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#345612 - 06/19/07 03:50 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I confess to being curious, as well.

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#345613 - 06/19/07 07:04 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Matt,

I would love to post a vid of myself, but I just am not in a position to do so right now. But here is a vid that someone has posted of my teacher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW3YE-oJJao

Bear in mind, it's a "demonstration", and there is an element of putting on a show, as well as allowing sensei to do his "thing". I'll admit it's not the best. But Takeda is extremely subtle and it's pretty hard to see precisely what he's doing. He's also apparently recovering from an op where they removed part of his bowel.

See if you can catch the elbow to the chin at around 1:46-1:48...

You really have to be on the receiving end of his technique to know how much power there is in such a "relaxed" state. I know... I have been on the receiving end of it many times... one of the downsides of having good ukemi.... sensei always picks you to demo.

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#345614 - 06/19/07 07:25 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Mark,
I thought I asked pretty straightforward questions... no bristling to them, just questions... and as usual, you turned your head, walked off in a different direction, and didn't bother to answer them. I don't know what makes you think that your Aikido is somehow superior simply because you have a video of it. Okay,... you win... now what?

Quote:

You really truly have no idea what I know.


Maybe... maybe not... but I know what I've seen of what's going on in your dojo's practice, and it wasn't impressive. Perhaps your sensei and black belts are much better than they show in your video, but we've already given you the "winner" title in that category, so where do you go from there?

Quote:

I believe the name of this forum is "aikido/daito ryu". not "my own style which I have devised from my 50+ years of karate, TKD , jujutsu, chin na etc.." so let's limit discussion to aikido ( teachings of O'sensei ), or Daito Ryu.




No, the thread focus was on "effective application of Aikido"... not the teachings of O'Sensei. You can't have it both ways, which is another dodge on your part. If you can't construct a viable argument... "talk about something else" is your tact... and I certainly don't respect the snide comment about this being some art other than Aikido which you allude to as being a style developed from a bunch of other arts. That simply tells me you don't train against anything except other aikidoists... and while you might have good Aikido basics, I doubt seriously if you have any serious depth of knowledge. It comes out in what you say and your approach to Aikido and martial arts in general. That's not personal, it's just an observation.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody died and left you and your dojo in charge of Aikido. Eyrie and I both have a common bond through our training methods and our diversity of skills. I don't need to parade his or my Sensei's credentials out for everybody to see, or even say where they're registered because it all goes back to Hombu at some point, and whether it's Shin Shin Toitsu, Yoshinkan, or Fred Smith's Dojo and Hot Dog parlor... if it's Aikido, it's Aikido... and just in case you don't know quite as much as you think, O'Sensei had teachers that taught him too! Do we need to go back to the dojo he swept as a lad and research the credentials of those people too?
Hell, we could probably trace Aikido all the way back to Adam and Eve...

As for losing "an ernest reader", "gentleman"'s welcome to read or not anything on this board or any of the other ones. If he only wants to hear what he agrees with, he's pretty shallow, and I didn't see that in his posts, although he does have some misconceptions about what Aikido really is and isn't. He's entitled to them, and I have no problem with somebody practicing with their vision clouded.
You can train to fight, or you can train to train... it's anybody's choice.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345615 - 06/19/07 08:10 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark,

Wristtwister has already addressed many of these points above and in previous posts, so I won't belabour the point.

There are many videos already posted of people like Shioda, Tohei, etc. If you can find a video of the late Seigo Yamaguchi, or Daito-ryu's Sugawara, you'll see (maybe?) what I'm talking about. Even your own sensei, Eddie Hagahara. As I said before, no one in your dojo moves like him.

What you all seem to be doing is "external" aikido, thinking that that's where the technique's "effectiveness" lies - in doing it, for want of a better word to convey what I really mean, "harder" or in a more "combat oriented" manner. Except what you think "combat orientation" means is not it.

Aikido is derived from the same set of body mechanics as sword and spear. If you wield a weapon the way you apply empty-handed techniques (as demonstrated in your vids), you will not be able to hold onto a 2.5lb daito (long sword) for very long. (As a comparison, boxing gloves are 8-12oz.... battles tended to last longer than 15x3min rounds).

It's got absolutely nothing to do with "styles", much less a conglomeration of various systems. FWIW, I use cross-training as a means to test myself, sometimes I get hit or caught out, sometimes I don't. It's not about winning or losing - hence the delusion of whether something is "effective" or not. It's more about learning about yourself and improving yourself. The other guy is merely the "learning" facilitator (whether he knows it or not). And whether you know it or not, that's precisely what you do as uke when you attack. You're both learning where the openings and holes are.

So as far as "effective application" goes, whoever can perceive, exploit or draw the openings (suki) better than the other person is the more effective player. Simple as that. As you both get better, the contest for the line becomes paramount. And nothing elucidates this better than weapons work - i.e. sword and spear.

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#345616 - 06/19/07 10:03 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

and I certainly don't respect the snide comment about this being some art other than Aikido which you allude to as being a style developed from a bunch of other arts.




if the shoe fits...

oh and it's not personal, that's just an observation

Mark

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#345617 - 06/19/07 10:35 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
C'mon Mark... keep it on topic.

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#345618 - 06/19/07 10:41 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by eyrie -

Quote:

Aikido is derived from the same set of body mechanics as sword and spear. If you wield a weapon the way you apply empty-handed techniques (as demonstrated in your vids), you will not be able to hold onto a 2.5lb daito (long sword) for very long. (As a comparison, boxing gloves are 8-12oz.... battles tended to last longer than 15x3min rounds).




Very thought provoking point, Eyrie. I don't have the requisite weapons experience to truly understand, but I think I get the gist. Good explanation.

I'm not entirely convinced that would necessarily impact Aikido's effectiveness versus another stylist, but I can see where that may impact overall efficiency.

NOTE TO EVERYONE - Let's please keep the personal hand-bag swinging out of this. Topic!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#345619 - 06/19/07 10:54 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I will if you can be civil .

I've tried already to extend an olive branch, you refused it once. go and re-read your posts.

wrt to your statement about my empty hand technique, look at my second video on

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g-jNVPJ3uuA ,at 1:00-1:05, me doing irimi nage from tsuki on a large sandan,220 lbs of muscle. go ahead. and , I'd like the others' opinions too.

and how about sensei throwing adam @ 1:47 ? no intent? and that ukemi is tough. he's just pivoting on a central point in the air, no holding, using only his momentum and sensei's ki.

and , please, don't say you've done it dozens of times b4 if you don't have the video. it's easy to criticize from an armchair.
I hope this is on topic, and let's keep it this way.


Mark


Edited by aikidonut (06/19/07 11:13 PM)

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#345620 - 06/19/07 11:40 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you Matt. That is precisely my point - although I think you've misunderstood the thrust of my example.

The 2 metrics of Efficiency and Effectiveness are (often) mutually exclusive: You can either get it fast or get it right, but you can rarely get both at the same time. (The old engineer's joke - did you want that done fast, right or cheap - pick one).

Efficiency is a measure of speed (and cost) - i.e. doing something harder and/or faster, whilst effectiveness is a measure of quality, i.e. doing it/getting it right. The question is how do you measure the effectiveness of martial application of one style or system against another? I don't think you can... other than one "wins" and one "loses".

However, I think you can address this in terms of training methods. Some methods are more effective than others, whilst others are more efficient (or should that be expedient?) at producing results in a much shorter time.

So, back to my example of sword swinging (or hand-bags if you like)... learning to hold and wield a long sword correctly is a function of effectiveness. That you can mow down 3-5 foot soldiers a minute is a function of efficiency.

I'm guessing you'd want to maintain some sort of balance between effectiveness AND efficiency.

But the topic is directed at whether some of these drills provide the means of developing effective Aikido applications against a different stylist. My initial response is no, as I did not see any effective or even basic aikido utilized in the rush drill vid. I think at one point, one of the guys did an irimi and that was about it. Every single person in the vid invariably ended up attempting to pivot or sidestep the rushers, which in such a scenario, I believe is the absolute wrong thing to do - the sort of thing that would get you killed.

Again, back to my sword swinging example, the one thing that I didn't see in the rush drills, is to "enter and cut" continually. This is basic aikido. If you watch any of the Seagal vids, that is precisely what he's doing - enter and cut. The fact that uke usually bails before the strike, is simply a game of "chicken".

If you go back and watch the vid of my teacher, or even that of Hagihara, you'll see that is precisely what they're doing, enter and cut, turn and cut - albeit at a much more subtle level.

BTW, it's a man-bag.... and I'll darn well "swing" it both ways if I choose to...

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#345621 - 06/19/07 11:57 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark,

I AM being civil. You seem to be continually belabouring the point. The invitation for you to come film me is still open. How is that not reciprocating your "olive branch"?

My comments regarding your irimi nage and what Hagihara is doing is in post #15946445. You seem to have ignored it.

Maybe you'd like to go over that post again and offer your analysis on my comments?


Edited by eyrie (06/20/07 12:03 AM)

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