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#347515 - 06/21/07 12:25 AM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Kimo2007]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
Kimo

My High School--like many--had a wrestleing team, they competed in big meets with people comiing from all over the place, sometimes even from other states well before 93.
People have been going to college on wrestleing scholorships for 100 years plus.
Depending on what State you happen to be in, HS wrestling is nearly as big as Basketball.
HS wrestling even had its own movie--Vision Quest, back in the 80's.
So I would hardly call ground stuff "more prevelent."

A better term might be "more VISABLE."

So were kinda back to Oldman's orignal suggestion of social factors playing a major role in its larger visabilty.

Maybe the "surge" has just as much to do with more people sitting around watching TV than anything else.

Or it could equally be that Royce had a GREAT marketing idea--and don't kid yourself, that is precisely what it was.
Set up a tournament with the deck stacked as much in favor of the way he trained as possible.
NOT BAGGING ON HIM FOR IT--NOT IN THE SLIGHEST.
But he didn't glove up and try to fight professional boxers at THIER specialty either.
I have a lot of resepct for the Graices--and that they were shrewd marketers only makes me respect them MORE.

But lets face facts, if marketers can turn bottled water into a billion dollar business----the more so since depending on where you live your TAPWATER in probably just as good.
Its not much of step to convience people that "ground fighting" is where its at.

Not saying its not either----just trying to look at it from another angle for a bit.


Edited by cxt (06/21/07 12:28 AM)

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#347516 - 06/21/07 12:56 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: cxt]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Many interesting posts. I will say in the beginning everyone seemed to understand the question and were able to offer reasonable replys.

I don't think I ever implied the grappling went away entirely, in sport form is was quite vibriant. The point is when it came to what was perceived to be "real" fighting it was largely dismissed and not studied by fighters.

In terms of a time frame I'd say stick to the 20th century because somewhere in there is when, I believe this thought process began and became the conventional wisdom. This conventional wisdom was upended by the Gracie victories in the early UFC.

So I hope we know all understand the question and accept the premise so we can keep the thread on point.

I have more to say but have been slammed so I don't have time right now, but I will post more later to follow up on some great posts here, as well as cross swords with some of the more annoying ones as well.

Thanks
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#347517 - 06/21/07 01:14 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Kimo2007]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Where or when did I say it had gone anywhere? I did say that its different now and more popular and probably more effective then the way it wa sonce trained.

The point I was trying to make is striking is more entertaining and has a better professional support system.

Wrestling and Judo have big organizations but there was no way to make a living unless you were one of few to become a coach or Olympic coach and opened a dojo. Or the near embarrassing WWF.

Boxing have farms of students with Golden Gloves, Olympic Gold really means something in boxing, and becoming a contender cna make you money and a champion make you rich.

Thats the point that I was making, now MMA has changed that but I don't think it would be as popular without the ombination of striking and groundwork. Theres plenty of Judo and non striking MMA events but they are not as popular.

Having combatants hold each other on ground is strategic but its not entertaining and thats what fill seats, thats why the changed the rule to stand them back up.

I never said that ground fighting went anywhere, I merely tried to give an oppinon why it wasn't common and stressed in the past.

CTX they did stack the deck slightly but a 250-280lb man vs a 170lb trying to do serious damage to you isn't much of a stack, he had to be sharp to win. I wouldn't say he survived it unscrachted but he did win against odds that would crush the unskilled or unfamilar opponents.

Being prepared is more then 50% of the battle, they had 75yrs of research training.


Edited by Neko456 (06/21/07 01:23 PM)

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#347518 - 06/21/07 01:22 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Neko456]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Where or when did I say it had gone anywhere?.





I am unclear who you are responding too.
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#347519 - 06/21/07 01:25 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Kimo2007]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

"Ground-fighting didn't go anywhere- "

I think the point of the question is it did go somewhere, and now it has come back.

Do you deny that ground fighting is far more prevelent today then it was before 93?

I don't see how you can. Ground figting existed but as a percentage most MA's either didn't train in it or trained very little. Today virtually every MA either trains in it or agrees they need too.

So there has been a shift, grappling and ground figting has surged over the last 10 years.

I don't think changing the question is helpful or accurate.





I'm sorry I thought you were responding to my reply above yours, my bad.
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#347520 - 06/21/07 02:47 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Viator]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Viator wrote:
Quote:

If the Okinawans knew about the need for groundfighting and the need to counter groundfighting, and put answers into the kata, then why was it de-emphasized?




I think that is the core of the question at hand.

Quote:

I lay the blame specifically on the karate/TKD explosion after World War 2,




This is my hunch as well, I also think there was a de-emphasis on fighting which meant many concepts went untested outside the Dojo's.

Quote:

Among the non-initiated there is a feeling that ground fighting is easily countered




I think this was very true for a long time, this is the weakness the Gracies saw and exploited in the UFC matches.
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#347521 - 06/21/07 03:06 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

So there has been a shift, grappling and ground figting has surged over the last 10 years.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yes you are RIGHT. The wool has been lifted from the eyes of the populace. There is nowhere to hide from the realities of grappling. You are right.






So you agree with the basis of my question but continue on to argue "grappling never went away...etc"

In order for the wool to be lifted, it had to be there in the first place. How it got there is the theme of this thread.

Again, I hope this puts the semamtical issues to bed. This is a forum not a court of law, can we all agree to make the leap and understand the spirit of the question?
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#347522 - 06/21/07 03:17 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Kimo2007]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
Kimo

Again, just talking here.

But if folks fighting a couple of wars, some "police actions" in various nations, law enforcement, and decades of personal self-dfense and fights didn't see much of need for it---is it possible that perhaps the "need" for groundfighting might be overstated due to seeing it all over the TV??

I see the Ultimate fighter and I think "whoa, I NEED to work on my ground game."
But now that were talking about it---I can only think of a single time when anyone even tried to take the fight to the ground.
Even the guys that tried to mug me used a blitz attack with weapons rather than take the fight to the ground--and they were professional criminals--at least they had a long record for similer crimes.

There are of course a LOT of reasons why that may be--inlcuding THEY didn't have much of ground game at the time either.

You would think that if generation after generation--just here in the States--ended up needing groundfighting on a reguler-semi-regular basis then people would have cashed in on it much sooner--the focus on teaching might have been otherwise.

Again, I'm just talking here---all points are just for the purpose of discussion.


Edited by cxt (06/21/07 03:21 PM)
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#347523 - 06/21/07 03:23 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: cxt]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Maybe the "surge" has just as much to do with more people sitting around watching TV than anything else.





I think this may be true for the population as a whole, but I like to look at it from the view of people who were in MA before the UFC and how they reacted and changed.

My training partner in the 80's was a wrestler. As we trained he would often take me down when I was knocking him around (which was often the case).

But at first we would laugh and get up not even realizing what were doing. Lucky for us our instructor was a JJ guy was well and he stopped us one day and said "what would you do if that really happened?"

We ended up doing a lot of training based around not being taken down, and escapes from hold but not actual BJJ or judo.

After 93 is when I decided just to be on the safe side I better study BJJ so at least I know what they are up too.

But thats me.

I think the surge is related to the fact that most people who study MA genuinely want it to work, and when they saw what a BJJ guy could do to someone untrained in ground fighting they insisted on not letting that happen to them.

Quote:

Its not much of step to convience people that "ground fighting" is where its at.





And I think in alot of ways that has happened. I also think the result is the pendulum has swung to the other side where many people think grappling is more important then striking and they are ignoring striking or just learning the basics.

I read it all the time, a punch is a punch. I liked an analogy Oldman used in another thread, it's like learning to play guitar.

I can teach someone basic strikes in a matter of months and they will be decent strikers.

But to apply those strikes, hit your targets, not get hit in the process and do it in an active live full speed enviroment against a trained person, takes years and years to achive.

Like the guitar, you can learn basic cords and play a song if short period of time, but to master the instrument takes a lifetime.
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#347524 - 06/21/07 03:24 PM Re: Why did ground fighting fall to the way side? [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I lay the blame specifically on the karate/TKD explosion after World War 2,




This seems to coincide with my understanding of the 'seperation' of grappling and striking in martial arts as taught in the US. I'd say even up until the late 60's, grappling (ie; judo) was still routinely a part of many martial artist's syllabus. In that era, the "open tournament" was starting to really gain prominence as a way to showcase karate and kung-fu, thus reinforcing a "split" between the two disciplines.
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