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If you look at old Judo and Jujitsu, it most certainly existed. But mostly as a way to finish fight quickly, not a sport. So if you got someone to the ground, and were in a superior position, one strike choke, break etc. should of ended fight right away.

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No one expected for ground game to turn into a back-and-forth competitive aspect like it is now.

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HaterHater wrote

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I've only seen one fight (IRL) go to the ground and that was because both people were so unskilled they simply fell over each other.

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But what does that prove? Only that it happens. Isn't that reason enough to train the ground game?

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No, not for that reason. (BTW, are you implying that I'm so inept at fighting that I'm just going to trip over an unskilled oaf? I don't claim to be a great fighter, but I'm not a total clod, eh. ) I believe one should train for the ground game in case one encounters someone skilled at it. (Oh yeah, I have to admit I remembered a 2nd fight that went to the ground.)

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Now for all you who enjoy the ground-game, don't get offended. I'm not saying it's weak or pointless. I'm just saying it all depends on what you're training for. If you're training for self-defence, then the ground game just isn't as important

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I think your premise is flawed. If the ground game isn't important, then training for self-defense isn't important either. Using the same logic.

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First off, nice job mis-quoting me. I said "not as important"....never said it isn't important. Also, you apparently didn't follow my logic (I know I sure didn't follow yours in that last paragraph). I have had to defend myself...people I know have had to defend themselves. Thus, training for self defense makes sense. However, neither myself nor anyone I know has had to defend against skillful groundfighting (at least outside of training/the ring)...thus, while it is important, it's not as important for self defense. The equation is Less Common=Less Important.

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...grappling skills in general, however, are very useful.

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Ok, so now you're slicing and dicing. Explain the differences between "grappling skills in general" and ground fighting. To me they are one and the same.

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Fair enough. The ground game is one aspect of grappling...standing is the other. You may call it slicing and dicing, but from personal experience there's a big difference. I was going to use the example of the first time I sparred with a Judo guy. But here's a better one. We're hopping in the way-back machine and visiting the first time I encountered any sort of ground game....highschool...in P.E. class during the wrestling unit. I had to go against one of the guys on the wrestling team. Based on good footwork, rooting and sensitivity from what training I had back then, he couldn't throw me or take me down, but I could throw him. There's your stand-up grappling. Once we were re-started on the ground, he basically had his way with me. There's your ground-game. (That's also me me admitting that while I had decent stand-up skill, I right away realized those skills didn't transfer to the ground.)

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I don't know, haven't met nor even heard of anyone being attacked and clobbered by a trained ground-fighter. Doesn't mean it won't ever happen to anyone, just that it's not a common thing to have to worry about.

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Thats what makes people such an easy mark. It's hard to beat what you don't know and haven't seen. I bet all of the TMA guys in the first couple of UFCs felt exactly the same way.

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You seem to agree with me there. If you want to fight competitively, skills on the ground are a must. And, yes, to be fully rounded in self-defense, one needs ground skills. But I still haven't heard of anyone being taken down and owned on the ground outside of training or the ring. So, (just to be difficult for the way you laid into me) when this has happened to 1/2 as many people I know as those who've simply had to deal with the stand-up game, then I'll consider it 1/2 as important. Hope that's clear enough logic there.

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For those of you who advocate using ground-fighting for self-defence...cool. We all have our preferences and if it works, it works. But, it's not the only way.

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I think its more a question of having a complete game instead of going out at about 50% of capacity. Who in their right mind advocates being "half-assed"?

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Nice implication. I'll address the "half-assed" comment in the next post when I address the drawing of lines.

Josh

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.....Why did ground-fighting fall to the way-side?....I'm guessing 2 main reasons. First, for quite some time less people have been training for real fighting/self-defence skills, and more for fun and health.

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So how does THAT argument explain anything? What are you trying to say, that grapplers don't train for self-defense? Are you also saying that training for fun and health have no bearing on self-defense? Explain your premise.

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Wowzers!! Where the heck do you get the "grapplers don't train for self-defense" bit? I'm not referring to grapplers at all here! I'm talking about the so-called TMAs that do forms/katas and maybe some pre-arranged stuff but never spar...or the ones who spar only lightly and never really add resistance or work against people outside their school/style. That's what I mean by "for health and fun". Since that's all these folks were interested in, there was need for them to deal with the ground game. Is that ok with you?

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Second, those who have been training for self-defence were focused on that...since you didn't have a lot of highly skilled ground-fighters roaming the streets and kicking @ss, people interested in self-defence didn't worry about it too much. Only makes sense.

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That people were IGNORANT to ground fighting doesn't mean that not training for it makes any sense.

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Wow!! I figured with such a touchy subject that no matter how reasonably I spoke someone would get their undies in a bundle...didn't expect so much misunderstanding over a simple post though.

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Whose undies are in a bundle? I didn't think that mine were. I was just having a conversation. Do you say that everyone who disagrees with some of your points has their "undies in a bundle"?

Maybe if you would like less misunderstanding, it would help if you explain more clearly what it is you're trying to say? Don't know.

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Why do people fly off the handle and start making assumptions every time someone says anything other than "Ground fighting totally rocks."?JKogas (may I call you John?), you sure gave me a lot to respond to!

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I get the feeling that you're taking me as the typical TMA pansy with the typical anti-MMA bias. You clearly assumed all kinds of stuff I didn't say and don't believe. Let's see if we can clear that up.

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....are you implying that I'm so inept at fighting that I'm just going to trip over an unskilled oaf? I don't claim to be a great fighter, but I'm not a total clod, eh. ) I believe one should train for the ground game in case one encounters someone skilled at it. (Oh yeah, I have to admit I remembered a 2nd fight that went to the ground.)

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First off, nice job mis-quoting me. I said "not as important"....never said it isn't important.

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Nice job of splitting hairs

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Also, you apparently didn't follow my logic (I know I sure didn't follow yours in that last paragraph). I have had to defend myself...people I know have had to defend themselves. Thus, training for self defense makes sense. However, neither myself nor anyone I know has had to defend against skillful groundfighting (at least outside of training/the ring)...thus, while it is important, it's not as important for self defense. The equation is Less Common=Less Important.

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Fair enough. The ground game is one aspect of grappling...standing is the other. You may call it slicing and dicing, but from personal experience there's a big difference.

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... But I still haven't heard of anyone being taken down and owned on the ground outside of training or the ring.

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So, (just to be difficult for the way you laid into me) when this has happened to 1/2 as many people I know as those who've simply had to deal with the stand-up game, then I'll consider it 1/2 as important. Hope that's clear enough logic there.

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Nice implication. I'll address the "half-assed" comment in the next post when I address the drawing of lines.

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Wowzers!! Where the heck do you get the "grapplers don't train for self-defense" bit?

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I'm not referring to grapplers at all here! I'm talking about the so-called TMAs that do forms/katas and maybe some pre-arranged stuff but never spar...or the ones who spar only lightly and never really add resistance or work against people outside their school/style. That's what I mean by "for health and fun". Since that's all these folks were interested in, there was need for them to deal with the ground game. Is that ok with you?

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Absolutely ok with me But again, we talk here on this forum. That's kind of what it's for. Sometimes in effort to understand each other we have to ask questions. Don't be so sensitive and "read" things into what I'm saying that aren't really there.

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The first thing here is that the question was "why has ground fighting fallen to the wayside"....that's what I'm addressing...why. I'm not saying it's a good thing! But the fact of the matter is, that until the advent of the UFC, skilled ground fighting wasn't a common thing to encounter (yes, it existed, it just wasn't wide-spread). That being said, as far as actual smart training goes, I actually agree with you.

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Gotcha. I'm going to admit something man....depending on the day of the week, I'm slow sometimes Bear with the old man here as he navigates carefully through people's posts to make double sure he understands what is being said. I actually scored very high on reading comprehension...but thats neither here nor there. I just enjoy conversing primarily. I mean no disrespect.

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Oops, gotta bust out for a few...but I'll do one more post when I get back 'cause there're a few more of your points worth touching on (and I don't want to ignore any of your questions).

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I think it all depends on what you're trying to measure.

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Performance. The ability to perform against one's peers. That is truly all we can reasonably measure ourselves against.

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I dunno. I think I could measure my performance against an 80 year old grannie. (or grandpa! )

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If we're talking real life self-defense skills, then I'd have to say a better measuring stick is real life.

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Define "real life" please. How is MMA any less real? Explain your premise.

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It's not that MMA is less real....it's just not the same as self defense. That's the difference I was pointing out. Now, slow down and don't fly off the handle at that statement. It's true. And in no way does that imply that MMA training is inferior or inapplicable to self defense. On the contrary. MMA competition is well trained athletes with plenty of fighting experience against other well trained athletes. That takes far more skill than most people care about for self defense. I thought I made that clear enough when I said "If I can keep myself and my loved ones safe, then I've got the skills I need. Doesn't matter that a UFC level fighter could tear me apart."

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Using your line of reasoning, it's possible for things to happen - but it won't happen on the ground.

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Wrong-o there, buddy. That's not my line of reasoning. Wait a minute....I never said anything like that! My line of reasoning is that it's less likely to happen on the ground if you have good stand-up skills (again, I'm not talking competitive fighting against well trained individuals). So, for self-defense it makes sense to start with stand-up skills and then move to ground skills. My reasoning tells me that to be well rounded one needs to prepare for all ranges on both the X and Y axes. I don't advise "putting ones head in the sand", as you put it.

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Unless of course you believe that every situation you encounter will be under your control. I don't know of any reasonably intelligent person who believes that.

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Nor do I.

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I suppose some folks are just happy drawing lines and being biased because it means less work for them.

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Again, I'd agree with you...to an extent. Some folks don't want to work hard and some folks are afraid of the unfamiliar. However, there's another option. Before I get into it, I'd better preface it with a disclaimer to make sure you don't think I'm advocating "half-assedness". I personally believe in preparing for all ranges and both axes. However, I can understand why some people don't bother. Why? Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. Simple as that. I personally don't train knife defense. Maybe someday I'll decide to, but I doubt it. I can shoot a gun fairly well, but I don't train it, nor carry one. Nor do I carry a tazer or mace or anything like that. I don't train in improvising weapons...need I go on? I'm just not willing to put the time, effort or money into those things. (No doubt you also draw the line somewhere as far as self defense goes.) So I can understand why some people feel that way about the X axis, even if I don't agree with it. As long as people aren't lying to themselves about what they do and what they're prepared for, then it's all good by me.

Anyway, hope that clears it all up. Reading your response, I don't think you said anything I disagreed with (except those things you erroneously thought I believed). In fact, the only thing I think you might disagree with me about is whether or not ground fighting is as important as stand up for self defense. So please, if there's anything there you disagree with, do address it (I don't know how much off topic banter the mods here tolerate, so if you feel the need to start a new thread, just point me there). And if you happen to mention "ah, we agree about this or that" then all the better. Now to see if I have time to read the rest of this thread.

Best,
Josh

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Oh my. Oh dear. Josh, with all due respect, statements like this reflect an ignorance about "real life" fighting that borders on astonishing.

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MattJ....Weak, man. While JKogas may have misquoted me and decided I meant things other than what I wrote, he at least stated some clear views and opened a dialogue. Yours was exactly the sort of reactionary post that discouraged me from posting on this forum for so long. Saying "With all due respect" doesn't make you respectful when you follow it up with smug condescension. If you have any issues with what I wrote that haven't been covered in my response to JKogas, please feel free to phrase them in a civilized manner and I'll get back to you. Until then, all I can do is to quote the wise words of an animated Rastafarian accountant and say, "Take a rage dump, Mon!"

Later,
(H)Hater

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I think I could measure my performance against an 80 year old grannie. (or grandpa! )

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It's not that MMA is less real....it's just not the same as self defense. That's the difference I was pointing out. Now, slow down and don't fly off the handle at that statement. It's true. And in no way does that imply that MMA training is inferior or inapplicable to self defense. On the contrary. MMA competition is well trained athletes with plenty of fighting experience against other well trained athletes. That takes far more skill than most people care about for self defense. I thought I made that clear enough when I said "If I can keep myself and my loved ones safe, then I've got the skills I need. Doesn't matter that a UFC level fighter could tear me apart."

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Wrong-o there, buddy. That's not my line of reasoning. Wait a minute....I never said anything like that! My line of reasoning is that it's less likely to happen on the ground if you have good stand-up skills (again, I'm not talking competitive fighting against well trained individuals). So, for self-defense it makes sense to start with stand-up skills and then move to ground skills.

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My reasoning tells me that to be well rounded one needs to prepare for all ranges on both the X and Y axes. I don't advise "putting ones head in the sand", as you put it.

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Before I get into it, I'd better preface it with a disclaimer to make sure you don't think I'm advocating "half-assedness". I personally believe in preparing for all ranges and both axes. However, I can understand why some people don't bother. Why? Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. Simple as that.

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I personally don't train knife defense. Maybe someday I'll decide to, but I doubt it. I can shoot a gun fairly well, but I don't train it, nor carry one. Nor do I carry a tazer or mace or anything like that. I don't train in improvising weapons...need I go on? I'm just not willing to put the time, effort or money into those things. (No doubt you also draw the line somewhere as far as self defense goes.) So I can understand why some people feel that way about the X axis, even if I don't agree with it. As long as people aren't lying to themselves about what they do and what they're prepared for, then it's all good by me.

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Anyway, hope that clears it all up. Reading your response, I don't think you said anything I disagreed with (except those things you erroneously thought I believed).

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In fact, the only thing I think you might disagree with me about is whether or not ground fighting is as important as stand up for self defense. So please, if there's anything there you disagree with, do address it (I don't know how much off topic banter the mods here tolerate, so if you feel the need to start a new thread, just point me there). And if you happen to mention "ah, we agree about this or that" then all the better. Now to see if I have time to read the rest of this thread.

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