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#346557 - 06/13/07 07:43 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Tashigae]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
1. There is no escape from the top of a lamp post. It's like backing yourself into a corner. Sure, maybe you can fend them off... until they start swinging baseball bats/pipes at you or get a friend who has a gun, then you're screwed. (Extreme scenario, I know; but if you're talking about an army of attackers, you've taken this discussion to that extreme) Plenty of other things which can be done, such as grabbing your feet and pulling you off (try it with a friend and a thick crash mat, I wonder what your chances of staying up there are), then you've got a long drop.

A big part of self defense is giving yourself options; finding ways through which you can escape to safety. Climbing yourself into a corner only closes off routes of escape. I question the rationale behind your lamp-post routine.

2. Try this, stand two to three feet apart from a chaser who is holding a marker pen. Run to and climb the nearest lamp-post in an attempt to escape. Every mark the chaser can make on your body is a deep cut, every cut to a major artery or organ area (including the kidneys and gut) is fatal. Congratulations if you make it up a lamp-post without being "cut" fatally.

3.
Quote:

They can outnumber you as much as they want, a whole army gathered at the foot of the post won’t make any difference (actually it would even make it funnier).




Self defense is no laughing matter.

4.
Quote:

A few years ago, my younger brother (23) and I had a habit of regularly going out in town at night to mess around, using the nightly, deserted parts of the city as our own little personal parkour terrain




You want to talk about self defense? How about starting by NOT hanging out in deserted parts of the city at night? Rule number 1: Prevention is better than cure.


I believe that Parkour is a valuable, if risky, tool for self defense if you are well trained by experienced runners and have a background in gymnastics. However, it's worthless without common sense. Nothing trumps awareness and avoidance when it comes to keeping yourself safe.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/13/07 07:51 AM)
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#346558 - 06/13/07 07:54 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: crablord]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

sorry for offending you



No problem Crab, I'm not easily offended and everything's cool. My reply was just intended as a reminder not to post potentially offensive words too hastily; this forum has many members touchier than mysef...

Quote:

but seriously. This is a joke.



It might very well be, I haven't thought it through long enough to decide (and have to little experience), which is why I posted it. Just an idea that came to mind when we realized 1). how swiftly you can climb a post once you've got the hang of it and 2). how incredibly SAFE you feel when you look at the street from the top of a decently high lamppost. I just thought I'd share the idea with some people more expert than myself in the self-defense field, and see what they think. I guess I should try some more realistic scenarii to put it to the test next time I have the chance to see my brother (not anytime soon unfortunately - I'm posting from Beijing), to see at which distances between the post and the original situation that type of escape is applicable (if there's any), then try to throw things at him while he's making a call with his cellphone and see if he can dodge it easily enough, etc. Many lampposts are as high as a standard 3rd floor. From below, unless you have a gun, there's not that much you can do against someone at such height... And if you're in a city, the cops should arrive rather quickly once you've made the call.
Well I don't know, just cogitating aloud (if I may say so).

By the way, I love this oxymoron of yours . I'm definitely going to steal it!
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#346559 - 06/13/07 08:43 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Tashigae]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Y'know, I scratched my head about this one initially. Then I got to thinking about it and things became clearer.
In fact, one of the prime predators-survivors in North America will initially run for all it's worth if it's attacked by overwhelming odds. But, if it can't get away, the final resort will be to climb as high as it can and hope for the best. I'm referrring to the "treed" cougar/mountain lion. So there's at least one apex predator that instinctively strategizes as you suggest. Considering it's success in nature, it's at least fair to consider what you propose with an open mind.
That said, though, unless you have the cougar's or your brother's natural ability, it's probably of limited utility to most of us. But personally I'll keep it in mind, in case a surprise scenario ever happens in which my usual preocedures wouldn't work. I confess I'd never thought of climbing as a way out of trouble!
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#346560 - 06/13/07 08:43 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Tashigae]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
hehe.

Its an ok idea I guess, but think about it, if you slip your screwed, if you cant get up in time your screwed, your screwed anyway if your a normal person because you aren't a monkey, and if they throw things at you your screwed.

Running is a better option
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#346561 - 06/13/07 10:57 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

Sure, maybe you can fend them off... until they start swinging baseball bats/pipes at you



If they're able to climb up a perfectly smooth 30 feet lamppost while carrying a basball bat/pipe, they're damn fit gymnasts and I have no chance to escape from such a person to reach the post in the first place.

Quote:

or get a friend who has a gun, then you're screwed.



Agreed (as stated in my previous posts).

Quote:

Plenty of other things which can be done, such as grabbing your feet and pulling you off (try it with a friend and a thick crash mat, I wonder what your chances of staying up there are), then you've got a long drop.



I actually have put this part to the test rather extensively, and with the kind most lampposts I've tried to climb belong to, the odds to successfully pull off someone who's secured the top, for someone who isn't there yet, are zero or close enough. I used to often do some "vertical sparring", which is what I call an exercise in which both sparring partners are holding onto a climbing wall and try to make each other fall whithout falling themselves. In almost all cases, the victory went to the one who could secure the spot providing the best grip. It's almost impossible to fend off the wall someone with a decent grip, if yourself only have poor grips to hold onto.

Once a good climber has reached the top of a lamppost, he's as good as glued to it, while anywhere below offers nothing to hold onto. And it's just too easy for him to fend off any other monkey-wannabe who'd be foolish enough to attempt to climb after him.

Quote:

A big part of self defense is giving yourself options; finding ways through which you can escape to safety. Climbing yourself into a corner only closes off routes of escape. I question the rationale behind your lamp-post routine.



I agree to that principle. Keep in mind I don't even claim my idea to be a good idea (I honestly don't know), because I don't think I would count on it myself at the current state of my training level. It's just that, an idea. Which is here to be examined. And to answer your question, the rationale behind it is to get as quickly as possible to a relatively safe place from where to dial 911/999/18/etc...

Quote:

Try this, stand two to three feet apart from a chaser who is holding a marker pen. Run to and climb the nearest lamp-post in an attempt to escape. Every mark the chaser can make on your body is a deep cut, every cut to a major artery or organ area (including the kidneys and gut) is fatal. Congratulations if you make it up a lamp-post without being "cut" fatally.



I've tried this exercise occasionally (although not with the lamppost idea in mind), and I know it's not easy. However, I know at least two guys, fitter and better trained than myself, whom I'm pretty sure I couldn't "cut" before they get there. I definitely agree that this trick can't be pulled off by your average guy, not even your average FIT guy. Ability to do it comes with training, and my question is precisely "is this little trick worth training for?".

Quote:

Self defense is no laughing matter.



If your meaning is that self-defense is a serious matter, I naturally agree. If you mean that its seriousness grants it some kind of sacred nature putting it beyond the mere right to talk about it in a humourous manner, I disagree. I never totally discard the possibility of humour no matter what the subject is, and such a position can sometimes make you see solutions that you almost certainly wouldn't have found otherwise.
Sorry but I just chuckled at the thought of a band of thugs gathered at the foot of a lamppost, wondering what to do while their intended victim would call the police and smile at them; and I still see nothing wrong with that.

Quote:

You want to talk about self defense? How about starting by NOT hanging out in deserted parts of the city at night? Rule number 1: Prevention is better than cure.

I believe that Parkour is a valuable, if risky, tool for self defense if you are well trained by experienced runners and have a background in gymnastics. However, it's worthless without common sense. Nothing trumps awareness and avoidance when it comes to keeping yourself safe.



Thanks for the advice, but you needn't worry for me: I know the city I live in well enough, and I know where to hang out and where not to hang out.

Awareness is indeed the number one tool of successful self-defense, and we don't lack it when we go for one of our little training session.

As for avoidance, I probably agree but it depends how far you stretch the meaning of this word.
I'm not rich and my home-sweet-home's surface is approximately 12 m2 (that's right). I hardly have room enough to do pushups, so training techniques - let alone forms - is out of the question. I have no solution but to use the nightly, deserted sports terrains (or any other part of town fit for the exercise at hand) as my training ground. If by "avoidance" you mean I shouldn't do that lest I might make an umpleasant encounter, I disagree. I definitely refuse to alter the course of my agenda out of fear of what MIGHT happen. Now if by avoidance you simply mean that SHOULD such umpleasant encounter arise (which happened) I shouldn't look for trouble and just try to ignore any provocation as much as possible (which I did), I agree.

Just staying home all day with all doors locked would probably be the summum of "avoidance". I'm not too tempted. For me, avoidance simply means that when my path takes me in a situation which has the potential to turn into a dangerous one, I should try to prevent it from doing so, as opposed to let it degenerate and then face - or flee - a danger that should never have been allowed to exist in the first place.
Since I'm not too sure of what your meaning was, you tell me if we're in disagreement or not .

Anyway, thanks for the constructive comment. Your post is exactly the kind of contribution I was hoping for when I threw in that little idea. Keep'em coming everyone!
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#346562 - 06/13/07 11:15 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Tashigae]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think you've got a good grasp of what avoidance means. If you see something coming which could mean trouble, get out of there if you can. It also means taking necessary precautions to minimise the risk of danger, for example, taking a longer route through a safer part of town to avoid the risk of a more dangerous part of town. It doesn't mean paranoia or boxing yourself in your house for eternity. Sensible precautions, an understanding of body language and effective communication skills, a keen eye for dangerous situations developing, etc are all important for awareness and avoidance.

Skill in avoidance is like experience driving a car. With more experience driving, you learn to look ahead and see a situation developing, rather than having to deal with danger as it arrives. This kind of foresight can save your life. I spend time reading on subjects such as NLP, body language and psychology (you can probably find books about these in your local library) and I also spend time working on my people skills, such as monitoring my own body language from time to time and just getting out and being friendly and talking to people.

As to your explainations, don't underestimate human creativity. I'm sure that if your attackers want to harm you and they can still see you, they'll find a way to do it. This was my actual point. The moment you climb up that lamp post, you put control of the situation into their hands. You put your faith in their stupidity and ineptitude, rather than taking control of the situation yourself. What happens if they aren't stupid or inept and come up with a way to attack you or pull you down? Then you're in trouble. I personally would rather take control of the situation myself and make them follow my rules of engagement, then I can put them at a disadvantage, however small.

I like to think of self defense as a kind of poker game (a very serious, dangerous poker game) in which you can cheat without the other players knowing. You can stack the cards in your favour, but everyone else gets a chance to do the same. What matters is that you've got better chances in your hand than they do. Attackers tend to have control of a situation from the outset, they choose the time and place they'll attack and they're familiar with their surroundings. They'll probably have friends or weapons. If they didn't think they'd win, they wouldn't risk attacking you. You can also stack the cards in your favour by training effectively, being aware and prepared to defend yourself, understanding the concept of body language and confrontational behaviour and being fit enough to escape.

This is why running is a good tactic for self defense. You can reduce their advantage by taking them away from their "home ground" and put them in unexpected territory where they do not have control. You might run into a police car or a group of pedestrians or down to an area where they can easily lose sight of you. Another important realisation is that if an attacker can't see you, they can't harm you. This is true no matter what weapon they are carrying. Lose them and you're much safer.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/13/07 11:35 AM)
_________________________
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#346563 - 06/13/07 01:31 PM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Tashigae]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I guess we could try sqeezing our head through fencing also as a method of defense, now thats cool as sh%^ almost like they disappeared. You got the 1st part right running but really climbing up a light pole works for animals attackers but not for man.

Thats how man has killed stronger and faster large cats and Bears for eons, its called treeing the prey or predator if its a man killer. End result is a capture or dead animal.

But what makes the Fox or Coyote known to be wise is that it runs and out distance it chaser, sometimes when it tries to be too cute it hinds and gets caught.

Anyway I use think of myself as a streetfighter running was one of my best tactics and still is (along woith being one of the best exercise) anytime you feel this is a bad situation RUN!! And teach your woman how to run (a Sinbad joke).

I question if a cougar that can easily kill a man in one swat isn't safe treed, what would make you. A nice scenario but no thanks, I think you got it half right be a Fox or a coyote, a cats good they run like lighting until they start thinking and get treed.

Rules of survival KISS. IMHO.


Edited by Neko456 (06/13/07 01:43 PM)
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#346564 - 06/14/07 02:42 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: ThomsonsPier]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Besides, if I'm fit enough to monkey up a lamppost, I'm probably fit enough to run away.




You forgot that Tashigae (and presumably his brother) is French and they tend to do things in style. Just FYI, lamp posts in France are made of cast iron and roughly painted and so easier to monkey up.

In any case I think dogs (French or otherwise) have better use for lamp posts than humans, or at least some of the humans.
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#346565 - 06/14/07 05:48 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:

In any case I think dogs (French or otherwise) have better use for lamp posts than humans, or at least some of the humans.




Ah, yes. I forgot to take account of the hygiene implications of this self defence method.

I don't know, maybe it would be useful as a last resort.
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#346566 - 06/14/07 08:46 AM Re: "Cat-style" self-defense? [Re: Tashigae]
groundfighter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
Quote:

(for info, mine is in linguistic science). And although he has little martial training, he isn’t without experience since he has been through a self-defense situation where he successfully performed a gun-disarm – something he never learnt – before putting his attacker to the ground.



Linguistic science? I must not have a complete understanding of what linguistic science is. I was under the impression that you could not begin a sentence with the word "and," that a dash was not a puncutation, and that "learnt" was (at last check) NOT a word (re:learned.) Not to mention the fact that I had no idea you could say "he never learnt" as opposed to "he hadn't learned."
I want to thank that "linguisitic scientist" For clearing this misunderstanding up for me.
J
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