FightingArts
Estore |
Pressure
Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit
that can save your life. |
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks
with this method. |
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique
and lasting. |
Karate
Uniforms
Look your best.
Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak
Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.
|
MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores. |
|
|
|
0 registered (),
28
Guests and
1
Spider online. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
22740 Members
36 Forums
35473 Topics
431972 Posts
Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
|
|
|
#347545 - 06/23/07 10:44 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Saisho]
|
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
|
Wow. Lots of good back-n-forth here! Genuinely enjoying all the different viewpoints. Quote by Ed Morris - Quote:
'taking a fight to the ground' is different than gaining control while standing and submitting on the ground to make an arrest, John.
Is it? I'm not sure I see the distinction. But I know I see officers use it on every episode of COPS I have ever seen, LOL. 
Quote by cxt -
Quote:
Its almost always the stuff you really don't know that gets you hurt.
Couldn't agree more.
Quote by Ed Morris -
Quote:
were Chinese largely unaware of groundfighting skills for a thousand years since most Arts written about seem to exclusively be stand-up and partial-ground fighting arts? or did the need of defending on two feet outweigh the urgency of defending from all fours?
Good point, and something I have wondered about myself, although Mongolian wrestling traditions fit in there somewhere, I guess. 
Quote by Saisho -
Quote:
I am a medical/anatomy professional. Don't overlook what is being said and by whom. I am merely saying that a lot of rules are designed to protect the fighters, and in my opinion, they give some freedoms to the grappler. The most common thing to hear the ref say in a UFC fight is "watch the back of the head". It gets said a lot and for good reason.
I understand your point. I am NOT a medical professional, but I know what I have seen. 
Just trying to make a point that not every elbow to the back of the head means death for the receiver. I still don't see this (disallowing elbows to the back of the head) as a gigantic disadvantage for the strikers, as they still have full use of knees, elbows and punches to the face. JMO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347546 - 06/23/07 11:07 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Kimo2007]
|
Professional Poster
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5883
|
Hey Guys, Quote:
Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
I think one way to change and clarify the question a bit is to ask...
Why DOES ground fighting fall to the way side?
One reason is that it is very hard. The more difficult an endeavor is the fewer people wil stay with it. Particularly if the payoff for the behavior is not immediate. Long term training for something that might happen in the future is like the dicipline of saving money. Most people don't because there is no immediate pay off. People miss the value of incremental gains and compounding your investment wheither its money or time on the mat. The more intangible the payoff the higher the dropoff rate.
So the number one reason ITS HARD!
Reason #2. They don't need it.
Well they may or may not. If we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs you can figure out why the person is choosing to train it. If it is for self defense a person may be on the very low end of the needs scale and trying to meet there needs for safety. If so there are probably better ways to do that.
people try to do the same with TMA. There are more effective faster means to do that so grappling or karate may be a waste of time.
If on the other hand one wants to take responsiblity for their health and wellbeing. Belong with a group, learn grow, challenge and stimulate themselves and ultimately explore the meaning and purpose of their lives grappling is as good a way to do that as any.
Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
It's hard and people meet their needs in other ways.
Once again what is the reward and how does it capture the imagination?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347547 - 06/23/07 12:36 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: oldman]
|
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
|
Excellent post, Mark!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347548 - 06/23/07 12:39 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: oldman]
|
Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
|
CXT wroteQuote:
A "better" one?
I don't know, but as long as we understand the limits and drives of the UFC its resonably seviceable--but the sun does not rise and set on the UFC.
I agree. But it isn’t necessarily the “UFC” that I’m referring to so much as the live environment. IMO, there should be SOME sort of “acid test” through which a person is able to test themselves and their technique. That can be any given thing so long as it reasonably allows resistance and allowance for all “ranges” of h2h and allows folks to train against other, reasonable skilled and conditioned athletes (as opposed to drunk, out of shape, chain smoking, slobs - by way of comparison).
Quote:
At the end of the day its a business and its techniques and tactics etc are driven by what the customers--not overt combat effectiveness--find appealing.
Certainly so, though again my mention of the “UFC” was merely an example.
Quote:
LEO's take people to the ground for far differnt reasons than a civlian might--mainly to cuff them.
Of course. They also do so to keep them under greater control before cuffing them in the way armed guards might place prisoners on the ground. The object being to control them and limit their movements.
I once saw a security guard tackle a person at an amusement park. It was interesting because the guy (big strong man) was moving around like a boxer beating this other guy (a patron) senseless. The guard came in and the guy squared off with him. Throwing shots in a controlled manner. The guard used a fairly unsophisticated, “red neck” tackle and took the guy straight down. No more boxing. Then his partner joined him a moment later and everything was basically cool.
What’s the point of this story? I don’t know, lol. Basically that ground fighting is often the best strategy when it appears that you could be knocked the F out.
Quote:
Its not an either/or, ground fighting is a TACTIC sometimes a stratagy.
That’s been my opinion for a long time.
Quote:
Better to be prepared and have options than not.
Exactly, which is why I’m always encouraging people to be well rounded.
Quote:
If your assuming that you can't or won't be taken to the ground--I would guess that is exactly the skills your going to end up needing.
Its almost always the stuff you really don't know that gets you hurt.
Bingo! I couldn’t have said it better myself!
Ed_Morris wroteQuote:
nope. I can't think of any end-all measuring stick.
But the question was, can you think of a BETTER measuring stick? I'm betting you could think of a WORSE one, correct? I know I can. How about point sparring for starters?
Quote:
so the objective is to stay on your feet.
No. The objective is to avoid fighting.
Quote:
well, running away is the best case if possible...but that doesn't necessarily eliminate the threat.
Neither does choosing to stay on your feet and "trade" blows with your opponent.
-John
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347549 - 06/23/07 01:46 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: JKogas]
|
Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
|
I added this earlier - and I agree with most of your views...
I'm only talking about intent..but stuff happens and attacks that last long enough to be a struggle do seem to always go to ground - which is why it's better, if you are training for well-rounded self-defense, to have ground fighting skill.
some TMA's choose to only train with response to initial attack. that perhaps makes them less well-rounded, but it does not necessarily make them 'less effective'.
--
If it is someone's occupation or demograph that regularly puts them in high risk situations then it does make sense that they would train handling all ranges. ...The rest do MA for mostly enjoyment and the other aspects Mark has mentioned.
so if a person chooses boxing and it's specific fighting range for enjoyment, does that necessarily make them ineffective at defending themselves? of course not. even though, granted, you can't say they are any more 'rounded' than a grapple range-only artist. but we also cannot say that either one is ineffective just because they don't train all ranges.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347550 - 06/23/07 01:57 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
|
Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
|
Ed Morris wrote:Quote:
I'm only talking about intent..but stuff happens and attacks that last long enough to be a struggle do seem to always go to ground - which is why it's better, if you are training for well-rounded self-defense, to have ground fighting skill.
I argue that the choice to go to the ground can sometimes be a preferred strategy.
Quote:
some TMA's choose to only train with response to initial attack. that perhaps makes them less well-rounded, but it does not necessarily make them 'less effective'.
I disagree. To train to respond to the initial attack is to train with the assumption that you CAN deal with the initial attack. My opinion is, that response may not be sufficient to deal with repeated attacks.
Quote:
If it is someone's occupation or demograph that regularly puts them in high risk situations then it does make sense that they would train handling all ranges. ...The rest do MA for mostly enjoyment and the other aspects Mark has mentioned.
Of course. Training should always be for enjoyment. That’s my opinion.
Quote:
so if a person chooses boxing and it's specific fighting range for enjoyment, does that necessarily make them ineffective at defending themselves?
Not necessarily, no.
Quote:
even though, granted, you can't say they are any more 'rounded' than a grapple range-only artist. but we also cannot say that either one is ineffective just because they don't train all ranges.
You could say that if one chooses boxing, he/she may or may not be effective at that range. But you possibly CAN say that if they end up on the ground, they could be screwed. Of course, it’s ALL a crap-shoot anyway isn’t it?
-John
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347551 - 06/23/07 05:49 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
|
Veteran
Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
|
Quote:
so if a person chooses boxing and it's specific fighting range for enjoyment, does that necessarily make them ineffective at defending themselves? of course not. even though, granted, you can't say they are any more 'rounded' than a grapple range-only artist. but we also cannot say that either one is ineffective just because they don't train all ranges.
I think all ranges/ techniques have to be trained. If a person only trains in boxing finds his self on his knees or his back what might he do? His instincts might dictate he only tries to get up? In that situation he would more than likely lose against some one who has experience in that part of a fight. Perhaps the difference between winning and losing might be missed chances
I think old man was correct. Ground fighting might require a lot of hard training. Perhaps in the UFC the fighters have become quite skilled on the ground? Therefore less takedowns?
Jude
Edited by jude33 (06/23/07 05:56 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347552 - 06/23/07 09:52 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: jude33]
|
Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
|
Quote:
I think all ranges/ techniques have to be trained. If a person only trains in boxing finds his self on his knees or his back what might he do?
I think if people sincerely train for "self-defense" and intentionally don't include all ranges, they have their heads in the sand. You leave a hole in your defense by doing so.
If people train just for enjoyment, then they should do whatever gives them enjoyment.
Quote:
I think old man was correct. Ground fighting might require a lot of hard training.
Actually I don't think it's any harder than any decent boxing or kickboxing program. In fact, its often easier. Jiu-jitsu is the "gentle art" for a reason. Often grappling isn't trained in this fashion but that's another story.
Quote:
Perhaps in the UFC the fighters have become quite skilled on the ground? Therefore less takedowns?
I don't know that there are less takedowns. But more wrestlers are in the UFC than any other time. You often can't tell because many of them prefer to keep a fight standing (think Liddell).
-John
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347553 - 06/23/07 11:38 PM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: jude33]
|
Veteran
Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
|
So been offline for awhile and it's seems the posts have veered off and on topic and back off again, but the give and take is nice.
I think we all agree that being well rounded is a good thing to be. I think we all also think that there are times when ground tactics (LEO) are a good first choice.
But I always seperate a person who's job it is the keep order (LEO, bouncer, etc) from the average person walking down the street.
Sure you grapple lovers you can think of scenarios that going to the ground is a good idea, I have said repeatedly, there are no absolutes. It's not black and white, there are variables.
But chosing grappling over striking (assuming you can do either) is the exception, not the rule. The recent rise of grapplings image thanks to the Gracies has many people thinking that is wrong, that is troubling to me.
Also remember that in the early UFC the grapplers won because the strikers didn't respect it and had no answer for it. Taking candy from a baby someone likes to say, well that is no longer the case, the secret is out and anyone fighting knows they need a defense to it, so the fights are more balanced skill wise.
No offense to anyone but I can't think of any competive actvity where if you compete against someone who doesn't know how to do it, you would lose. Be is basketball or BJJ.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#347554 - 06/24/07 05:39 AM
Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side?
[Re: Ed_Morris]
|
wants to be loved
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
|
Quote:
Judo for instance, which is non-percussive.
heheheh. What kind of Judo are you doing that lacks atemi?
Quote:
perhaps Karate 'lost' it's ground-art aspects when it was stopped being used/taught to civilian police and instead taught at Universities. The need usually facilitates the change.
You've obviously never seen Okinawan Police in action. I'd pick a fight with a Tokyo cop over an Okinawan cop any day of the week!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Untitled Document
Self
Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray,
tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.
Pepper
Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos,
stun guns, Tasers and more.
Spy
Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment,
Pocket DVR's and more
Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index
