT would be an advantage in a multiple attacker scenario.




If your talking BJJ it is one on one not multiple attackers. how can you see other targets when you have your attention trying to get a submission hold on one person in front of you?
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#347502 - 06/19/07 10:14 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: MayanWarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I know we can thank the sudden surge of popularity lately of ground fighting, hence mcdojo's are poping up faster than starbucks, jamba juice spinoffs and walmarts.





By that you mean, the one's that weren't already in place teaching traditional martial arts?


Quote:

If your talking BJJ it is one on one not multiple attackers. how can you see other targets when you have your attention trying to get a submission hold on one person in front of you?





By being skilled enough to do so perhaps? By having eyes in the back of your head and sense for these things? By understanding that specific tactical decisions are based on circumstances? Etc. etc.?


-John

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#347503 - 06/19/07 10:26 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: oldman]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Oldman

I think you make a really interesting point.

Hard if not impossible to seperate an art from its social context.

A number "gentlemen" in Victorian and Edwardian England studied jujutsu/baritsu etc for self defense as street crime was rampant then.

But they didn't focus much on ground fighting--they certainly taught it--just was not the focus.

One reason might be that it was that gentlemen of the period often carried sword-sticks, sturdy canes etc that could be used as very overt weapons or pressed into service as weapons of opportunity.

A entire section of savate training was devoted to the cane, once a common and indespensible item for man in public.

Then it pretty much disappered for many decades---and recently you now seeing article after article in various MA mags about "cane defense."

It all comes around again--sooner or later.


Edited by cxt (06/19/07 10:28 PM)
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#347504 - 06/19/07 10:28 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: MayanWarrior]
Viator Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
Quote:

If your talking BJJ it is one on one not multiple attackers. how can you see other targets when you have your attention trying to get a submission hold on one person in front of you?




Position before submission. A BJJ student should be able to pass the guard of some one unskilled pretty much at will. A BJJ student actually knows what a guard is, so they're generally not stuck in it as long. If it comes to that a quickly cranked submission can take the fight right out of most people. But hopefully, if you know your ground game and your opponent doesn't, you can escape to standing.

EDIT: Oldman said everything I wanted to say 100x better. All I can add to that my hypothesis that the UFC contributed to the rise of ground fighting as an avenue for training and also as an easily accesable sample of what ground fighting is capable of. It's common sense that a punch or kick hurts, it takes more convincing to realize what competantly applied grappling can do.


Edited by Viator (06/19/07 10:41 PM)

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