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#347036 - 06/15/07 08:26 AM MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 921
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom

I look forward to your views. This is my opinion, so I appologise for offending Any of my fellow MA's but please read on for my reasoning.

my question "Is there actually any Martial Arts Experts out there?" I ask this because of one thing really. Do we actually become Experts, I beg to differ are we not all Students of a Martial art, a way of combat. I see many News clips etc on various media and they use ....Martial Arts Expert defeats gang...." or "Martial Arts Expert gives Lecture of Self Defence..."

To be an Expert do you not have to be able to defeat ALL challengers and Know the smallest part of the Style you are an Expert in. May I use O Sensei Ueshiba as an example, I believe that before he passed away he expressed he was only just beginning to under the Do of Aikido the Do that he founded all those years before.

I have had many converations with other Martial Artists and they tent to have the same view as myself

"..I am a student of Karate, not an expert...."

A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.


#347037 - 06/15/07 08:53 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: Dobbersky]
Chatan1979 Offline

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
I tend to view the word "expert" in the same sense as Master. I dont believe in teh term Master or even saying someone has mastered something. To me the term master, or expert implies that you have nothing left to learn about whatever it is you are a "Master" or "expert" in. There is always something to learn and we should never stop learning. We can always be better so, in my opinion, we cannot be masters or experts.
Generally the term expert seems to be something that a non-martial artist my call you because to them you are an expert. But I wouldnt dare refer to myself as a master or an expert.
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

#347038 - 06/15/07 09:31 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: Chatan1979]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I once heard the word 'expert' defined thus:

an 'ex' is a 'has-been' a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure.
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

#347039 - 06/15/07 09:58 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: trevek]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Asking this question begs the question of can there be an expert in anything?

I would say yes. "Expert" is just a word which we use to qualify a person who is reasonably proficient in a field of study and practice. Experts are relied upon to continue the teaching, regulation and traditions of their craft.

Saying there's no such thing as an expert in a martial art means that there is no one who has any qualification to continue the art. So naturally, there are "experts" and "masters" of martial arts, otherwise martial arts would no longer exist today. Pretending that no one can be called an expert is just pretending that it's impossible to become proficient at a martial art, which is not true. You don't have to know everything to become an expert, you simply have to learn enough and internalise it so that it comes naturally to you and you can teach it effectively.

People put too much stock in the words "master" and "expert". The problem is that most people go beyond simple respect and come to revere these people as some kind of unquestionable deity. This is the wrong attitude. Even an expert can make mistakes and be beaten, no one is perfect.

Sure, it shows humility to say "I am not an expert" or "There can be no expert". Humility is an important part of martial arts and an important part of an MA student's development; but in reality there are some people who should be recognised for their achievements in martial arts and for their skill in practicing or teaching. Not calling these people experts is disrespectful and untrue. It's only when someone falsely calls themselves an "expert" that harm can be done.

Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/15/07 10:06 AM)
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

#347040 - 06/15/07 10:16 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: Leo_E_49]
groundfighter Offline

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
Not sure why this is even being posed as a question. By your definition, no one can be expert or mastered in anything as there is always something else to be learned, some skill unperfected. Why not just strike these words from our dictionary if they are so meaningless?
The dictionary defines Expert as possessing special skill or knowledge; trained by practice; skillful or skilled. Easy enough to achieve.
Master is defined as a person eminently skilled in something, as an occupation, art, or science. This again is easy enough, more rare than an expert but certainly there are eminant practitioners of any MA. The icons of the art.
Expert does not mean that you know everything there is to know, and master doesn't mean that you have skills that can't be improved. Don't read so much into these terms. Masters themselves recognise that they have things to learn and understandably direct attention away from such terms as they feel they imply that their training is over. Nonetheless they are experts, they are masters.

train how you fight, fight to live.

#347041 - 06/15/07 11:44 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: groundfighter]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
yes & no...

from my perspective "expert" indicates a degree of knowledge & skill beyond that of the average practitioner (so I agree w/ the use of the term)...

however, "master" carries the connotation of "mastery" - possession of all available knowledge & skill. Further, within the MA realm, the teacher who is referred to as "Master" carries the implication of omnipotence. MA instructors are already on a pedistal but a Master is, well, your master (don't you dare step out of line)

The lines between expert & proficient are fluid & not clearly defined and are distinctly different between arts/schools/styles. An expert in one art/school/style will be meerly proficient in another. There are no hard definitions. All I know is that I'm not an expert & definately NOT a master.


#347042 - 06/15/07 11:59 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: Dobbersky]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ken -

I take it you haven't seen my vids, yet.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#347043 - 06/16/07 05:29 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: MattJ]
MikeChaff Offline

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 175
Loc: England
I always think of expertise and mastery as being just things to always work towards. They're not something you can ever get. They're just benchmarks that mean you should try harder.

#347044 - 06/16/07 10:32 PM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: MikeChaff]
Hapkid0ist Offline

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 125
Loc: Hollyhood, Ca.
You can become an expert at what you do. This does not mean that you are undefeated in all fights in your life. Just that you have become an expert on your techniques and training. But any good art will continually evolve and you will become out dated just like a an old PC. If your art does continually evolve then you will not stay an expert for long. I myself do not care for the term or the term of master, that is unless you use it as it would best be applied. Expert in Basics / Master Instructor. In the long run they are just meaningless titles outside of our own worlds/organizations. The only title that is true and eternal is that of student. that is what I am. As my instructor says. You are not even considered a hapkido student until you attain 1st dan and know the basics. From there your training can truly begin.
D.W. McCullar, Hapkido
I.H.K.A./I.H.M.U.Ca. Chief Instructor, 5th Dan

#347045 - 06/18/07 01:34 AM Re: MARTIAL ARTS EXPERT's is there actually any [Re: Dobbersky]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think we make too big a deal of the title of Expert and then again Master. Other fields of studies have Experts in them its not a extra ordinary title its a field fo study that he knowns more then the average competent person in that field. These Expert can take this knowledge and write a book or give seminars and share their knowledge with other people interested in that study. He doesn't have to be undefeated to be an expert he just have to be war seasoned and survived weather he is a Mathmatiction, Business Programmer Analyst, OS developer, FireArm Instructor, Stick/Knife instructor, Auto Mechanic or Flight Pilot or whatever. If others fields of study can have EXPERTS why can't we.

As for Master it simple means a field of study above the Expert, its the level that the Expert hopes to one day attain it doesn't mean either can walk on water. It only is a level that few can attain unless they dedicate themselves the way the Experts and Master has all his life.

I believe that every MMA champion is an Expert in his field. I believe that every Black Belt point fighter thats has won numerous State or National Championship is an Expert. Or Champion Boxer is an Expert, Every wrestlers an Expert that has won a Olympic medal or a State Championship an Expert. How many can say that they have done that? And of these that have what did it really prove? That your method and training is above par and worked.
If he can show how his techniques work this is the difference in just excellent technicain and a Expert the expert can define his methodology. Maybe the ET would be an Expert also because what he does works time and time again. How many times he has lost shouldn't be a factor. Its just attaining a level of skill no matter if its numerous ping pong Championships, that few have.

We take words and try to make people live up to words or titles, when in reality Word define People. Albert Enstine was a Master of Physics he had his faults he wasn't perfect but he was ahead of his time, in his field.

I'm shocked that one would think that only a winner learns something, losing is a learning process also. Some fields believe that you haven't tested until you've been knocked down in a debate or fight.

Edited by Neko456 (06/18/07 01:38 AM)

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