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#347575 - 06/24/07 11:23 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Viator]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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Jim_Judy wroteQuote:
You WANT to clinch with someone who knows how to use blades?
If the knife is already IN you, you’re ALREADY in the clinch. You’ve been stuck once, now it’s important not to take that second, third, fourth, fifth, 27th stab, right? Usually it’s not the first stab that kills you. It’s all the other ones that come after because you never had control of the weapon arm.
So basically, I’m trying to PREVENT further damage by controlling the man. That is what I meant by clinching to deal with a blade.
Viator wrote
Quote:
You're misapprehending. I only want clinch range because that's control range, I'm not talking about plum clinching to throw knees. I'd rather clinch with control than stand back in stabbing range. Preference would be to have enough distance to draw and fire, but I don't carry a gun or a knife myself.
BINGO! FINALLY, someone with enough sense understands! That is exactly what I was saying. Clinch means control. NO control means more stabbing. More stabbing means you’re DEAD.
Quote:
I think your reading kogas wrong too.
Of course he is. But there was never any intention to read me correctly. Either that or he’s simply unable to. YOU seem to understand succinctly what I’ve been saying. It’s a shame that others don’t either take the time to understand my point or, have a bias against me and a resulting bitterness so sour that they can’t even BEGIN to understand. Which may be the case here.
I could be wrong, but Jim Judy somehow “sounds” familiar to me. Perhaps he will also with other long time forum veterans?
Quote:
Unless I'm very mistaken he's not talking about double legging and working for position when attacked with a knife, he's talking about BJJ's grasp of ground combat being useful if it goes to the ground.
It’s that but that’s not all. I certainly wouldn’t NOT advise anyone to go to the ground against someone armed with a knife. But you damn sure better know what to do in case you do get taken there.
My idea of grappling against a blade is more clinch oriented whereby I might be able to prevent further damage in the case that I’ve already been hit. I mean, common sense tells me to RUN LIKE HELL if I were to see someone brandish a knife in front of me. I’m sure not going to stand there and fight him empty hand, which must be the strategy being put forth by Jim Judy (although I would HATE to assume his position, even if he’s unwilling to do so with me).
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And he's objecting to you being an asshat and labeling him as some sort of TUF noob because he practices BJJ and you practice the infinitly superior small circle.
Yes. We know it’s superior because we’ve all seen those small circle guys handle the jits guys in competition. I mean, it’s COMMONPLACE, lol!
-John
PS: Jim Judy - don't say I didn't warn you!
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#347576 - 06/25/07 12:14 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Viator]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
Quote:
You WANT to clinch with someone who knows how to use blades? 
You're misapprehending. I only want clinch range because that's control range, I'm not talking about plum clinching to throw knees. I'd rather clinch with control than stand back in stabbing range. Preference would be to have enough distance to draw and fire, but I don't carry a gun or a knife myself.
I think your reading kogas wrong too. Unless I'm very mistaken he's not talking about double legging and working for position when attacked with a knife, he's talking about BJJ's grasp of ground combat being useful if it goes to the ground. And he's objecting to you being an asshat and labeling him as some sort of TUF noob because he practices BJJ and you practice the infinitly superior small circle.
Well, thanks for not resorting to your little e-insult until the last half of the post  You at least seem to be more interested in making sense as opposed to pretending that something is acheived by trading insults over the Internet 
Just curious, in your training, how do you move from being completely outside of range of the blade to clinching range?
Do you prefer to be inside or outside when a blade is involved?
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#347577 - 06/25/07 12:38 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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Quote:
Do you prefer to be inside or outside when a blade is involved?
I'd prefer the blade to be on the outside.
(sorry, bad pun. -couldn't resist.) 
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#347578 - 06/25/07 01:51 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: JKogas]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
If the knife if already IN you, you’re ALREADY in the clinch. You’ve been stuck once, now it’s important not to take that second, third, fourth, fifth, 27th stab, right? Usually it’s not the first stab that kills you. It’s all the other ones that come after because you never had control of the weapon arm.
So basically, I’m trying to PREVENT further damage by controlling the man. That is what I meant by clinching to deal with a blade.
So let me get this straight. You begin knife defense drills under the assumption that you already have the knife in you?
Have you ever been assaulted with a knife? I have, twice. I got a minor stab wound in the thigh the first time (the guy tried a jailyard rush), and a cut on the hand the second time.
Clinching was the last thing on my mind. You don't close to clinching range & THEN try to get control of the knife hand. You need to assure that you can gain control before you enter.
Quote:
BINGO! FINALLY, someone with enough sense understands! That is exactly what I was saying. Clinch means control. NO control means more stabbing. More stabbing means you’re DEAD.
Is this the logic that you were talking about earlier? Finally something that I can agree with. More stabbing means you're DEAD.
I feel a new sig coming on...
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Of course he is. But there was never any intention to read me correctly. Either that or he’s simply unable to.
Quote:
YOU seem to understand succinctly what I’ve been saying. It’s a shame that others don’t either take the time to understand my point or, have a bias against me and a resulting bitterness so sour that they can’t even BEGIN to understand. Which may be the case here.
What the hell are you on about?
Quote:
I could be wrong, but Jim Judy somehow “sounds” familiar to me. Perhaps he will also with other long time forum veterans?
Oh, so if I don't agree with you, then I must be some other guy from your past that likewise disagreed with either your posting style or your lack of understanding on certain aspects of Martial Arts/Life/Whatever, or also thought you come across like a 
It must be that I am someone from your past come back to e-haunt you!!!
It has to be a conspiracy of some sort, because heaven forbid there may actually be more than one person out there that disagrees with you & your little world view.
Quote:
It’s that but that’s not all. I certainly wouldn’t NOT advise anyone to go to the ground against someone armed with a knife. But you damn sure better know what to do in case you do get taken there.
Okay, I can get on board with that. Never let it be said that I think groundfighting is useless. Staying there, however, is a waste of time.
Quote:
My idea of grappling against a blade is more clinch oriented whereby I might be able to prevent further damage in the case that I’ve already been hit. I mean, common sense tells me to RUN LIKE HELL if I were to see someone brandish a knife in front of me. I’m sure not going to stand there and fight him empty hand, which must be the strategy being put forth by Jim Judy (although I would HATE to assume his position, even if he’s unwilling to do so with me).
I likewise would opt to run, if I could. That's a given.
When discussing running, however, I'd spend time on a track&field forum.
When discussing knife defense, I frequent MA forums.
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#347579 - 06/25/07 02:34 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Veteran
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
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Actually Jim_Judy, most knife defence systems that I'm aware of include what I would call 'graplling'. As a matter of fact, in terms of Koryu Japanese arts, they all include lots of blade work--both ofensive and definsive, and they all include some from of 'grappling'. Quote:
Clinching was the last thing on my mind. You don't close to clinching range & THEN try to get control of the knife hand. You need to assure that you can gain control before you enter
Hmmm, when you 'control the knife hand' are you striking? If not, you're grappling. Old Jujutsu systems are basically a way of grappling which involves weapons.
As for the original question of what happened to ground fighting, I don't think it went anywhere. As I said, alot of Koryu jujutsu never lost it, Judo never lost it, wrestling, etc...
There is also something to be said for the point raised that many of the old masters that I'm aware of trained in a resistive grappling art (i.e., Sumo, Judo, Mongolian Wrestling etc)
--Chris
Edited by Ames (06/25/07 02:35 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho
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#347580 - 06/25/07 03:35 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ames]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
Actually Jim_Judy, most knife defence systems that I'm aware of include what I would call 'graplling'.
Yes, I'm aware, but my idea of grappling has grown in the last couple years.
Quote:
As a matter of fact, in terms of Koryu Japanese arts, they all include lots of blade work--both ofensive and definsive, and they all include some from of 'grappling'.
Quote:
Clinching was the last thing on my mind. You don't close to clinching range & THEN try to get control of the knife hand. You need to assure that you can gain control before you enter
Hmmm, when you 'control the knife hand' are you striking? If not, you're grappling. Old Jujutsu systems are basically a way of grappling which involves weapons.
Sometimes I'm striking, sometime I'm blocking & sticking, & sometimes I'm momentarily grappling. But I certainly don't "clinch". I don't move in until I've dealt with the blade-limb.
I used to think that all that "Koryu" stuff was great, until I got into FMAs & Silat. Now I question most of it. It seems to work great against other JMAs, but I don't use it against the Indonesian blade stuff I'm doing now. For one, I wouldn't be learning much if I didn't empty my cup, and two, it doesn't work all that well, I tried it already & that's why I switched.
Quote:
As for the original question of what happened to ground fighting, I don't think it went anywhere. As I said, alot of Koryu jujutsu never lost it, Judo never lost it, wrestling, etc...
Agreed. It's utility was brought into question and it was put on the back burner, that's all.
Quote:
There is also something to be said for the point raised that many of the old masters that I'm aware of trained in a resistive grappling art (i.e., Sumo, Judo, Mongolian Wrestling etc)
--Chris
Which old masters were those, if you don't mind my asking?
I'm not saying that grappling is bad, or that joint manipulation is bad. It's not. Being unarmed and moving into clinching range against a knife is what I objected to, especially when the other guy knows what he's doing with the blade.
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#347581 - 06/25/07 06:21 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Veteran
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
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Quote:
I used to think that all that "Koryu" stuff was great, until I got into FMAs & Silat. Now I question most of it. It seems to work great against other JMAs , but I don't use it against the Indonesian blade stuff I'm doing now. For one, I wouldn't be learning much if I didn't empty my cup, and two, it doesn't work all that well, I tried it already & that's why I switched.
It also worked pretty well against the Mongolian's who were the best army in the world at the time.
How long did you 'try it' for? I'm not saying it's any better than Silat. I am however saying it's a perfectly viable example of 'grappling with a knife', which you said was not the thing to do.
Quote:
Agreed. It's utility was brought into question and it was put on the back burner, that's all.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that many systems kept ground techniques and never lost them. In terms of the Koryu arts, I'm using that example because they were made for the battlefield (where the use of weapons was to be expected). These systems kept ground fighting because it's another plane of combat. The people who studied these arts knew that going to the ground was a possiblity and so they trained it.
Quote:
Sometimes I'm striking, sometime I'm blocking & sticking, & sometimes I'm momentarily grappling. But I certainly don't "clinch". I don't move in until I've dealt with the blade-limb.
I disagree with this. It's not the limb holding the blade that has to be dealt with, it's the whole person. Even when controlling the limb, his centre of gravity should be controlled. One of those meaningless things Japanese Jujutsu teaches you.
Quote:
Which old masters were those, if you don't mind my asking?
I don't mind you asking at all. A few I remember off the top of my head: Sogaku Takeda (Sumo), Morihei Ueshiba (Sumo/Judo), Chojun Miyagi (Judo) and there's a lot more than that, but that's all the names coming to me right now. My understanding is that many Samurai, besides their Bujutsu training, also engaged in more sporting wrestling. I've also read that Tai Chi push hands comes from Shuio Chio (s.p.). I know that a few of the older Bagua masters were also wrestlers. Wrestling is the primary source of all combative arts that involve joint locking.
Quote:
Yes, I'm aware, but my idea of grappling has grown in the last couple years.
I'm not entirely sure what this means.
Alot is said about how bad going to the ground is in a real fight. I would never want to do so. But it happens. I'd rather know what to there than try and scratch and claw like a cornered cat. At least someone who studies Judo/BJJ or something that involves takedowns, might not be as startled when they go there, and able to start working immediatly to stand up again.
Martial arts is training for the worst case scenerios, not the best.
Edited by Ames (06/25/07 06:31 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho
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#347582 - 06/25/07 06:59 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ames]
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wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
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Quote:
It also worked pretty well against the Mongolian's who were the best army in the world at the time.
Really? I would say that the "KamiKaze" was more instrumental in the Mongol's defeat.
Quote:
How long did you 'try it' for? I'm not saying it's any better than Silat. I am however saying it's a perfectly viable example of 'grappling with a knife', which you said was not the thing to do.
How long? Almost full-time from '93 to '03, JJJ was all I did in one form or another (Grappling).
Quote:
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that many systems kept ground techniques and never lost them. In terms of the Koryu arts, I'm using that example because they were made for the battlefield (where the use of weapons was to be expected). These systems kept ground fighting because it's another plane of combat. The people who studied these arts knew that going to the ground was a possiblity and so they trained it.
I don't see newaza from the knees, or on occassion lower, the same as extended time on the ground, or BJJ principles such as the Mount or the Guard.
Quote:
Quote:
Sometimes I'm striking, sometime I'm blocking & sticking, & sometimes I'm momentarily grappling. But I certainly don't "clinch". I don't move in until I've dealt with the blade-limb.
I disagree with this. It's not the limb holding the blade that has to be dealt with, it's the whole person. Even when controlling the limb, his centre of gravity should be controlled. One of those meaningless things Japanese Jujutsu teaches you.
Please don't get condescending. That sounds like some woo-woo aikido crap. Besides, I'm never going to get so confounded or captivated by that weapon hand that I forsake awareness of the rest of his limbs. However, I'm more interested in damaging that limb & getting rid of that weapon, since I always want to assume that the other guy may know something that he's not letting on, such as some highspeed weapon retention skills. Before I know it, I'm in very close range and he gets loose from my technique and he still has his weapon. Let's hope it's not on the lowline... 
Quote:
Quote:
Which old masters were those, if you don't mind my asking?
I don't mind you asking at all. A few I remember off the top of my head: Sogaku Takeda (Sumo), Morihei Ueshiba (Sumo/Judo), Chojun Miyagi (Judo) and there's a lot more than that, but that's all the names coming to me right now. My understanding is that many Samurai, besides their Bujutsu training, also engaged in more sporting wrestling. I've also read that Tai Chi push hands comes from Shuio Chio (s.p.). I know that a few of the older Bagua masters were also wrestlers. Wrestling is the primary source of all combative arts that involve joint locking.
Hey, even Kimura crosstrained with Mas Oyama, punched & shuto'ed makiwara & such, and felt that it benefited his Judo. That's cool.
But Kimura the Judo master himself said that his favorite SD technique was to grab the guy's balls and squeeze as hard is he could...
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, I'm aware, but my idea of grappling has grown in the last couple years.
I'm not entirely sure what this means.
Don't worry, I'm still figuring it out myself 
Quote:
Alot is said about how bad going to the ground is in a real fight. I would never want to do so. But it happens. I'd rather know what to there than try and scratch and claw like a cornered cat. At least someone who studies Judo/BJJ or something that involves takedowns, might not be as startled when they go there, and able to start working immediatly to stand up again.
Martial arts is training for the worst case scenerios, not the best.
I completely and utterly agree with you there. I've been learning alot of grapple-counters and escapes that will definitely help if & when I get back to my JJJ/BBT roots. 
Edited by Jim_Judy (06/25/07 07:05 AM)
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#347583 - 06/25/07 07:23 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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Jim Judy wroteQuote:
Well, thanks for not resorting to your little e-insult until the last half of the post You at least seem to be more interested in making sense as opposed to pretending that something is acheived by trading insults over the Internet
Lets not forget that you fired the FIRST salvo. Don't remember? Let me remind you with your own quote:
Quote:
"Discover your OWN truths folk"? That's a joke.
Need I go on? Yes, here's more from the great Jim Judy:
Quote:
Are you out there discovering your own truth? No, you bought some BJJ BS hook, line, & sinker.
Thanks for that insult!
I'd not said a DAMNED thing or been disrespectful to you in any way on this thread prior to that. So don't be a hypocrite. Don't go around pretending that it was I who first insulted you.
Quote:
Just curious, in your training, how do you move from being completely outside of range of the blade to clinching range?
By starting with the premise that we have NOT seen the blade at all (in the first place) and then having to deal with it from the point that we have already been hit. That is the one of the more realistic scenarios.
Quote:
Do you prefer to be inside or outside when a blade is involved?
I prefer to be about a hundred yards away if that helps. I have no fantasies regarding knife fighting. Do you?
Quote:
So let me get this straight. You begin knife defense drills under the assumption that you already have the knife in you?
I’m going to waste my time and answer yes. That’s called a surprise assault. That’s because anyone with half a brain realizes that a “good” knifer won’t allow you to see the knife until he either has it IN you already or is in close (clinch) range to begin with.
Seriously, what good would it do me to brandish a blade without being close enough to USE it, lol! If I do that, most people in their right mind would simply run. If I’m a knifer, that wouldn’t allow me to accomplish my objective -- whatever that might be.
Duh?!
So it’s a “worst case scenario”, in other words. I try and deal with realities instead of getting caught up in too many “arts” which often emphasize either having a blade yourself (too late) or being to complex for reality.
I’m warning you again bro. I’m not going to waste a whole lot of time with you.
Quote:
Have you ever been assaulted with a knife? I have, twice. I got a minor stab wound in the thigh the first time (the guy tried a jailyard rush), and a cut on the hand the second time.
To answer your question, yes. I’ve been assaulted with a knife. And it happened in extremely close range.
Quote:
Clinching was the last thing on my mind. You don't close to clinching range & THEN try to get control of the knife hand. You need to assure that you can gain control before you enter.
Tell you what bro, I’m going to save myself some time and anguish and just direct you here. http://dogbrothersvideo.com/interfacetrailer.wmv
You apparently haven’t discovered yet that it’s difficult to convey meaning and context across the limitations on an internet forum.
Everyone can check out that video to give you a taste of what our weapons program consists of.
Quote:
Is this the logic that you were talking about earlier? Finally something that I can agree with. More stabbing means you're DEAD.
I feel a new sig coming on…
You’re wasting a lot of your own time.
Quote:
Oh, so if I don't agree with you, then I must be some other guy from your past that likewise disagreed with either your posting style or your lack of understanding on certain aspects of Martial Arts/Life/Whatever, or also thought you come across like a
No, you just come across like someone from my past who disagreed with my posts and also was a complete jackass.
Its one thing to disagree, it’s another to deliver it in the way you do. I have no issue at all with people disagreeing with me. I DO take issue to being disrespected..
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It must be that I am someone from your past come back to e-haunt you!!!
Don’t know. Could be. Maybe it’s someone like Krunkenstein who has the same apparent mental imbalance that you do.
Quote:
It has to be a conspiracy of some sort, because heaven forbid there may actually be more than one person out there that disagrees with you & your little world view.
Certainly people disagree with me. They just don’t do so in that same schizophrenic way that you and a select few others have. I can just see the spittle flying from your face as you read my posts and nervously get to typing.
I would offer you a chance to hook up and disagree face to face. But you’re just like every other of these VTGs that roam the internet. We could get together and train and then you might be able to more clearly see where I’m coming from.
Care to do that? After all, you have spent some time in North Carolina, is that not correct? Where do you train now?
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Okay, I can get on board with that. Never let it be said that I think groundfighting is useless. Staying there, however, is a waste of time.
That’s your opinion. Thanks for that. I’ll add it to the thousands of others that I’ve received.
By the way, the original topic of this thread which according to YOU has been “put on the back burner”, should probably resume?
If you have any further rantings against me, perhaps you should start another thread?
-John
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#347584 - 06/25/07 07:52 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Jim_Judy]
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Veteran
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
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Quote:
Really? I would say that the "KamiKaze" was more instrumental in the Mongol's defeat.
Although in the second invasion it did play a part, but how big? In a country steeped in religion, who knows how much they wanted to believe they were protected by the gods? In the first invasion, the typhoon was minimal.
Here's an okay history:
http://www.taots.co.uk/content/view/25/30/
Quote:
I don't see newaza from the knees, or on occassion lower, the same as extended time on the ground, or BJJ principles such as the Mount or the Guard.
Well no, being on the knees is not the same. Mount or Guard are both found in Koryu systems. As for extended time on the ground, that really depends on how good you are.
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Please don't get condescending. That sounds like some woo-woo aikido crap.
How is controlling your opponents centre of gravity "woo-woo aikido crap"? Have you actually thrown any one, in real life and not controlled they're centre of gravity?
Quote:
However, I'm more interested in damaging that limb & getting rid of that weapon, since I always want to assume that the other guy may know something that he's not letting on, such as some highspeed weapon retention skills.
Damaging the limb is good sometimes, such as breaking the joint (JJJ, BJJ), hyperextension, etc.
Quote:
But Kimura the Judo master himself said that his favorite SD technique was to grab the guy's balls and squeeze as hard is he could...
Not to dispute Kimura, but, although things like this may work, often times they don't. I've seen kicks, punches and grabs to the groin the do nothing but make you're opponent more angry. Especially if he's intoxicated.
Quote:
I've been learning alot of grapple-counters and escapes that will definitely help if & when I get back to my JJJ/BBT roots.
The only thing that can help with ground fighting is learning to fight on the ground. Even an eyegouge, without the proper delivery system (i.e. groundfighting ability) has little chance of success unless the opponent is positionally controlled first, in which case there are a variety of options availible.
JKogas wrote:
Quote:
I’m going to waste my time and answer yes. That’s called a surprise assault.
This is only logical. I practice from this point all the time as well (i.e. the knife already making contact from the front or the back). I also practice with the knife being deployed early (so I see it), the knife coming at me while both I and the attacker are on the ground, or the attacker up and myself on the ground. It shows you just how difficult it is to defend against.
--Chris
--Chris
Edited by Ames (06/25/07 08:02 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho
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