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#345928 - 06/07/07 12:15 PM Chin na...recommended reading?
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hi. I study karate, and have NO knowledge of systems of joint manipulation. Currently, would like to learn a bit about 'chin na'. Any recommended readings, videos, teachers, etc?

Thanks for any pointers.

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#345929 - 06/07/07 12:26 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#345930 - 06/07/07 01:06 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thanks, Oldman.

Question: when it comes to comparing systems of joint manipulation...is 'chin na' considered part of Tai Chi...or is called something else? Right now, my interest is in learning about the joint manipulation used in karate...and where it come from.

Thanks, again.

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#345931 - 06/07/07 02:11 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
hi Harlan,

I have a little expeirience on this as it is an interest of my own, get yourself Dr Yangs Jwing Mings Analysis Of Chin-na book and dvd.

Book here - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Analysis-Shaolin...9828&sr=1-9


you will also have far more luck finding an instructor of YMAA than anything else.

Its superbly presented info and very good.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#345932 - 06/07/07 02:19 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Just my luck...broke, with a dying car transmission...and it would seem that Dr Yang Jwing Ming will be teaching a seminar right in my area. Pooh.

http://www.ymaa.com/seminars/boston/shaolin-taiji-qin-na

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#345933 - 06/07/07 03:41 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: harlan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Harlan,

Chin-na is a generic term in the Chinese martial arts for grappling. Almost all Chinese Arts contain Chin-na.

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming has written quite a bit developing a systematic approach to understand and study what he presents from White Crane and Eagle Claw locking techniques. He also has a video collection that goes from showing the locks (in detail) to how to use them against various types of attacks. He also shows how Chin-na can be found in Tai Chi.

Northern Eagle Claw is one of the source systems (historical view) of Chin Na. It contains a very wide selection of locks, locking techniques in it's Northern Style forms, and large two person sets using the locks, as well as a unique sparring approach incorporating locking.

Chin Na can be found everywhere. Northern Mantis is essentially a chin-na striking/locking system, using most of the same techniques as Eagle Claw (just a different locking hand). BaGuq uses Chin Na... There have been numerous books on these arts showing their techniques too.

As the Chinese arts have a pleothera of Chin-na, it is logical to conclude that some of those influences were developed in the Okinawan arts.

The representations I've seen of 'Ti' actually look more like Chin-na.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#345934 - 06/07/07 05:59 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
much of the Ryukyu Ti I to have seen is remarkably similair to chin-na techniques as well Victor.

The secret is out now.....................
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#345935 - 06/07/07 10:12 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
don't know about 'Ryukyu Ti' or 'Chin na' or many other things going by various names. I do know enough to realize that someone could go to a few widely accessable JJ, Chin na, BJJ seminars and learn a few principles, then go back to their traditional Art of choice and teach it under the name of 'Ryukyu Ti' and 'Tegumi'.

The naming seems more marketing than historical or technical accuracy...but hey, if it works, who cares what it's called I suppose.

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#345936 - 06/07/07 10:33 PM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

Well you've provided a focused topic for the next time we get together. We'll play with some chin-na (I love the finger ones, my wife used to butcher me with them after her classes with Dr. Yang for 9 months).

As Dr. Yang market's it (in his books, seminars and video's) he's taken his engineering background and structured the various chinese locking studies he practices around specific focuses, instead of the older approach of teaching at whim.

So he's present the entire range of finger locks, wrist locks, elbow locks, etc. at one level. Then he'll present them against a variety of attacks, such as all the ways to lock a punch.

His presenations make for a logical adjunct art, that fits alongside many others.

Eagle Claw's structure is very different. Dozens of very long complex forms to teach the locking patterns. Many very long two person sets to teach how to set up the locks against a wide range of attacks. Thenl EC sparring with no techniques disallowed and each round requiring a different lock to be made before it's over. (This is not a short course but decades of study).

There are some parallels to karate training, and much material that works but is not openly there.

BTW, while we play with it once and a while, just to break things up, there is enough material in our Isshinryu studies to keep us busy forever.


Edited by Victor Smith (06/07/07 10:34 PM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#345937 - 06/08/07 02:50 AM Re: Chin na...recommended reading? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
didnt mean to offend Ed, I know your a sensative bunny on such things

I use the term simply as it allows me to focus on searching out what I consider (not necessarily historical fact, to hard to prove without a time machine), what is 'Ti' and what is not, the evidence we are finding shows 'Ti' has a distinct flavour of its own (mainly from the bugeikan and Motobu Undon ti).

Its research supports our little quest into training karate, a component of that is a historical search, into the RyuKyu period.

Of course it is no more special than anyone working any other art, from any time, but it is different from 95% of the karate I have seen over the last 21 years, hence the terms.

but when push comes to shove, I just train karate.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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