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#345552 - 06/06/07 09:39 AM Aikido: Effective Application
Viator Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
I'd like to say first that I'm not trying to flame. Some recent discussion with Aikidonut and mild arguing with Oldman has made me consider looking into aikido or at least broadening my knowledge of it.

Looking on youtube reminded me of an old drill I'd seen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreuuPm24UI, where two Aikidoka were attempting to work against striking. I'd like to know the forums opinion on the drill. Personally I have reservations stemming from the quality of the "boxer," but I like the direction that the drill points in.

Second, how many people in the forum spar regularly and at what level of intensity? Do you exclusively work against aikido techniques or is there an attempt to involve other styles? Note that when I say involve other styles, I mean spar against them, not drill against them ala http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc92c9p2nhw&mode=related&search=

Lastly, how many have cross trained in other styles and how do you consider them to mesh with aikido?

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#345553 - 06/06/07 11:40 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
Spar?

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#345554 - 06/06/07 11:55 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: iaibear]
Viator Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
Spar, attempt to simulate fighting and technique application in a free form and randomized environment. Different from a demo in that neither party has prior knowledge of exactly which techniques will be used by the other. Full randori, to use judo's sense of the word. Aikido is often defended as a purely defensive art, but surely one partner would be willing to take an attackers role in sparring for the sake of learning, as in the boxing video above.


Edited by Viator (06/06/07 11:57 AM)

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#345555 - 06/06/07 01:11 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
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I liked that first drill as well. As for the quality of the boxer, it was alot better than the over commited attacks that seem so common place in the TMA world in general.

I've known many Aikidokas who have had a friend put on boxing gloves and used tai sabaki to evade. You just have to pass through the begining stages first (against those commited punches). It's the same with knife work, at some point it needs to get a bit more realistic. I think you wouldn't have trouble finding a partner interested in these kinds of drills, assuming you'd spent enough time on the mat learning your basics.

--Chris
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#345556 - 06/06/07 02:58 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
MattJ Online   happy
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Quote:

Looking on youtube reminded me of an old drill I'd seen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreuuPm24UI, where two Aikidoka were attempting to work against striking. I'd like to know the forums opinion on the drill. Personally I have reservations stemming from the quality of the "boxer," but I like the direction that the drill points in.




Very interesting! Good find, viator. I haven't seen that before.
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#345557 - 06/06/07 03:47 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
Viator Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
you might enjoy the rush drill then too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

I found them lurking bullshido a while back. The boxing clip was divided between those who thought it was a good step and would develop better and those that thought that unless they got a better boxer it was delusional and possibly dangerous.
I came down in the former camp, with reservations. They could use some lessons from Pernell Whitaker ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G5v_PNsl4Q ) on how to dodge a punch.

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#345558 - 06/06/07 03:53 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
MattJ Online   happy
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Quote:

you might enjoy the rush drill then too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ




I like this one, too. I would fall into the first (Bullshido) camp, as well. May not be perfect, but at least they are trying.
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#345559 - 06/06/07 09:14 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I liked the techniques against kicks, and I found a randori clip on one of the other links, but what's missing in most of those is intent. It's clear that nobody was attempting to do much to anybody with either the attacks or the techniques, and while I don't mind a little mindless movement practice, training should reflect a seriousness of purpose. You don't have to knock somebody out to punch with intent, or cause a concussion with your shomenuchi, but it should reflect some element of risk to both parties if you're to develop technique in either the attack or the defense.

A good attack will make you move differently than one that's half-a$$ed that wouldn't hurt if it hit you. I spent almost a whole class with one of our students tonight on that very thing, and he understands now the difference.

"Get out of the way, or I'm going to hit you" has a different meaning than "I'm going to strike at your head"... and if the intent is clear, then you will reflect it in your effort to defend and evade.

Where people make a big mistake in "fighting from grips" in jujutsu, is that they don't do anything but hold on, so there isn't anything to the technique to disarm it. If the guy is grabbing your wrist and trying to punch you in the face, your focus changes... as does his when you apply a solid technique rather than "walking him through it".

There's a real difference between "learning a technique" and "learning a fighting technique"... and it's focused on the intent of your application. If it's to slam the guy into the floor, use an uke with good ukemi skills rather than "walking somebody through it" to practice. If your students need ukemi skills, then throw them at a level they can keep up with, and keep increasing the "heat" on it until they have good skills... but don't cheat the technique to turn the burner down on the technqiue being applied. Simply do the technique in a more controlled manner and let off at the end to match their falling skills.

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#345560 - 06/06/07 10:49 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
Viator Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 172
The kicking video is the one I like the least because although the techniques look cool practically none of them would actually work. The one around :19 in particular makes my wrist hurt just thinking about it.

Everytihng else you said essential summed up the reservations I had about the drill. No real follow through, no full extension, because the boxer isn't good enough to know how to pull his punches and still move quickly.

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#345561 - 06/07/07 01:18 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Howdy! found yuz guys again!

yeah, watched the rush drill,.. i agree, found myself wanting to try it, only one thing, which i left a comment on,... those black belt/hakama wearing guys should be dropped down a coupla levels, maybe 3d kyu ( blue belt ) in my dojo..... sorry to be so direct, but that the truth

btw, in my place, you will be tested with ukes using strength, like the rush drill, only they won't knock u down,... if u dont do technique right, the black belts ( shodan and up ) are so well centered, that nothing will push 'em over..and tey'll be standing over you after you have lost balance trying to throw them.if u do the technque right, they have no choice but to fall , and if you do it right and hard, they have no choice but to breakfall out of it....but you will not be tested like that so openly on the mat to the point of being pinned, because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...something that is easy to say , hard to really learn and put into practice....

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#345562 - 06/07/07 01:28 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
MattJ Online   happy
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Quote by akidonut -

Quote:

but you will not be tested like that so openly on the mat to the point of being pinned, because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...




Wow. Totally disagree with that philosophy. Ego should NEVER be a consideration.
_________________________
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#345563 - 06/07/07 05:42 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I agree with you, Matt. That's wrong on so many different levels I can't begin...

"Loss of face"??? It's a matter of taking a technique to it's conclusion, and if you have "lead", it's going to end up with you on your face. If the black belts are that centered, it means your technique sucks or you're losing the lead at some point.

Rain falls, and whatever it hits on the way down is a matter of inconvenience or redirection to it. Aikido and jujutsu is the same.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345564 - 06/07/07 07:04 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
jpoor Offline
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Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
If your defense never fails because of some artificial rule, you will never know what works and doesn't.

If your attack never ends up with you in a pin/neutralized position, you will never know what works and what doesn't either. So what's the point?

You shouldn't be worried about saving face in the training hall because otherwise you might not be able to save your face (or your life) on the street.

Oh, crap! That last sentence sounded way to fortune cookie for me
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#345565 - 06/07/07 11:46 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Quote by akidonut -

Quote:

but you will not be tested like that so openly on the mat to the point of being pinned, because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...




Wow. Totally disagree with that philosophy. Ego should NEVER be a consideration.




firstly, that is not a "philosophy": Descartes, Immanuel Kant, Plato, Hegel, now THAT's philosophy. This was a sentence, a phrase...

therefore, let me rephrase, as it might not have come out as you all seem to have interpreted....

i saw the video where these aikido ?? black belts ( hakama wearers ) are being pinned to the mat, unplanned. my comment was wow, yes i'd like to try that too.to test myself, but if i get allow myself to get pinned to the mat like those black belts like that ( they tried no technique, nothing except they're trying to run away,,... one guy tried an irimi unsuccessfully) i would give up the black belt.i would become a white belt again. and i wouldnt care, if i'm back to square one. I'm not in aikido to get some sort of degree. the only outward show of my accomplishment is ... nothing..

Now i dont see how that translates into this whole ego thing you seem to be picking on. my words were taken out of context, which is why i dont think this "quote" feature is entirely fair, it's like political opponents using sound bites to make their rivals look foolish. read or quote my entire post.

where i practice,my dojo, we adjust the level of technique on the mat to the lower rank. what's wrong with that? i wouldnt pin him to the floor, if i see i already have the advantage, i stop...that way the uke will still like to practice with me...( unless sensei actually called for us to use a pinning technique). and the more the uke/lower rank practices with me, the better i get.... it's a reciprocal thing. so i see a benefit in not pinning him...also we dont pin unless sensei calls for us to pin. actually i'm talking about what they did in that video , which wasnt anything as elegant as "pinnning" it was more like," pull you down to the mat"

i can see that in that video , it was a more uncontrolled situation, and a lot of attackers kept on coming.and bringing the black belt to the mat...my point, perhaps not well phrased enough for the members of this forum, is that there is no need for all that. that is not aikido. i'm surprised they actually put it up on the 'net...they're not afraid of reprimands from USAF or hombu dojo? O'sensei clearly didnt want competition. in my dojo, we can compete a little, you grab me hard, i'll grab you hard too when it's my turn, I'll do a good tough nikyo that'll test your acromioclavicular joint if you just did a tough one on me...a good kotegaeshi, to return your technique,..that 's good honest MA practice, for both nage and uke. but if it causes tempers to flare , I know how to tone it down. maybe" loss of face" is not the best phrase, if i get an advantage in the technique, and i pin uke (when he wasn't expecting it) or use kaeshi waza to reverse nage's technique, and then nage gets thrown by surprise, especially if it wasnt called for by sensei, it would cause loss of face,disruption of the class and sensei's authority,

admit it , please dont gimme that internet zen about martial arts and no ego.i know enough about it,.i've read zen and the art or archery, motorcycle maintenance, hakagure , mumonkan,.. all i'm saying is that call it what you will .loss of face, embarrassment, pride, i will not make u feel uncomfortable with me on the mat.you can translate that , then into: "i will not make you feel embarrassed, "lose face" because i want you to keep coming back to practice with me, i want you to voluntarily pick me as your partner.. but i will also not allow you to get away with bad technique... that's the balance i try to strike with my uke while on the mat...and that's the conundrum of honest MA practice : when to back off , when to insist...when to teach, when to learn...

dont forget , aikido comes from Japan, a country that is obsessed with loss of face.... look at the intricate bowing etiquette they use.. and why do you bow onto the mat? show respect to O'sensei, sensei the dojo... if ya don't what happens? loss of face...the dojo loses face, you lose face .... so I don't "totally disagree" with that.

anyway, let's try to also write that way. with the intent of
keeping the poster or the reader engaged,and not pushed away. don't forget , writing on an internet forum is not the same as a face to face non digital converstaion between people...

peace. let's keep up the dialog.


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#345566 - 06/08/07 10:44 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
MattJ Online   happy
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Then we will agree to disagree. My point is that if you are interested in furthering the application skill of your martial art - whatever it may be - then considerations of 'face' or 'ego' will only hinder you.

Instructors need to know that they are not unbeatable. Students need to know what it is like to have someone really resist them. Everything else just gets in the way.
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#345567 - 06/08/07 12:50 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
crablord Offline
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Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
I always emphasize this.

If your not training with resistance, your not training.
you might as well watch a dvd
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#345568 - 06/08/07 02:24 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
the 2 guys were just wrestling. they looked tough and all, but that most certainly was NOT aikido. if the boxer wears gloves that cuts down on a lot aikido techniques, ie, cant do nikyo sankyo kotegaeshi,...also when they went down, they were allowed to come right back up... again not aikido as a pin / lock ( nikyo finish) should have been achieved b4 letting uke go free. please, dont think that's aikido! aikido is a lot more than that, so it's a misrepresentation to say that's aikido.

i do agree with having to do some sort of resistance tarining, and what they're doing is interesting, and good if these guys are navy seals about to go to iraq or something, .. the benefit is limited to training for real situations, but there's a lot more to it than that in our aikido dojo...

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#345569 - 06/12/07 05:50 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Aikidonut, this is in the interest of dialog, please don't take this as a personal attack. But I think that yours is an interesting and well established viewpoint in most of the Aikido community and I'd like to share mine.

Quote:

i can see that in that video , it was a more uncontrolled situation, and a lot of attackers kept on coming.and bringing the black belt to the mat...my point, perhaps not well phrased enough for the members of this forum, is that there is no need for all that. that is not aikido.




I'm not sure why you feel this isn't Aikido. In any martial art there is a 'need for all that'. I think Aikido is thought of so negativly by other martial artist's because there isn't enough of this kind of training.

Quote:

i'm surprised they actually put it up on the 'net...they're not afraid of reprimands from USAF or hombu dojo?




Well, that's an interesting point. And I guess practioners of Aikido are going to have to decide what they want out of their training. Do they want to continue in this overly aesthetic dance, which is currently called Aikido? Or do they want to actually learn how to use it in a real situation? I'm actually working on research now for a paper on how some forms of Aikido are begining to share more in common with a folk dance than with martial arts. Many folk dances have martial qualities to them, but are most certainly not martial arts. I fear Aikido is also going this route.

I'm not even sure what the USAF or Hombu would say about these drills (that's what they are after all, drills)? Certainly this is not any more competitive than other Aikido randori. The only diffirence is that the people rushing in are actually trying to take the person down! They aren't trying to 'pin them' they are rushing in and grabing them and trying to pull them down to the ground.

What I think would have made these videos better is if they continued on the ground using the newaza (kneeling) techniques. It's amazing how these can actually work in situations like the ones depicted (no, not against Royce Gracie).

It mystifies me everytime I hear 'the newaza techniques are there to build your legs'. There are better ways to build you legs. Or they are there so you can focus on your upper body. Or they come from Daito Ryu, when this was a palace art, and attacks had to be stoped while on your knees. All of these may be true. But they are also a valuable technique to used when being pulled onto the ground, and work quite often. I successfully used they against those trained in BJJ and Judo. They don't always work, but they give you an option. What's sad is that the use of these techniques is becoming lost due to the unrealistic training occuring at so many dojos.

If the USAF or Hombu take issue with drills such as this, I would have to question why? I'd like to take issue with the hombu for a moment if I may. How can someone be ranked first, second, third, or eigth dan without ever having to repel an actual attack using Aiki?

Quote:

O'sensei clearly didnt want competition.




I think this concept has been blown out of proportion since his death. I certainly agree that he did not want Aikido to become some kind of spectator sport. However, look at the footage of him, especially as a younger man. Those people are trying to take him down. Sumo wrestlers, Judoka, Kendoists, all challenged him and he accepted. Is this not competing? How many Aikidoka would reply to these type of challenges, rather than falling back on the tired excuse of 'there is no competion in Aikido'? Very few. And that's probably one of the main reasons why no one will reach his level.

I think Ueshiba-Sensei was speaking more in terms of mindset: that when one encounters physical violence, either mock or real, there shouldn't be any thought of winning or losing.

Quote:

"i will not make you feel embarrassed, "lose face" because i want you to keep coming back to practice with me, i want you to voluntarily pick me as your partner..




Why would someone be embarrased if dropped to the mat, or if a good punch connects? Why would they lose face? Isn't it better for this to happen in the controled environment of the dojo than on the street?

Aiki only functions because of mindset, beacause of intent. If you can't take a somewhat realistic attack in training and not be embarrased, how will it be on the street when you get sucker punched? Will you be like so many others and allow your training to fly out the window? My thoughts? That's exactly what will happen, unless you get used to real attacks with resistance.

Quote:

the 2 guys were just wrestling. they looked tough and all, but that most certainly was NOT aikido.




YES, it was Aikido. It was Aikido against resistance. As they improve, if will begin to look more and more like the waza. First they have to lose thier fear. Fear makes you react with muscle rather than movement.

If I had to put my money on who would be more likely to use their Aiki on the street, these guys or a 9th dan who has never been challenged? My money is on these guys.

Just as getting caught up in randori too early can lead to negative results, so can being overly concerned with aesthetics in your mid-career training. At some point you need to let your body become free to react and let what you've learned come out of you naturally, against unexpected, realistic, resistive attacks.

Quote:

i saw the video where these aikido ?? black belts ( hakama wearers ) are being pinned to the mat, unplanned. my comment was wow, yes i'd like to try that too.to test myself, but if i get allow myself to get pinned to the mat like those black belts like that ( they tried no technique, nothing except they're trying to run away,,... one guy tried an irimi unsuccessfully) i would give up the black belt.i would become a white belt again.




This is actually what made me write this reply. This is exactly the wrong mindset. The way you make it sound, all your training is useless if you get taken to the mat. I have bad news for you: it's going to happen! It doesn't mean you don't 'deserve the black belt'. It means you still have something to learn. You're judgeing these people without actually trying this yourself. Have two people, preferably people your size, with no martial arts training, stand 6 feet from you and rush you. Tell them to take you down. Let them keep trying. See how it goes.

After that, you can continue with people more experianced. Keep working, keep improving.

To be honest, I hope that all Aikidokas do drills like this. Especially black belts. And when they are taken down, I hope it reminds them that a belt is just a piece of fabric, and we should all be white belts at heart: we should always be trying to learn. Always going into terrain that makes us uncomfortable, scares us a little. And learning how to deal with it, little by little, until we are comfortable there. That's when we'll BEGIN to express true harmony with our opponent. That's my understanding of Budo. I may be wrong.

My two cents.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (06/12/07 06:02 PM)
_________________________
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--Basho

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#345570 - 06/12/07 09:56 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Ames]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I hate to take this tact on the discussion, but you guys talk all day without saying anything. First of all, I don't think anybody can read what was in O'sensei's mind, and he took challenges all the time. If you think surrendering your belt if you get pinned is an acknowledgement of something, try my tact... don't ever take any rank in Aikido. Then, you can learn and don't worry about whether or not you touch the mats. As far as I know, everybody gets thrown in Aikido, and if you are taken down in randori, it's just part of the drill. Every high ranking player I've ever trained with has hit the mats right along with the rest of us unless they were injured.

As for "becoming in harmony with my opponent", I only want to be in harmony with him long enough to splatter him all over the mats. If we're training, it's with restraint... if its for self defense, he's on his own.

I've been training in Aikido since 1984, and have done hard training a lot of times... repeated hours of koshi waza, shihonage, etc. and literally left my being on the mats... so it's not a disgrace to be there... it's a learning experience. If you're thrown and have high rank, it's a high-level learning experience.

I don't really care what organizations think of what I do... they're there to organize and garner power and money from something I do for love of the art. If they're truly "guarding the art", they'll understand that all they have to do to find out my motives behind something is to ask.

The "superhero" suit comes after you become invincible, and in 45 years of training, I haven't met that guy yet. Training is training... whatever level you take it to is between you and whoever you train with and their ability. You can't do godan training with white belts, and you can't teach nanadan techniques to green belts and expect them to do it well.

There's an awful lot of "defining" of what Aikido actually is done here, and it's whatever you can make of it using the techniques and principles of Aikido. It's individual with every person training in it, and their ability to transfer it to others is a measure of their teaching ability... not necessarily their skills.

Anything that organizations have to offer is full of politics, personal challenges to power, attempts to "rule" others, and "submissive" recognition of ability... so measuring your art by what some organization says, is always asking if what you're doing is okay with somebody else. Whatever happened to being your own man? You don't have to challenge authority to live under it, and you don't have to fall over dead when somebody that outranks you says to... Train to learn... teach to share... live to improve the world around you. Do that, and your Aikido will take care of itself.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345571 - 06/12/07 11:47 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Ames]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Chris, thanks for the well thought out post. I plan to re read it and reply to your finer points later. just as a preliminary,

firstly, of course , i would not take this as a personal attack, if it's well worded, as yours is, and certainly you have your right to your opinion and to voice it. if you didnt , there wouldnt be any dialog.

that being said, i feel i must reply.
I am a great fan of "testing ' my skills on the mat. I actually have, with some of my friends : I was once showing my childhood buddy the mat i had constructed ( i was proud of it, had a sailmaker sew the canvas, used double density foam, etc) in the basement, when he lunged at me all of a sudden. He caught me off balance, we went to the ground. but before i hit the mat, i stayed on my knees, and grabbed his shirt lapels, and proceeded to throw him, doing a kokyu nage. he was heavy , 200 lbs,and didnt move at first, but then my throw was pretty strong, so I wound up ripping his shirt, and bringing him down to the mat. I felt i was about to be in full control of the situation, when he called it off. we both went upstairs , sheepishly, because his beautiful Ralph Lauren polo shirt was completely in shreds. Our wives ( now she's my ex-wife) looked at us, and reacted in disgust. "You boys cant play in the sandbox , huh? blah blah blah..so i stopped trying to test my art on friends.
I admit, it was fun in retrospect. so yes, this aikidoka has tested himself. I was also involved in a street confrontation, which i have described before, so I won't bore you with the details, except to say , i threw that guy with irimi nage, and he turned and ran away. after he hit the pavement. hard.

since those two incidents, i havent tested it, but would love to again. but i love the art, and am happy just diong what i do.

now with respect to those guys who were trying to bring the aikido guy down onto the mat ... this was still not a real situation, because, the aikido guy let them grab him..... in my real life street fight, i didnt wait for that to happen.... i went right at the guy with all i had. i also gave him a sidekick that explored the inner reaches of his pancreas. ... so i feel it is a delusion to think that is realistic practice... it is not... it was a friendly wrestling match....you cannot translate that into a real world situation. and you cant say that it's closer to a real world situation than what we do in aikido... is pizza with pepperoni more delicious than spaghetti? is Mozart more melodious than beethoven? is judo better than aikido?

is it better to physicall resist and challenge someone, or just to do aikido and learn graciously from sensei, without triying to smear someone all over the mat??
see my point ? you can only say it's a real life situation if it IS a real life situation... someone on the street wants to kill you or hurt you badly....and THAT will never hapen in any dojo, whether it's BJJ, aikido, jujitsu , TKD or folk dancing... they all have some relation to a streetfight, but none are the complete picture.... it's all or none...like quantum mechanics...a 400 foot fly ball out ( aplogies to non baseball enthusiasts)is the same as a 390 fly ball out.... they both were not homeruns.

that having been said, i still would like to test my skills in a resistance, but non street fighting situation. it shows another facet of the art. but i will not think that by doing resistance will i be closer to having proficiency in a streetfight, than doing my li'l ol' aikido dojo stuff.

i've said it b4, i do not train all those hours on the mat to save myself from that one godawful moment when i have to realy use it on the steret. that would take all the fun out of it.... let's see, I'm doing ikkyo from a wrist grab so that i can do it on my heretofore unseen attacker...i cant think like that all the time on the mat! isnt it boring, isn't it like living you r life in perpetual fear of that one possible attacker in the future??


Mark.

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#345572 - 06/13/07 09:08 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I've refrained from jumping in earlier but self-restraint has got the better of me.

I'm totally in agreement with what wristtwister said... especially w.r.t. "Training is training... whatever level you take it to is between you and whoever you train with and their ability."

I only have this to add.

The only true reality check is to go "play" with other martial artists. The rest of it means nothing, only your understanding and ability to apply the principles (of any art) - in any context (combative or otherwise) - that really matters.

For starters, try working your way out of a pin (like juji gatame) - without having something broken. Then try to remain standing as your opponent does his best to take you to the ground - even if it means hanging off you literally.

Or pick on someone bigger, heavier and stronger than you and see whether you can throw them effortlessly or how much you are "muscling" the technique. If you can't "float" them, then go back to "basics".

Everything is technique rooted in principles, right down to the subtlest aspects of where their weight is. If you don't understand this, or even how to transfer your own weight as a means to throw, then go back to basics.

Like wristtwister said, and I agree, the best thing that can happen to YOUR Aikido is to leave the artificial constructs of belt ranks and organizational structure behind and walk your own path. Storm a few dojos... that's when the TRUE learning begins.

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#345573 - 06/14/07 01:24 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

I've refrained from jumping in earlier but self-restraint has got the better of me.




you mean YOU got the better of self restraint,( having finally succumbed to amaking a post ) right?or perhaps you meant your need to jump in got the better of YOU ... that's fine, the more the merrier!

I dont understand what the fuss is all about.... what you and wristwister have said, are essentially the same as what i have already posted... i dont care about belts !!I am not a "black belt" but i've been with the dojo for 12 years. I show up to learn. i would be the first person to not care about belts. I already can put 9 letters after my name, on my letter head, i certainly dont need it to also say "2d dan".... I've already posted this...

I also would love to work out with a judoka, as you are implying, I have "stormed" dojos...when i was just a beginner, a shodan did hard technique on me , and i learned, and i purposely sought him out during class... i am always thinking>> how would this work if i did it harder? but one thing you all dont seem to understand>> doing it hard is no better than doing it "soft"...it's just different.

have you seen my videos? www.youtube.com/dojomania please clip and paste it in the browser window...and,by the way, MY aikido is just fine, thanks anyway. How's YOUR aikido?
all the best

Mark

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#345574 - 06/14/07 02:13 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Despite your adamant protestations, everything about your post indicates that, in the back of your mind, you have some sort of hang up or chip on your shoulder about belt rank, ego, loss of face etc. etc. etc.

Length of time in an art - any art - is certainly no indication of skill or abilities. So your 12 years on the mat or my X years in MA in general means very little until we touch hands.

Quote:

when i was just a beginner, a shodan did hard technique on me , and i learned, and i purposely sought him out during class... i am always thinking>> how would this work if i did it harder? but one thing you all dont seem to understand>> doing it hard is no better than doing it "soft"...it's just different.


Well, no, hard and soft are 2 aspects of the same thing. But there is a distinct difference between being floppy and using muscle and it has nothing to do with your idea of hard or soft. i.e. it's not a dichotomy. Ever heard the phrase "cotton wrapped in steel"?

Quote:

have you seen my videos? ...and,by the way, MY aikido is just fine, thanks anyway. How's YOUR aikido?


I have seen your videos... I'll politely say no comment. As for my aikido... I wouldn't know... maybe you can come find out and tell me... over a beer or two (or a carton).

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#345575 - 06/14/07 04:32 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I dont understand, how you can say i have a " chip" , by reading my post and concluding it's from the back of my mind... I'd have to say sometimes I don't know what's in the back of my mind!

As for my video, you can read the thread i have on it,"a video of my dojo" , and also comments from current moderators, interpersed throughout..also please see the comment on my videos in the Martial arts talk forum, comments from a moderator...you'll be the first non positive comment, but that's OK, ..Certainly if you have any constructive criticisms, that don't come from anger and dislike, I'd be happy to review it.

let's just agree to disagree, and leave it alone.


I hope for all the best to you in your MA practice.

Mark

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#345576 - 06/14/07 06:51 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Call it intuition....

I haven't made any comment (or am I going to) because I frankly have nothing nice to say about it. No amount of peer back-slapping or chest thumping is going to change anything, least of all your ability to apply your understanding of aiki in a different context.

IIRC, the video was mostly of other people and not you, so I can't honestly make any fair comment. In any case, the subject of your video in this thread is somewhat off-topic.

In terms of effective application there's only 2 variables to consider - you and the other person....

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#345577 - 06/14/07 10:18 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Aikidonut, where are you located?

I watched some of your video posting, and most of what I saw was a "polite" Aikido school... nobody really going hard. I'll reserve judgement on whether or not there are skills there, because all I saw was "polite practice"... kihon step throughs, and no threat.

Nobody doing henke-waza or much real blending... because nobody was moving fast enough to blend or change techniques.
I'm not being critical, just observant. Post some of the randori, and it will tell more of the story.

My partner and I are always telling students "you're being too polite" during practice, and I'm afraid I'd have that tape running all the time at your place. You simply haven't put up enough information to show what they've got.

Get your black belts to do some randori and post that so we can see... we promise not to tell any of their secrets...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345578 - 06/15/07 12:34 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I'm in NY, long island, wristtwister. you 're right, i understand your comments. i'll find some more randori... actually i have a video of sensei doing randori, and me throwing a sandan, it's on www.brightcove.com/aikidonut
I understand you're not being critical, and your comments are entirely welcome ..that's why i put up the video. to get honest remarks,because sincerely constructive comments are great, they open up my practice and understanding. I might have contributed to the slowness, by showing many of the techniques in slow motion, please look at the randori on the brightcove website, and let me know. I've had my shoulder dislocated, once doing a breakfall for sensei, out of a kokyu throw. one nidan who started out with sensei , and migrated to yamada, and donovan waite ( was uchi deshi for donovan) said that although yamada and waite are superb , in his words, " Eddie ( Hagihara) just walks right through you. " but these are only words, and you'd get the real feel, ( obviously, i don't have to tell you) if you come on over. www.LIAIKIKAI.com Or come over the non- digital way, SC ain't so far away. BTW are you close to myrtle beach? absolutely beautiful there..

are you aikikai, yoshinkan,tomiki, ASU,or ki society? .
Yamada and Hagihara were the among the first two sensei ( plural ?) who established the new york aikikai back in 1960s. Hagihara ( our sensei, the one in the video) had the green tea ceremony with O'sensei, in 1969, just before Ueshiba passed away. Ueshiba's words to him were "bring my aikido to the world." He was also tohei sensei's primary uke, before the split ,after O'sensei's passing.

sometimes i think i shouldn't have put up the video, it has created some misunderstandings. You may be right we might have been too "polite" to each other , but i feel that the scenes of Hagihara throwing Adam were definitely NOT polite.If you fall wrong from that throw, that's a broken neck, or at the very least a forearm in the face.. When I had started to video them, sensei was unavailable, so I only showed the immediate crew, Adam, who is 3d dan, and rich, who is shodani only have a little footage of sensei as he was in the hospital at the time.i was anxious to try out my newfound video interest. but please, i'm repeating , have a look at the randori. and i will put up more current randori. I'm making a video, that will have Shihan Hagihara's full blessing , so this new video will really be his expression of his concept of aikido, and I'd love to hear your thoughts after that one comes out. I plan to film him within the next few weeks, so that video might be available to you soon.

oh, and BTW, do you have any video of your dojo? I'd also like to compare.

be well,

Mark

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#345579 - 06/15/07 01:10 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I've seen the brightcove vids once before... but I'd thought I'd watch them again to be sure what my first impressions were the first time.

The video effects tend to down play the technical points - meaning it was difficult to discern the finer, subtle points of people's movement, particularly your sensei Hagihara (which I feel is vitally important if you want to be really good at MA).

From what I saw of you from 0:59-1:05, too much in the shoulders and not enough from the ground and center. i.e. too much upper body muscling involved. I would relax the shoulders, remain grounded and redirect uke's forces and movement from center.

Watch how Hagihara does it... he is relaxed in the upper body, and when he lifts his arm, it is being lifted by his center. The hakama hides what his feet and knees are doing, but I would be guessing he's got them planted when he stops and draws power from the ground). The other difference is that the intent is different... he uses his hand like a sword. Everyone else's intent is different... kinda like trying to put "hard" intent into the movement, but not quite the same as cutting with intent to "open" uke. Big difference here.

WRT the "standard" techniques, I saw nothing out of the ordinary which stood out. But then, I'm not looking at "technique" as such. I'm looking at really basic things like footwork, posture, connection, glimpses of internal states which tell me far more about how "good" someone is, rather than how "good" their "technique" looks.

(You wanted constructive criticism, you got it).

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#345580 - 06/15/07 05:26 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I'd like to say first that I'm not trying to flame. Some recent discussion with Aikidonut and mild arguing with Oldman has made me consider looking into aikido or at least broadening my knowledge of it.




Hi
I reached the same conclusion.


Quote:


Looking on youtube reminded me of an old drill I'd seen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreuuPm24UI, where two Aikidoka were attempting to work against striking. I'd like to know the forums opinion on the drill. Personally I have reservations stemming from the quality of the "boxer," but I like the direction that the drill points in.




The drill to me looks ok. The people taking part I think would need an expereinced instructor to oversee what they are doing or video the drill then be very critical.
I think both these guys were open to getting hit,headbutted,
kicked and missed chances etc.How would they know they were open? And keep making the same mistakes other than being told or after wards watching the video and being very critical or get some one with more experience to watch and be critical.
Please before I start a flame I take part in this kind of training. I am my own biggest critic with my gaurd being to low or doing or not doing things I should be doing and I am still studying.


Quote:


Second, how many people in the forum spar regularly and at what level of intensity? Do you exclusively work against aikido techniques or is there an attempt to involve other styles? Note that when I say involve other styles, I mean spar against them, not drill against them ala http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc92c9p2nhw&mode=related&search=




I do it as regular as I can.For me to try out new techniques I prefer the low skilled would like to have a go types. The problem is judo guys want to spar as they do in judo. Boxers ditto. The thai boxers I train with are in the main ok with it. Problem is it can some times get out of hand. But to me it can give a big reality check.
The last video of the karate ka and aikido guy I dont buy it. Its to much like acting.Seems like a marketing gimmick.


Quote:


Lastly, how many have cross trained in other styles and how do you consider them to mesh with aikido?




From what I know of aikido(which isnt anyway near as much as some people on this thread know) I think I need to study more aikido/aiki jujitsu/daito ryu and a lot more.
But as has been said there is only one life time.


Edited by jude33 (06/15/07 05:42 AM)

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#345581 - 06/15/07 06:05 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Howdy! because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...something that is easy to say , hard to really learn and put into practice....




Hi
A bruised ego should make a person train harder. If I had a bruised ego then it would have been so so bruised that the only colours left were that of bruising.
Why a bruised ego that bad then a person would lose face?
Its training your doing isnt it? I get knocked about everytime I sparr so do my training partners. Its the reason why they invented gumshields and gloves in boxing to stop major injuries. Mufflers they were called to stop the gentry getting bruised. The working class got injured more than likely because they couldnt afford them in the begginings but that is another story.

Either way getting beat in training shouldnt be a big deal.
Unless its the kind of enviroment that makes some one known as a soft target. In which case maybe a person should train
a distance from where they live.
Just another thing I would like to add. Your lucky to have such good training facilities and good people to train you.
If I were where you are I think I would be taking advantage of the training available.
Just my thoughts

Jude



Edited by jude33 (06/15/07 06:10 AM)

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#345582 - 06/15/07 02:02 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: jude33]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Hey , Jude ( I always wanted to say that)

thanks for your post, i would train there everyday to if it wasnt for my job and family.. more later.. I love muay thai , I think its fast, and really forces the person to stay in good shape, real good shape.

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#345583 - 06/15/07 07:43 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hey , Jude ( I always wanted to say that)

thanks for your post, i would train there everyday to if it wasnt for my job and family.. more later.. I love muay thai , I think its fast, and really forces the person to stay in good shape, real good shape.




So we can slowly forget about the bruised ego bit and just
train huh?

Look forward to hearing about your progress particuler with the break fall practice. Forward break falls are hard to do huh? I hate them. Been reading about the founder of aikido in a book they published with photos of his techniques. Heavy reading.

Jude
Stay in touch bro
Jude

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#345584 - 06/15/07 10:48 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: jude33]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Jude,

yeah! hey thanks man.
I finally think I know why everyone got so upset about the bruised ego.. ( I've been raked over the coals so many times on that i got 3d degree burns)....

when I said "bruised ego, I meant that i did not want to cause my uke/partner to have even a reason to have a bruised ego, i was not referring to myselfj, I try not to have an ego to begin with, and I've been knocked around in dojos quite a bit , kicked in the abdomen, dislocated my arm twice, got thrown into the floor by a nidan , then he wouldn't let me do the same to him..but i did not walk away from that, just stuck with it, and now we get along fine. he showed me how to throw someone with kotegaeshi into the mat,that's all...

I think there's a thread on this forum, "throw me hard, but respect me"..I say, throw me hard, and I'll throw ya hard right back. No umbrage taken. We both shall learn from any amount of resistance, hardness, etc...

so really , if there's anything i shouldn't be accused of is having an ego. I've just been through a divorce, and lemme tell you, that leaves you with no ego ( and almost no money, but there's freedom) please, i've been through enough to be accused of having an ego. forget about it, as you said, let's move on...

i know wristtwister said not to be polite, in my practice, but I don't want to be impolite either...I am my own i deal with that, the ukes deal with it. that's to be natural. I only said to avoid a" bruised ego" because i want everybody to stay in aikido who comes to the dojo. I dunno , it's not worth discussing my comments to that degree.

about the forward breakfalls, I've gotten so used to 'em I prefer to do them now. breakfall out of shihonage is tougher than out of kotegaeshi, and in my dojo, it's more of a milestone than getting your yellow belt. now , a backward breakfall, like the one out of tenkan irimi nage, that you see Adam doing is even harder, because, if it's done with speed, you gotta kick out in front and voluntarily fall backwards , in the air. we had one class where we did 100 breakafalls, that was painful! but it got rid of any fear of falling! Sensei calls those clsses "flying lessons"!

can you breakfall out of shiho nage, or do the "kickout" tenkan irimi nage? maybe I'll show that on another video, how I breakfall out of shihonage. and you can all tell me what you think

so, Jude, may the road always rise up to greet you in your travels.

Be well

Mark

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#345585 - 06/16/07 02:39 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
(Edited by Ames)


Edited by Ames (06/16/07 02:23 PM)

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#345586 - 06/16/07 06:47 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
(Edited by Ames)


Edited by Ames (06/16/07 02:19 PM)

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#345587 - 06/16/07 09:38 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Quote:

The other high ranking aikidoka in my video is Adam Pilipshen, 3d Dan, who receieved his fukushdoin/menkyo kaiden ( teaching license ), and was Sensei Hagihara's uchi deshi for a good number of years.




Mark,

Are you sure about the "menkyo kaiden"? I think what you mean is fuku-shidoin menkyo, or "assistant instructors license", which is about 3rd-dan in the Aikikai shogo structure. The term "kaiden" literally means complete transmission of an art.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#345588 - 06/16/07 10:55 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: A.J. Bryant]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
My apologies for the error, that was the one word i didnt check.



gotta run ,

Mark


(Edited by Ames, to keep this thread on topic.)


Edited by Ames (06/16/07 02:15 PM)

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#345589 - 06/16/07 02:08 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Guys this thread is drifting WAY too far off topic. The question that started this was: 'Are these drills good for Aikido?'

This thread is about 1)What is effective Aikido? 2) What training methods help to nurture this? 3) What methods ditract?

Anymore personal attacks, or thread drift in general and I'll have to lock it.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#345590 - 06/16/07 05:40 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Ames]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
My apologies, Chris, for this thread getting off topic,so, as was suggested I started a new thread, " my school's aikido lineage"...everyone please visit it if you can and let's continue the discussion!

mark

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#345591 - 06/16/07 10:34 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

i know wristtwister said not to be polite, in my practice, but I don't want to be impolite either...I am my own i deal with that, the ukes deal with it. that's to be natural.




What I said was that we are always telling students "you're being too polite"... What that means is that your uke doesn't have to extend himself at all to keep up with the technique, and you're being laid down as gently as a baby.

If you remember in the movie "Enter the Dragon", there was a moment when Bruce Lee was telling the student "emotional content, not anger"... this is pretty much the same thing. Train with intensity and purpose or don't train...

I'm always polite in class to everyone, but that doesn't mean I won't plant you like a tomato stake in the mats doing a technique... it's two entirely different things. If I'm "laying you down", it's because I don't think you have the ukemi skill to take the technique... pretty insulting, if you ask me. If you throw me hard, it has to be one of two scenarios... you're mad, or you think I have the skills to protect myself when thrown.

What most Aikido players lose sight of, is that there is a difference in ego and a "high level of skill". You can't have an ego doing technqiue, for blending is "combining" with your attacker. If your ego is too small, you cheat the technique... if it's too large, you slam your partner unmercifully... if there's no ego, you blend, and combine with him to flow through the technique to it's conclusion.

Being too polite has nothing to do with conduct... it has to do with "emotional content" in the technique. If it's missing, then the techniques will suck pond water.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345592 - 06/17/07 03:09 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Ames]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:



This thread is about 1)What is effective Aikido? 2) What training methods help to nurture this? 3) What methods ditract?

--Chris




thank you , Chris, for that encapsulation. Much needed !

What is effective aikido?

All aikido techniques are "effective aikido", if done properly. The "armbar" of ikkyo, for instance, if all movements are done with precision, timing, strength, power, is supremely effective in pinning your uke, immobilizing uke, and is the prelude to a successful disarming. In learning and perfomring this technique, nage feels the strength, power, and control of motion, and in doing so, comes closer to a self realization, that all these tools are his to work with, and that training is the means to obtaining it.

Thus the effectiveness is not only in overcoming the attacker, but also in a person realizing that he/she can do so.

In "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence", the protagonist takes apart his motorcycle and reassembles it everyday . He uses this repetitive, time consuming physical process not just to ensure the bike's successful operation, but more importantly, to train his body, his mind. To touch each and every bolt and screw, to register and categorize it in his brain. In doing so, he extracts happiness . His brain is gratified, the physical act of contact triggers the proprioceptive pathways of his nervous system, causing a generalized release of endorphins and dopamine to stimulate the neural circuitry pertaining to satiety, and happiness.

I believe that similar to the mind of anybody when doing their particular interest, or hobby, in Aikido one and one's brain is gratified by the pure physical act, which then translates into >> ( music swells ) effective application! An artist just loves the feel of the brush in his/her hands.The gratification is inexplicable , but present.

Similarly,Aikidoka have more than the general population's neurologic craving for the physical act of manipulating a body in 3 dimensional space. There is a type of physical intelligence that has been thought to exist, one that is separate from the cognitive intelligence of Einstein, or the social intelligence of Gandhi. It is that of Michael Jordan, Fred Astaire, or A-Rod ( did I say that ? arrgh!) and of course, O'Sensei had that type of intelligence in spades.

Effective aikido is driven by the mind, the brain. Output ( do the technique ) then input ( see and feel the technique ).

Thus, ikkyo is effective. How to nurture it, later.

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#345593 - 06/17/07 10:56 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Thus the effectiveness is not only in overcoming the attacker, but also in a person realizing that he/she can do so.





That is the most childish approach to martial arts that I've ever heard. No one learns Aikido with the "hope that their technique works", only with the caveat that it works as taught.

All of the techniques of Aikido work well as applied to the specific teaching methods... the reason you train is to be able to execute them and blend with the attackers in their execution. If you need a list, Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Irimi, kokyu... any throw off that list of principles.

It doesn't have anything to do with "zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance" or any of the other esoteric approaches to life... it has to do with "doing" using those principles... not "kumbayah, kumbayah, kumbayah".

The process is simple...
Learn the steps involved (attack and response)
Practice the steps involved (until you have the timing and movement)
Henke waza (change from other techniques to "this one")
Practice, practice, practice...

Okay, the secret's out... Aikido's no longer magic, so you can get off the kumbayah train.

This thread appears to have been started with you knowing what you wanted everybody to say, and nobody with any knowledge is going to say it because your premise is wrong. Effective Aikido is Aikido that works physically. It isn't magic, it isn't zen (as prescribed by the motorcycle maintenance routine)... it's knowledge, feel, and practice... just like any other martial art.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345594 - 06/17/07 11:36 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
what is your aikido school/affiliation ?

if you have any video of yourself doing aikdido, why don't you post it, like i did? Talk is cheap.

Mark

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#345595 - 06/17/07 07:39 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark, I don't know what Hagihara teaches or if he is even teaching anything... Most Japanese don't... they simply smile politely and say polite things, like "good" (meaning "you stink"), "keep practising" (meaning "hopefully one day you'll figure it out")...

From what I've seen, no one on your vids moves like Hagihara - they're all doing something different. Rank and years on the mat aside, there is a distinct difference between how some of your people move and how Hagihara moves. The question is what is that difference? I have already explained in my earlier post. The answer lies in what you see Hagihara doing and what you are not doing.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Zen or motorcycle maintenance. Zip. Nada. There's only Unconscious Incompetence (where most people are generally at) and Unconscious Competence (where most people will never get to).

The first step in getting to where you want to get to is not in repetitive unconscious practice of the same rubbish. Practice does not make perfect. Only by practising perfectly (correctly) can perfection be attained. You need to be conscious of your current level of incompetence before you can start progressing to Conscious Competence.

No Japanese is going to tell you that... they're far too polite.

So you can continue to practice ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokkyo, irimi nage, shihonage, tenchinage, kokyunage, koshinage, aiki otoshi, and hundreds of other techiques for years on end in the same unconscious (i.e. what you believe Zen to be) manner, or you can start all over again from the beginning (i.e. "basic" principles) and CONSCIOUSLY perceive what exactly Hagihara is showing AND not showing you, and consciously practice it.

Otherwise, all you're doing is the external shell of aikido, which may possibly be effective... right up until you meet someone better.

As an example.... learning how to break down a weapon and re-assembling it (vis a vis motorcycle maintenance?) with your eyes closed is not going to make you a better marksman.

What makes you a better marksman is breath control, holding the weapon with soft hands extended by a relaxed but connected structure that is firmly supported by the ground (or other structural support), visualization and intent to connect with the target, and gently squeezing the trigger. The trick is learning how to remember to keep doing all that while under fire.

Does that all sound strangely familiar like some martial art we know?

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#345596 - 06/18/07 12:05 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I will accept that Hagihara doesn't teach everything. But then, all competent teachers will measure what they think their students are capable of, and challenge them just enough to have them progress, yet not repulse them with too much. That is the attitude of a teacher.

So, it's not because he's Japanese that he's withholding something. To say that :

Quote:

Mark, I don't know what Hagihara teaches or if he is even teaching anything... Most Japanese don't... they simply smile politely and say polite things, like "good" (meaning "you stink"), "keep practising" (meaning "hopefully one day you'll figure it out")..




borders on overgeneralization of the habits of an ethinc or national group , something that easily leads into bigotry,war , hatred.. let's keep the military industrial complex in business!

Have you read Zen and the Art of MM recently ? please re read my remarks specifically about the proprioceptive pathways , ( if you want a better definition, I can PM you, and further explain )how they relate becoming one with your weapon, your attacker,extending, and how an artist relates to his/her brush, how a swordmaster relates, becomes his sword.

I wouldn't dismiss zen so fast, many swordmasters were zen adept. The Unconscious state is samadhi,from whence effective application commences.

let's keep this thread on course: effective application:

I ask you to do the same as wristtwister, post a video of what you 're talking about. I'd like to see if you make visual sense.

Mark

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#345597 - 06/18/07 02:57 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I will accept that Hagihara doesn't teach everything. But then, all competent teachers will measure what they think their students are capable of, and challenge them just enough to have them progress, yet not repulse them with too much. That is the attitude of a teacher.

So, it's not because he's Japanese that he's withholding something. To say that :
Quote:

Mark, I don't know what Hagihara teaches or if he is even teaching anything... Most Japanese don't... they simply smile politely and say polite things, like "good" (meaning "you stink"), "keep practising" (meaning "hopefully one day you'll figure it out")..


borders on overgeneralization of the habits of an ethinc or national group , something that easily leads into bigotry,war , hatred..


A bit of a stretch.... but I'll play... he's withholding stuff because people do... everybody does... whether they're Chinese, Okinawan, or Japanese. Even Sokaku Takeda didn't show/teach Ueshiba everything. (Can't find the AJ quote, but it's there). Yet, Ueshiba worked out most of it. Hagihara isn't showing you stuff, because he's Japanese and you're not. That's only part of it. Even amongst the Japanese, not all get shown the real goods. That's just the way it is.

But it's a vicious circle. If they don't show/teach you, you won't work it out (unless you're extremely gifted). And if you work it out, they won't need to show you.

Quote:

Have you read Zen and the Art of MM recently ? please re read my remarks specifically about the proprioceptive pathways , ( if you want a better definition, I can PM you, and further explain )how they relate becoming one with your weapon, your attacker,extending, and how an artist relates to his/her brush, how a swordmaster relates, becomes his sword.


I've thumbed through it at the bookstore once, many many years ago... didn't see anything in it that I thought was outstanding enough to add to my already burgeoning library of Zen material.... it wasn't something I'd put along side the likes of ChuangTsu or D.T. Suzuki.

And what do you really know about "proprioceptive pathways"? I can tell you that training your proprioceptive pathways requires great conscious and physical effort. If it were as simple as practising physical movement forms repetitiously, then anyone practising such repetitious forms-based martial arts would be great martial artists, the likes of Ueshiba and other truly great martial artists. Sadly, I don't think this is the case. Taiji is a really good example of how "forms-based" training does not equate to martial effectiveness. Look at the multitude of people practising taiji for health in the park. Yet, if you look at some of the big guns in the taiji world, no one moves like them, except for a few of the "in group". It's the same with aikido.

Quote:

I wouldn't dismiss zen so fast, many swordmasters were zen adept. The Unconscious state is samadhi,from whence effective application commences.


I would suggest reading Donn Draeger's Japanese Swordsmanship (Technique and Practice) for a very different point of view. Too much to post here that is actually on topic, suffice to say your point about "many swordmasters being zen adepts" is plain wrong. Draeger's treatment of the subject is certainly worth reading. As far as effective application arising from an unconscious state of samadhi... that is also way off-base.

Quote:

let's keep this thread on course: effective application:


Let's... but you seem to pick the tangential points to argue...

Quote:

I ask you to do the same as wristtwister, post a video of what you 're talking about. I'd like to see if you make visual sense.


What I do would make absolutely no visual sense to you. You simply won't be able to see what I do. Not only do I no longer do "aikido forms", I simply stand my ground and bounce people off, or make them dance in whatever direction I want them to... pain factor is usually extra, if they ask for it. Most people watching what I do would say that's "fake"... until they're on the receiving end of it. The old saying, IHTBSF - it has to be shown and felt.

But, you know, compared to some others, I'm nowhere near what they can do, but at least I know what I'm working on... and it ain't about doing more "forms".

The late Terry Dobson wrote, "The 'form' of aikido is the enemy of aikido". Not trying to put wristtwister on par with Terry, but have a read of what wristtwister has to say about "forms" in the karate section. Unconscious repetitious forms do not equate to effective application. Only effective teaching and training methods can help the average student attain effectiveness in applying the principles and techniques that the forms are meant to teach, whilst under fire. Understanding what "forms" are meant to be training also help.

Don't get me wrong, I have a greater appreciation of "forms" than I did 20 years ago - now that I understand their purpose. But there are other, better and more effective ways of training that thru repetitious forms-based training. If you learn to stand and move correctly (whilst under pressure), the forms begin to make sense. And then you'll start to see all forms as being the one thing. This is what Ueshiba called "enter thru form, exit from form".

Like wristtwister once said, it's when you can slip from jujitsu to karate to aiki and your opponent cannot differentiate what's what, that you'll start to perceive what he and I are really talking about, when we say "effective application". It's not about the "form", or even the distinction between jujitsu, karate or aiki.

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#345598 - 06/18/07 03:33 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
My bad, it was in the Forms & Application section here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1

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#345599 - 06/18/07 12:11 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
Gentleman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 5
I went to your site (www.liaikikai.com) and read the Bio on your teacher. Who is this guy Yasuo O'Hara? The Bio seems to credit him as the founder of "1st" New York Aikikai. It also says that Edward Hagihara started Aikido in the 1950's. Was the New York Aikikai already in operation before Yoshimitsu Yamada came over from Japan?

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#345600 - 06/18/07 01:10 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
Gentleman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 5
From what little I know about Aikido, it seems very different from most martial arts. The founder was more interested in peaceful resolutions to conflict than we was in contests of strength. So sparing was not permitted by the founder.

How do I want my grade schooler to learn? Do I want him to be forced to go on Jeopardy to see if he is "worth it" as a student? I hope not. I hope he learns in a peaceful environment first before he has to face the difficult challenges of life. I think traditional martial arts should be practiced in the same way. That being said, practice can get more realistic once trust between partners is understood.

I believe the actual self-defense portion of traditional martial arts only makes up a small part of Budo. I think it is a method of finding peace in this world. I've read somewhere that the Japanese character (Kanji) for Budo means "to stop the spear". Since Budo is a way of life that permeates all aspects of our day-to-day experiences, such a practitioner should strive to end strife in all of its manifestations; even in how he/she trains.

Someone one said that experience is the worst teacher; it gives the test before the lesson.

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#345601 - 06/18/07 06:23 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Gentleman]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Hi, gentleman,

welcome to the craziness.
I agree with you 100% about your insights on learning.
I think it reminded me why I did aikido over the other arts>> I don't like the grunting contests. aikido went more with the flow. sort of said , " here, you can take what i'm teaching, and use it, for inner peace, to prevent an attacker from harming you, to learn the mechanics of body movement. it was interactive from day one, grabs, throws, i learned the mechanics of the human body. yes , i think it's the perfect choice for your child.

from what i know , aikido was started in NY , in the 50s , by yasuo O'hara, where sensei hagihara became an initiate to the art. he returned to japan, where he studied under O'Sensei, and had the green tea ceremony with O'Sensei, which is the prelude to receiving shodan. It was at this point that O'sensei told our sensei hagihara "to teach my aikido to the world." Sensei has been doing that ever since. He was dispatched to NY to restart NY Aikikai and then Yamada was sent over to collaborate. At this point, sensei was sent to Long Island, ( suburb of NY) to further aikido there. He continued to hold Saturday classes at NY Aikikai until recently.

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#345602 - 06/18/07 09:00 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
RE: my asking to see a video of your technique.

Quote:

What I do would make absolutely no visual sense to you. You simply won't be able to see what I do.




No, I'm sure I'll be able to see what I need to see. Come on, We're waiting.

BTW I wanted to let you know , my videos were more about the experiences I had in training, it was not meant to be an exposition of technique. That'll be coming soon though.

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#345603 - 06/18/07 09:13 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Gentleman]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

From what little I know about Aikido, it seems very different from most martial arts. The founder was more interested in peaceful resolutions to conflict than we was in contests of strength. So sparing was not permitted by the founder.




Don't drink the kool aid! Aikido developed using the up and down motions of swordfighting, and the jujutsu techniques connected to several systems that are currently known as aiki-jujutsu... so if you don't think Aikido looks like other martial arts, you need to see "other martial arts". Takeshin aiki-jujutsu would be a good start, and Daito Ryu would be another.

As for sparring, it is called randori in Aikido, and it is an integral part of the training (if you know what you're doing). It works up from "single attacker" randori to multiple attackers, and attackers with weapons as your skills improve... up to and including "tachi tori" (sword-taking techniques)... but you're right... no sparring with gloves and kick pads.

As for contests of strength, Aikido was constantly tested against other types and styles of martial arts. The prohibition against "contests" in Aikido was more designed to keep the technique intact, rather than having it changed to fit the "rules" of contest. Ueshiba Sensei loved teaching people that his methods and arts were superior to theirs, and did public displays of it all the time.

Quote:

I believe the actual self-defense portion of traditional martial arts only makes up a small part of Budo.




True Budo is the art of killing. It is soldier arts based on the sword, halbred, and other Samurai weapons. Much of it goes all the way back to the early origins of warfare in both China and Japan, and the empty handed arts developed from the necessity of having something to protect yourself if you lost your weapon. Most of the techniques of jujutsu and aikido can be done both with or without a sword, or in defense against one.

Budo arts became "do" (the way) only after swords were banned, and the empty hand arts changed from jutsu (methods) to do (the way or path). They were never self-defense arts as practiced today, and arts such as Judo and Aikido were developed to eliminate many of the more dangerous techniques in order to teach them to a broader audience of players.

What many of the Aikido practitioners can't separate is the technique from the philosophy. It is true that O'Sensei was a very spiritual man, and wanted to teach people to be peaceful through his art, but he never separated the spirit of the technique from the purpose of it.

The dynamics of Aikido's technique is what makes it effective, and when it is done with people who have good ukemi (or are smart enough to "escape" before the technique is unleashed on them)it looks fakey... but don't think that it doesn't have more than enough to handle anyone.

Personally, I don't do "polite" Aikido. I keep emotional content in every technique, and I expect my students to respond with emotional content in their defenses and attacks. My senior student is sandan in two different styles of Aikido and godan in jujutsu, and he tells me every time I see him how thankful he is for the depth of understanding of technique he has developed by applying elemental danger in the techniques.

Having trained for almost 45 years, I've seen martial arts develop since 1962. Many of the myths and "stories" are still around, and much of what is told as fact is absolute garbage... so "don't drink the cool aid". Find out for yourself and find a school for yourself and your children where "emotional content" is in the training... not just the "peace, love, and harmony" aspect of companionship with fellow martial artists. It takes a teacher who can smile and be your friend as he plants your shadow permanently in the mats... and isn't afraid to allow you to feel the pain of training to understand the technique completely.

There is a difference between pain and "damage", and good teachers can make everything hurt without causing harm... and when they do, they're saying "I love you" in the finest spirit of Budo.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345604 - 06/18/07 10:51 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

RE: my asking to see a video of your technique. No, I'm sure I'll be able to see what I need to see. Come on, We're waiting.


You'll be waiting a while then. Acquiring a video camera to satisfy your curiosity is not exactly on my affordability list of priorities. Even if I did, I guarantee you won't be able to "see" what I'm doing. Can you see where weight is transferred from ground to hands, or where force is directed across gaps from hara to point of connection? I don't think so....

In any case, I'm not a stickler for form - there are simply too many variables and variations in the way uke can move.... no 2 attacks are exactly the same even if they happen to be the "same" attack. Therefore each "technique" will not look exactly the same. So tell me, what exactly do you think you will "see" and how would you know?

Quote:

BTW I wanted to let you know , my videos were more about the experiences I had in training, it was not meant to be an exposition of technique. That'll be coming soon though.


I understand that, but we're talking about effective application not video content. And frankly, I don't see how a video can convey emotional content or effective application adequately.

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#345605 - 06/19/07 12:01 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Acquiring a video camera to satisfy your curiosity is not exactly on my affordability list of priorities.



Actually it's not just my curiosity, most of the folks on this thread have also voiced the same request( they shall remain anonymous ) .

If funds are insufficient,then we'll start up a collection! (seriously though, if you have a cellphone, it likely has a video option or perhaps someone in your dojo has a videocam.) we are becoming a visual-medium oriented society.

Heck, I'll come and film you at the dojo...

Quote:

I guarantee you won't be able to "see" what I'm doing. Can you see where weight is transferred from ground to hands, or where force is directed across gaps from hara to point of connection? I don't think so....





But then, how is it that you can see my video and criticize, but I can't ?

aw, come on, let's have a look..after all that elaborate talk, ya gotta show us , now's the time to shine ! .don't be shy...we're all friends here...,we want to see past that gruff exterior.. maybe you'll be the next Steven Segal....

Mark.

(dont forget to take this all with a grain of salt!

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#345606 - 06/19/07 12:13 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

No, I'm sure I'll be able to see what I need to see.




Well, tell me Mark, if I change from doing an aiki-jujutsu technique to aikido technique or vice-versa, will you be able to pick that suttle change out?... or maybe if I use a chin-na grip and lock and reverse it to an aikido throw? Perhaps if Eyrie or I simply "did what we do" are you sure you'd even understand what was going on? I seriously doubt it.

Effective application means something... and it isn't how "smooth" you look on youtube, or how "bada$$" you can appear "doing Aikido". Effective application is a real world art.

Something I noticed in one of your videos was how scrambled one of your black belts looked trying to get up after being thrown. Now, to me, that indicates either a lack of ukemi skills or lack of their effective application of them. It doesn't take an Aikido master to fall down and get up, but even my worst students do it in one motion most of the time, unless it's a breakfall. Even then, they spin and recover their position defensively.

The maxim in our training is "hit me... if you can"... so when an attacker is giving us a gripping attack, they are also attempting to hit us in the face, so our technique has to both "do" the Aikido technique as well as keep us from getting hit. I didn't see any of that in your video... what I saw was "polite" Aikido step throughs with compliant "attackers". Now, there's nothing wrong with doing Aikido that way, it just isn't the way Eyrie or I do it.

Just as a curiosity, what kind of karate training do you have? Judo? Jujutsu? Chin Na? What technique would you recommend against Isshin Ryu karate attacks? Shotokan? How would you protect yourself against a side-separation throw? What defense would you use against a triangle arm lock? EFFECTIVE Aikido application has to be able to defend against all those things... now the big question... Do you train against those?.. or do you simply train against the shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, katatori, katatetori attacks of Aikido?

You see, I'm not even really an "Aikido" guy... I'm a jujutsu guy... but I've got 23 years of Aikido training. Why... simple... I have to have the information to use against someone attempting to use Aikido on me.

How does your Aikido work when you're injured? If you take a good, hard kick to the outer leg, how will your technique work? How will you do Aikido if you have a torn rotator cuff during a fight? What techniques will you revert to using if your mobility is crushed, or you're jammed into a corner with no room for movement? Have you ever done randori with live knife blades?

What you fail to understand is more than you understand about Aikido (not meant as a personal attack, just an observation) simply because you do not understand "effective application". It isn't "cross training"... it's training against those things you will encounter in the real world... and I can't remember the last time somebody attacked me with a shomenuchi or yokomenuchi in a fight... if ever.

Sorry I don't have a video for you, but if I did, you wouldn't know what was going on because it would be expansions of other arts into Aikido or the use of Aikido to expand them. It isn't a linear equation... it's cumulative, and the variations are endless. You would be constantly saying "that's not how we do it"... and I would certainly hope so...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345607 - 06/19/07 12:34 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
We've recently moved North, so (at the moment) there is no dojo... only the front yard or back yard (6 acres of it). There are no students at the moment, only my 2 boys, but hopefully that will change soon (as soon as this infernal rain moves to where it's needed most - i.e. not here).

Alas, I don't have vid cam on my mobile. We're also in a cell phone black spot, so I can't really justify a new mobile phone anyway. But hey, donations are more than welcome...

How can I see what you are doing and you can't? Simple. Because what you are doing is "external" aikido. I have seen enough to know that what I'm doing is very different from what "looks" like an external technique. My aikido looks nothing like what you're doing.

The invitation for you (or anyone else) is always open. I have extended open invites to various folk on this forum. I apologize in advance for the lack of a proper dojo, but since we're all "martial artists" and friends here, a bit of hard ground wouldn't hurt would it? If not, we can always find a soft patch of grass in amongst the mimosa and horse [censored] for you to roll if you like.

So, by all means, make the trip and come film me... I don't have much to offer except my hospitality, cold beers in the fridge, good food in your belly and a very different perspective on aiki training.

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#345608 - 06/19/07 12:39 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
Gentleman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 5
Quote:

Don't drink the kool aid! Aikido developed using the up and down motions of swordfighting, and the jujutsu techniques connected to several systems that are currently known as aiki-jujutsu... so if you don't think Aikido looks like other martial arts, you need to see "other martial arts".




I don't believe I was speaking to Aikido's appearance. Form is an illusion. I was making a comment on how Aikidoist try to harmonize with antagonists; whether they be on the street or on the Web.

Quote:

As for sparring, it is called randori in Aikido, and it is an integral part of the training (if you know what you're doing). It works up from "single attacker" randori to multiple attackers, and attackers with weapons as your skills improve... up to and including "tachi tori" (sword-taking techniques)... but you're right... no sparring with gloves and kick pads.




The Randori practiced in a traditional Aikido School is not sparing. Randori is not a back and forth exchange. Ukes are not trying to counter Nage. Instead Ukes are there as constant attackers so that Nage can learn to let go and just move.

Quote:

As for contests of strength, Aikido was constantly tested against other types and styles of martial arts. The prohibition against "contests" in Aikido was more designed to keep the technique intact, rather than having it changed to fit the "rules" of contest. Ueshiba Sensei loved teaching people that his methods and arts were superior to theirs, and did public displays of it all the time.




"If there's shiai (contest), there's always a loser. He's not happy, so he'll get back at you later. So instead of beating a person, winning over yourself (your ego) is harder. So you do keiko shugyo (austere training)." - O'Sensei

Once Aikido was called Aikido and not Aiki-Budo, O'Sensei did not seek out challenges. In fact he only accepted one. In the following link, one of his Uchi Deshi talks about this (11 questions down):

http://www.aikidoonline.com/Archives/NoDate/feat_tkc.html


Quote:

True Budo is the art of killing.




It's different for me. I aspire to follow the ideals of O'Sensei.

“True budo is a work of love. It is a work of giving life to all beings, and not killing or struggling with each other. Love is the guardian deity of everything. Nothing can exist without it. Aikido is the realization of love.” - O'Sensei

I do not wish to get sucked into arguing, so this will be my last post. A flute is not a flute if it doesn't have holes. So Aikido isn't Aikido if there is no Harmony.

Aikidonut, thanks for your reply. Be weary! I have a feeling that some here have no lineage with O'Sensei. If that's so, we can continue these talks at Tiger Shulman's. I hear that they do Aikido too. ;-)

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#345609 - 06/19/07 01:11 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark, I know it feels like wristtwister and I seem to be ganging up on you. Be assured, we are not. Now wristtwister and I have never met, but we both are on the priority list to visit each other when finances and opportunity presents itself - and when the planets align in an auspicious configuration.

So even though we have never met, there are certain things that people say that only those in the know, will know precisely what the other means or is talking about. It is quite obvious to both of us that you do not.

While I don't have the breadth or depth of wristtwister's experience or years of training, I have trained with some very good people in the past, not just in aikido, but karatejutsu, arnis, TKD, jujitsu and taiji. So I understand precisely where wristtwister is coming from.

Applying (standard technical form) aikido in the first instance against a different system is a completely different ballgame. I know it. I've done it. If anything, it certainly teaches you A LOT about your aikido.

Part of being a good martial artist is being highly flexible (mentally) and adaptable. It is, in essence, the Art of War... where strategies and tactics, and counter tactics count more than simply having "effective" techniques. That's way it's called the martial "arts". Of course, being a good technician is fundamental.

And in response to Gentleman, FWIW, aikido doesn't have the market cornered on harmony and the Art of Peace. All true budo and bujutsu are both the Art of War and the Art of Peace.... but not in the sense of "love, peace and harmony".

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#345610 - 06/19/07 11:05 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Online   happy
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Eyrie -

If you and Wrist are not capable or amenable to providing comparison vids of yourselves, can you find a representative vid of an aikidoka that does demonstrate the qualities that you are discussing? Or at least demonstrates an aikidoka that possesses said qualities, even if they are not present on that particular vid?

I am interested to see for myself if anyone can tell the difference.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#345611 - 06/19/07 12:33 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
There are so many comments I want to address, but let me keep it brief.
Eyrie, you seem to have an air of honesty about you which I find admirable. However:

Quote:

So even though we have never met, there are certain things that people say that only those in the know, will know precisely what the other means or is talking about. It is quite obvious to both of us that you do not .




I think that perhaps for the purposes of not alienating people in this forum/thread, we should limit our comments by refraining from phrases like , " you have no idea.." ,or "only so and so and i know, and it's obvious you don't . it sounds too much like when our parents would say," why? Because I said so , that's why"

You really truly have no idea what I know. Or where I'm from, or what I've been through.

I believe the name of this forum is "aikido/daito ryu". not "my own style which I have devised from my 50+ years of karate, TKD , jujutsu, chin na etc.." so let's limit discussion to aikido ( teachings of O'sensei ), or Daito Ryu.

I actually like you guys, but let's just keep down the bristliness. looks like we already lost an earnest reader
( gentleman)

and I second Matt J's motion. We are all here to learn and compare notes.

Peace,

Mark

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#345612 - 06/19/07 03:50 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
iaibear Offline
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Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I confess to being curious, as well.

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#345613 - 06/19/07 07:04 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Matt,

I would love to post a vid of myself, but I just am not in a position to do so right now. But here is a vid that someone has posted of my teacher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW3YE-oJJao

Bear in mind, it's a "demonstration", and there is an element of putting on a show, as well as allowing sensei to do his "thing". I'll admit it's not the best. But Takeda is extremely subtle and it's pretty hard to see precisely what he's doing. He's also apparently recovering from an op where they removed part of his bowel.

See if you can catch the elbow to the chin at around 1:46-1:48...

You really have to be on the receiving end of his technique to know how much power there is in such a "relaxed" state. I know... I have been on the receiving end of it many times... one of the downsides of having good ukemi.... sensei always picks you to demo.

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#345614 - 06/19/07 07:25 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Mark,
I thought I asked pretty straightforward questions... no bristling to them, just questions... and as usual, you turned your head, walked off in a different direction, and didn't bother to answer them. I don't know what makes you think that your Aikido is somehow superior simply because you have a video of it. Okay,... you win... now what?

Quote:

You really truly have no idea what I know.


Maybe... maybe not... but I know what I've seen of what's going on in your dojo's practice, and it wasn't impressive. Perhaps your sensei and black belts are much better than they show in your video, but we've already given you the "winner" title in that category, so where do you go from there?

Quote:

I believe the name of this forum is "aikido/daito ryu". not "my own style which I have devised from my 50+ years of karate, TKD , jujutsu, chin na etc.." so let's limit discussion to aikido ( teachings of O'sensei ), or Daito Ryu.




No, the thread focus was on "effective application of Aikido"... not the teachings of O'Sensei. You can't have it both ways, which is another dodge on your part. If you can't construct a viable argument... "talk about something else" is your tact... and I certainly don't respect the snide comment about this being some art other than Aikido which you allude to as being a style developed from a bunch of other arts. That simply tells me you don't train against anything except other aikidoists... and while you might have good Aikido basics, I doubt seriously if you have any serious depth of knowledge. It comes out in what you say and your approach to Aikido and martial arts in general. That's not personal, it's just an observation.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody died and left you and your dojo in charge of Aikido. Eyrie and I both have a common bond through our training methods and our diversity of skills. I don't need to parade his or my Sensei's credentials out for everybody to see, or even say where they're registered because it all goes back to Hombu at some point, and whether it's Shin Shin Toitsu, Yoshinkan, or Fred Smith's Dojo and Hot Dog parlor... if it's Aikido, it's Aikido... and just in case you don't know quite as much as you think, O'Sensei had teachers that taught him too! Do we need to go back to the dojo he swept as a lad and research the credentials of those people too?
Hell, we could probably trace Aikido all the way back to Adam and Eve...

As for losing "an ernest reader", "gentleman"'s welcome to read or not anything on this board or any of the other ones. If he only wants to hear what he agrees with, he's pretty shallow, and I didn't see that in his posts, although he does have some misconceptions about what Aikido really is and isn't. He's entitled to them, and I have no problem with somebody practicing with their vision clouded.
You can train to fight, or you can train to train... it's anybody's choice.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345615 - 06/19/07 08:10 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark,

Wristtwister has already addressed many of these points above and in previous posts, so I won't belabour the point.

There are many videos already posted of people like Shioda, Tohei, etc. If you can find a video of the late Seigo Yamaguchi, or Daito-ryu's Sugawara, you'll see (maybe?) what I'm talking about. Even your own sensei, Eddie Hagahara. As I said before, no one in your dojo moves like him.

What you all seem to be doing is "external" aikido, thinking that that's where the technique's "effectiveness" lies - in doing it, for want of a better word to convey what I really mean, "harder" or in a more "combat oriented" manner. Except what you think "combat orientation" means is not it.

Aikido is derived from the same set of body mechanics as sword and spear. If you wield a weapon the way you apply empty-handed techniques (as demonstrated in your vids), you will not be able to hold onto a 2.5lb daito (long sword) for very long. (As a comparison, boxing gloves are 8-12oz.... battles tended to last longer than 15x3min rounds).

It's got absolutely nothing to do with "styles", much less a conglomeration of various systems. FWIW, I use cross-training as a means to test myself, sometimes I get hit or caught out, sometimes I don't. It's not about winning or losing - hence the delusion of whether something is "effective" or not. It's more about learning about yourself and improving yourself. The other guy is merely the "learning" facilitator (whether he knows it or not). And whether you know it or not, that's precisely what you do as uke when you attack. You're both learning where the openings and holes are.

So as far as "effective application" goes, whoever can perceive, exploit or draw the openings (suki) better than the other person is the more effective player. Simple as that. As you both get better, the contest for the line becomes paramount. And nothing elucidates this better than weapons work - i.e. sword and spear.

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#345616 - 06/19/07 10:03 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

and I certainly don't respect the snide comment about this being some art other than Aikido which you allude to as being a style developed from a bunch of other arts.




if the shoe fits...

oh and it's not personal, that's just an observation

Mark

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#345617 - 06/19/07 10:35 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
C'mon Mark... keep it on topic.

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#345618 - 06/19/07 10:41 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Online   happy
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Quote by eyrie -

Quote:

Aikido is derived from the same set of body mechanics as sword and spear. If you wield a weapon the way you apply empty-handed techniques (as demonstrated in your vids), you will not be able to hold onto a 2.5lb daito (long sword) for very long. (As a comparison, boxing gloves are 8-12oz.... battles tended to last longer than 15x3min rounds).




Very thought provoking point, Eyrie. I don't have the requisite weapons experience to truly understand, but I think I get the gist. Good explanation.

I'm not entirely convinced that would necessarily impact Aikido's effectiveness versus another stylist, but I can see where that may impact overall efficiency.

NOTE TO EVERYONE - Let's please keep the personal hand-bag swinging out of this. Topic!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#345619 - 06/19/07 10:54 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I will if you can be civil .

I've tried already to extend an olive branch, you refused it once. go and re-read your posts.

wrt to your statement about my empty hand technique, look at my second video on

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g-jNVPJ3uuA ,at 1:00-1:05, me doing irimi nage from tsuki on a large sandan,220 lbs of muscle. go ahead. and , I'd like the others' opinions too.

and how about sensei throwing adam @ 1:47 ? no intent? and that ukemi is tough. he's just pivoting on a central point in the air, no holding, using only his momentum and sensei's ki.

and , please, don't say you've done it dozens of times b4 if you don't have the video. it's easy to criticize from an armchair.
I hope this is on topic, and let's keep it this way.


Mark


Edited by aikidonut (06/19/07 11:13 PM)

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#345620 - 06/19/07 11:40 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you Matt. That is precisely my point - although I think you've misunderstood the thrust of my example.

The 2 metrics of Efficiency and Effectiveness are (often) mutually exclusive: You can either get it fast or get it right, but you can rarely get both at the same time. (The old engineer's joke - did you want that done fast, right or cheap - pick one).

Efficiency is a measure of speed (and cost) - i.e. doing something harder and/or faster, whilst effectiveness is a measure of quality, i.e. doing it/getting it right. The question is how do you measure the effectiveness of martial application of one style or system against another? I don't think you can... other than one "wins" and one "loses".

However, I think you can address this in terms of training methods. Some methods are more effective than others, whilst others are more efficient (or should that be expedient?) at producing results in a much shorter time.

So, back to my example of sword swinging (or hand-bags if you like)... learning to hold and wield a long sword correctly is a function of effectiveness. That you can mow down 3-5 foot soldiers a minute is a function of efficiency.

I'm guessing you'd want to maintain some sort of balance between effectiveness AND efficiency.

But the topic is directed at whether some of these drills provide the means of developing effective Aikido applications against a different stylist. My initial response is no, as I did not see any effective or even basic aikido utilized in the rush drill vid. I think at one point, one of the guys did an irimi and that was about it. Every single person in the vid invariably ended up attempting to pivot or sidestep the rushers, which in such a scenario, I believe is the absolute wrong thing to do - the sort of thing that would get you killed.

Again, back to my sword swinging example, the one thing that I didn't see in the rush drills, is to "enter and cut" continually. This is basic aikido. If you watch any of the Seagal vids, that is precisely what he's doing - enter and cut. The fact that uke usually bails before the strike, is simply a game of "chicken".

If you go back and watch the vid of my teacher, or even that of Hagihara, you'll see that is precisely what they're doing, enter and cut, turn and cut - albeit at a much more subtle level.

BTW, it's a man-bag.... and I'll darn well "swing" it both ways if I choose to...

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#345621 - 06/19/07 11:57 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark,

I AM being civil. You seem to be continually belabouring the point. The invitation for you to come film me is still open. How is that not reciprocating your "olive branch"?

My comments regarding your irimi nage and what Hagihara is doing is in post #15946445. You seem to have ignored it.

Maybe you'd like to go over that post again and offer your analysis on my comments?


Edited by eyrie (06/20/07 12:03 AM)

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#345622 - 06/20/07 12:29 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

learning to hold and wield a long sword correctly is a function of effectiveness.


Sorry, that should read ..."learning to hold and wield a long sword correctly so as to inflict the appropriate amount of damage is a function of effectiveness."

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#345623 - 06/20/07 01:41 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I am asking for other's opinions. I read what you said, and to comment on your comments would be to go off topic.

in both throws , i take 2 steps each about 5 feet wide, and the the last step ends with a slide step of the rear foot, a common tai sabaki (foot technique )from the bokto ( sword ) movements. So I was trying to use the ground, as you said.

if the throw wasn't pretty, the proof was in the pudding,it did move my uke,the 220 pounder ( how much is that in stone?) who, I guarantee, will not fall/let alone breakfall for you if not definitely motivated in that direction. Also, he was grabbing on to my gi during the breakfalls, a common practice in aikido ( the one i do ), and if nage's not keeping his center, nage will FALL down with uke,or lose his gi.

But,..I admit, I am an upper body kind of person, you're right,I could move more from the center.

And, Yes, I agree with your comments about the sword and aikido. Shihonage ( four directions throw, I'm mentioning that for other's benefit, not yours, i know you know..)is the most obvious technique in which you could place a sword in nage's throwing hands, rather than an uke, ..you can see it in the bo-kata, 13 moves ( you know , the one that goes "thir- tee-eee-een"), ( cutting the corners of the room, ending with a large tenkan circular sword move ) . I could video that for MattJ , if he wishes. It is a move detailed in Saotome sensei's book.

Mark

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#345624 - 06/20/07 02:46 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I am asking for other's opinions. I read what you said, and to comment on your comments would be to go off topic.


No, this is your reply to me...

Quote:


wrt to your statement about my empty hand technique, look at my second video on http://youtube.com/watch?v=g-jNVPJ3uuA ,at 1:00-1:05, me doing irimi nage from tsuki on a large sandan,220 lbs of muscle. go ahead. and , I'd like the others' opinions too.


I'm really trying to be "nice", Mark, but you don't seem to take positive or negative criticism too well, unless it's a pat on the back. Perhaps that 4x2 on your shoulder is obscuring your view...

Quote:

in both throws , i take 2 steps each about 5 feet wide, and the the last step ends with a slide step of the rear foot, a common tai sabaki (foot technique )from the bokto ( sword ) movements. So I was trying to use the ground, as you said.


Well, your idea of "using the ground" is not what I meant. I meant use the ground to power the technique - like funekogi. When you're in transition, it is difficult to maintain your balance and connection to the ground. Any slight shift in directional force acting on you can easily topple you. It is this precise reason that faster, harder attacks are easier to deal with than slow, static ones. Think about it.

Quote:

If the throw wasn't pretty, the proof was in the pudding,it did move my uke,the 220 pounder ( how much is that in stone?) who, I guarantee, will not fall/let alone breakfall for you if not definitely motivated in that direction. Also, he was grabbing on to my gi during the breakfalls, a common practice in aikido ( the one i do ), and if nage's not keeping his center, nage will FALL down with uke,or lose his gi.


I've already said this, it's not whether the technique looks "pretty" or not. If anything, real techniques never look pretty. So, let me take it down a couple of notches so you can dissect your own technique and look at ways of improving it, both from an effectiveness and efficiency perspective. Would that be OK with you?

Firstly, it's one step too many, and too big a stride. 5 feet in 2 steps equates to 2.5 feet per stride. BTW, I'm taking your word for it that it is 2 steps of 5 feet, rather than reviewing the vid again. Try timing your entry so you're taking one step of a 1 foot stride, that will place you squarely right inside his maai just as he is stepping forward.

A 220lb person is going to be really hard to move if you clash with his momentum head on, which IIRC, is what you were attempting to do. Instead, step off the line of attack slightly and time your entry to catch him just before he plants his forward foot.

This way, he's almost standing all his weight on one foot, which will make it easier to obtain kuzushi as you redirect his momentum up and over to the rear corner. He should in effect feel like he's run into a jello brick wall. Even if he grabs your gi, you *should* still remain standing and with feet firmly planted. Although it can be quite challenging to support 220lb hanging off you unless you've train to do that.

Also, rather than relying on shoulder strength to effect the kuzushi, try using a funekogi motion forward and down. That way you are utilizing your whole body weight to add to the throw.

Now, does that make sense?

All martial arts are about positional advantage and contest for the line, which involves a whole range of things, least of which has to do with "technique" itself. Technique is simply what happens when you get all the other factors right - position, timing, angle, breathing, posture, etc. etc.

How you get there is thru the "basics" - and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean even simpler than that...

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#345625 - 06/20/07 09:32 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
That's fine, I understand.
I thought I said that already , about staying centered, but you made the point again, and that's fine. yes timing is important. your criticisms have been read, and understood. Thank you for your time and effort.

I am not belabouring anything. everyday is a clean slate.
My only request still,is that you put up a video of your explanations, it would clarify your points especially funekogi, for some of us.
and certainly you bring up some good points which would emphasized well.

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#345626 - 06/20/07 07:14 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

That's fine, I understand.
I thought I said that already , about staying centered, but you made the point again, and that's fine. yes timing is important. your criticisms have been read, and understood.


What no questions???? I don't think you do understand what staying "centered" means. I know you can sort of do it, but do you understand what's actually involved in staying centered? Maybe try explaining what you mean.

Quote:

I am not belabouring anything. everyday is a clean slate.


Was it never a clean slate??

Quote:

My only request still,is that you put up a video of your explanations,


Which part of "I do not have a video" did you not understand?

Quote:

it would clarify your points especially funekogi, for some of us.


First tell me what you understand of funekogi, its purpose and how you do it....

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#345627 - 06/20/07 10:04 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Well guys, this thread is going in circles at this point, so I'm going to have to lock it now. I may unlock it for future generations, but for now it's getting nowhere.

Start a new thread on any unanswered questions you may have (such as funekogi etc.)


Edited by Ames (06/20/07 10:05 PM)
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