FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 48 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn
22904 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 14
cxt 7
trevek 6
JKogas 5
futsaowingchun 3
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Throwing
by
04/23/05 10:58 PM
Recent Posts
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
Yesterday at 05:11 AM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:53 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
07/24/14 11:35 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
Forum Stats
22904 Members
36 Forums
35564 Topics
432455 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 6 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#345602 - 06/18/07 09:00 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
RE: my asking to see a video of your technique.

Quote:

What I do would make absolutely no visual sense to you. You simply won't be able to see what I do.




No, I'm sure I'll be able to see what I need to see. Come on, We're waiting.

BTW I wanted to let you know , my videos were more about the experiences I had in training, it was not meant to be an exposition of technique. That'll be coming soon though.

Top
#345603 - 06/18/07 09:13 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Gentleman]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

From what little I know about Aikido, it seems very different from most martial arts. The founder was more interested in peaceful resolutions to conflict than we was in contests of strength. So sparing was not permitted by the founder.




Don't drink the kool aid! Aikido developed using the up and down motions of swordfighting, and the jujutsu techniques connected to several systems that are currently known as aiki-jujutsu... so if you don't think Aikido looks like other martial arts, you need to see "other martial arts". Takeshin aiki-jujutsu would be a good start, and Daito Ryu would be another.

As for sparring, it is called randori in Aikido, and it is an integral part of the training (if you know what you're doing). It works up from "single attacker" randori to multiple attackers, and attackers with weapons as your skills improve... up to and including "tachi tori" (sword-taking techniques)... but you're right... no sparring with gloves and kick pads.

As for contests of strength, Aikido was constantly tested against other types and styles of martial arts. The prohibition against "contests" in Aikido was more designed to keep the technique intact, rather than having it changed to fit the "rules" of contest. Ueshiba Sensei loved teaching people that his methods and arts were superior to theirs, and did public displays of it all the time.

Quote:

I believe the actual self-defense portion of traditional martial arts only makes up a small part of Budo.




True Budo is the art of killing. It is soldier arts based on the sword, halbred, and other Samurai weapons. Much of it goes all the way back to the early origins of warfare in both China and Japan, and the empty handed arts developed from the necessity of having something to protect yourself if you lost your weapon. Most of the techniques of jujutsu and aikido can be done both with or without a sword, or in defense against one.

Budo arts became "do" (the way) only after swords were banned, and the empty hand arts changed from jutsu (methods) to do (the way or path). They were never self-defense arts as practiced today, and arts such as Judo and Aikido were developed to eliminate many of the more dangerous techniques in order to teach them to a broader audience of players.

What many of the Aikido practitioners can't separate is the technique from the philosophy. It is true that O'Sensei was a very spiritual man, and wanted to teach people to be peaceful through his art, but he never separated the spirit of the technique from the purpose of it.

The dynamics of Aikido's technique is what makes it effective, and when it is done with people who have good ukemi (or are smart enough to "escape" before the technique is unleashed on them)it looks fakey... but don't think that it doesn't have more than enough to handle anyone.

Personally, I don't do "polite" Aikido. I keep emotional content in every technique, and I expect my students to respond with emotional content in their defenses and attacks. My senior student is sandan in two different styles of Aikido and godan in jujutsu, and he tells me every time I see him how thankful he is for the depth of understanding of technique he has developed by applying elemental danger in the techniques.

Having trained for almost 45 years, I've seen martial arts develop since 1962. Many of the myths and "stories" are still around, and much of what is told as fact is absolute garbage... so "don't drink the cool aid". Find out for yourself and find a school for yourself and your children where "emotional content" is in the training... not just the "peace, love, and harmony" aspect of companionship with fellow martial artists. It takes a teacher who can smile and be your friend as he plants your shadow permanently in the mats... and isn't afraid to allow you to feel the pain of training to understand the technique completely.

There is a difference between pain and "damage", and good teachers can make everything hurt without causing harm... and when they do, they're saying "I love you" in the finest spirit of Budo.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#345604 - 06/18/07 10:51 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

RE: my asking to see a video of your technique. No, I'm sure I'll be able to see what I need to see. Come on, We're waiting.


You'll be waiting a while then. Acquiring a video camera to satisfy your curiosity is not exactly on my affordability list of priorities. Even if I did, I guarantee you won't be able to "see" what I'm doing. Can you see where weight is transferred from ground to hands, or where force is directed across gaps from hara to point of connection? I don't think so....

In any case, I'm not a stickler for form - there are simply too many variables and variations in the way uke can move.... no 2 attacks are exactly the same even if they happen to be the "same" attack. Therefore each "technique" will not look exactly the same. So tell me, what exactly do you think you will "see" and how would you know?

Quote:

BTW I wanted to let you know , my videos were more about the experiences I had in training, it was not meant to be an exposition of technique. That'll be coming soon though.


I understand that, but we're talking about effective application not video content. And frankly, I don't see how a video can convey emotional content or effective application adequately.

Top
#345605 - 06/19/07 12:01 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Acquiring a video camera to satisfy your curiosity is not exactly on my affordability list of priorities.



Actually it's not just my curiosity, most of the folks on this thread have also voiced the same request( they shall remain anonymous ) .

If funds are insufficient,then we'll start up a collection! (seriously though, if you have a cellphone, it likely has a video option or perhaps someone in your dojo has a videocam.) we are becoming a visual-medium oriented society.

Heck, I'll come and film you at the dojo...

Quote:

I guarantee you won't be able to "see" what I'm doing. Can you see where weight is transferred from ground to hands, or where force is directed across gaps from hara to point of connection? I don't think so....





But then, how is it that you can see my video and criticize, but I can't ?

aw, come on, let's have a look..after all that elaborate talk, ya gotta show us , now's the time to shine ! .don't be shy...we're all friends here...,we want to see past that gruff exterior.. maybe you'll be the next Steven Segal....

Mark.

(dont forget to take this all with a grain of salt!

Top
#345606 - 06/19/07 12:13 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

No, I'm sure I'll be able to see what I need to see.




Well, tell me Mark, if I change from doing an aiki-jujutsu technique to aikido technique or vice-versa, will you be able to pick that suttle change out?... or maybe if I use a chin-na grip and lock and reverse it to an aikido throw? Perhaps if Eyrie or I simply "did what we do" are you sure you'd even understand what was going on? I seriously doubt it.

Effective application means something... and it isn't how "smooth" you look on youtube, or how "bada$$" you can appear "doing Aikido". Effective application is a real world art.

Something I noticed in one of your videos was how scrambled one of your black belts looked trying to get up after being thrown. Now, to me, that indicates either a lack of ukemi skills or lack of their effective application of them. It doesn't take an Aikido master to fall down and get up, but even my worst students do it in one motion most of the time, unless it's a breakfall. Even then, they spin and recover their position defensively.

The maxim in our training is "hit me... if you can"... so when an attacker is giving us a gripping attack, they are also attempting to hit us in the face, so our technique has to both "do" the Aikido technique as well as keep us from getting hit. I didn't see any of that in your video... what I saw was "polite" Aikido step throughs with compliant "attackers". Now, there's nothing wrong with doing Aikido that way, it just isn't the way Eyrie or I do it.

Just as a curiosity, what kind of karate training do you have? Judo? Jujutsu? Chin Na? What technique would you recommend against Isshin Ryu karate attacks? Shotokan? How would you protect yourself against a side-separation throw? What defense would you use against a triangle arm lock? EFFECTIVE Aikido application has to be able to defend against all those things... now the big question... Do you train against those?.. or do you simply train against the shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, katatori, katatetori attacks of Aikido?

You see, I'm not even really an "Aikido" guy... I'm a jujutsu guy... but I've got 23 years of Aikido training. Why... simple... I have to have the information to use against someone attempting to use Aikido on me.

How does your Aikido work when you're injured? If you take a good, hard kick to the outer leg, how will your technique work? How will you do Aikido if you have a torn rotator cuff during a fight? What techniques will you revert to using if your mobility is crushed, or you're jammed into a corner with no room for movement? Have you ever done randori with live knife blades?

What you fail to understand is more than you understand about Aikido (not meant as a personal attack, just an observation) simply because you do not understand "effective application". It isn't "cross training"... it's training against those things you will encounter in the real world... and I can't remember the last time somebody attacked me with a shomenuchi or yokomenuchi in a fight... if ever.

Sorry I don't have a video for you, but if I did, you wouldn't know what was going on because it would be expansions of other arts into Aikido or the use of Aikido to expand them. It isn't a linear equation... it's cumulative, and the variations are endless. You would be constantly saying "that's not how we do it"... and I would certainly hope so...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#345607 - 06/19/07 12:34 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
We've recently moved North, so (at the moment) there is no dojo... only the front yard or back yard (6 acres of it). There are no students at the moment, only my 2 boys, but hopefully that will change soon (as soon as this infernal rain moves to where it's needed most - i.e. not here).

Alas, I don't have vid cam on my mobile. We're also in a cell phone black spot, so I can't really justify a new mobile phone anyway. But hey, donations are more than welcome...

How can I see what you are doing and you can't? Simple. Because what you are doing is "external" aikido. I have seen enough to know that what I'm doing is very different from what "looks" like an external technique. My aikido looks nothing like what you're doing.

The invitation for you (or anyone else) is always open. I have extended open invites to various folk on this forum. I apologize in advance for the lack of a proper dojo, but since we're all "martial artists" and friends here, a bit of hard ground wouldn't hurt would it? If not, we can always find a soft patch of grass in amongst the mimosa and horse [censored] for you to roll if you like.

So, by all means, make the trip and come film me... I don't have much to offer except my hospitality, cold beers in the fridge, good food in your belly and a very different perspective on aiki training.

Top
#345608 - 06/19/07 12:39 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
Gentleman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 5
Quote:

Don't drink the kool aid! Aikido developed using the up and down motions of swordfighting, and the jujutsu techniques connected to several systems that are currently known as aiki-jujutsu... so if you don't think Aikido looks like other martial arts, you need to see "other martial arts".




I don't believe I was speaking to Aikido's appearance. Form is an illusion. I was making a comment on how Aikidoist try to harmonize with antagonists; whether they be on the street or on the Web.

Quote:

As for sparring, it is called randori in Aikido, and it is an integral part of the training (if you know what you're doing). It works up from "single attacker" randori to multiple attackers, and attackers with weapons as your skills improve... up to and including "tachi tori" (sword-taking techniques)... but you're right... no sparring with gloves and kick pads.




The Randori practiced in a traditional Aikido School is not sparing. Randori is not a back and forth exchange. Ukes are not trying to counter Nage. Instead Ukes are there as constant attackers so that Nage can learn to let go and just move.

Quote:

As for contests of strength, Aikido was constantly tested against other types and styles of martial arts. The prohibition against "contests" in Aikido was more designed to keep the technique intact, rather than having it changed to fit the "rules" of contest. Ueshiba Sensei loved teaching people that his methods and arts were superior to theirs, and did public displays of it all the time.




"If there's shiai (contest), there's always a loser. He's not happy, so he'll get back at you later. So instead of beating a person, winning over yourself (your ego) is harder. So you do keiko shugyo (austere training)." - O'Sensei

Once Aikido was called Aikido and not Aiki-Budo, O'Sensei did not seek out challenges. In fact he only accepted one. In the following link, one of his Uchi Deshi talks about this (11 questions down):

http://www.aikidoonline.com/Archives/NoDate/feat_tkc.html


Quote:

True Budo is the art of killing.




It's different for me. I aspire to follow the ideals of O'Sensei.

“True budo is a work of love. It is a work of giving life to all beings, and not killing or struggling with each other. Love is the guardian deity of everything. Nothing can exist without it. Aikido is the realization of love.” - O'Sensei

I do not wish to get sucked into arguing, so this will be my last post. A flute is not a flute if it doesn't have holes. So Aikido isn't Aikido if there is no Harmony.

Aikidonut, thanks for your reply. Be weary! I have a feeling that some here have no lineage with O'Sensei. If that's so, we can continue these talks at Tiger Shulman's. I hear that they do Aikido too. ;-)

Top
#345609 - 06/19/07 01:11 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Mark, I know it feels like wristtwister and I seem to be ganging up on you. Be assured, we are not. Now wristtwister and I have never met, but we both are on the priority list to visit each other when finances and opportunity presents itself - and when the planets align in an auspicious configuration.

So even though we have never met, there are certain things that people say that only those in the know, will know precisely what the other means or is talking about. It is quite obvious to both of us that you do not.

While I don't have the breadth or depth of wristtwister's experience or years of training, I have trained with some very good people in the past, not just in aikido, but karatejutsu, arnis, TKD, jujitsu and taiji. So I understand precisely where wristtwister is coming from.

Applying (standard technical form) aikido in the first instance against a different system is a completely different ballgame. I know it. I've done it. If anything, it certainly teaches you A LOT about your aikido.

Part of being a good martial artist is being highly flexible (mentally) and adaptable. It is, in essence, the Art of War... where strategies and tactics, and counter tactics count more than simply having "effective" techniques. That's way it's called the martial "arts". Of course, being a good technician is fundamental.

And in response to Gentleman, FWIW, aikido doesn't have the market cornered on harmony and the Art of Peace. All true budo and bujutsu are both the Art of War and the Art of Peace.... but not in the sense of "love, peace and harmony".

Top
#345610 - 06/19/07 11:05 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Eyrie -

If you and Wrist are not capable or amenable to providing comparison vids of yourselves, can you find a representative vid of an aikidoka that does demonstrate the qualities that you are discussing? Or at least demonstrates an aikidoka that possesses said qualities, even if they are not present on that particular vid?

I am interested to see for myself if anyone can tell the difference.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#345611 - 06/19/07 12:33 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
There are so many comments I want to address, but let me keep it brief.
Eyrie, you seem to have an air of honesty about you which I find admirable. However:

Quote:

So even though we have never met, there are certain things that people say that only those in the know, will know precisely what the other means or is talking about. It is quite obvious to both of us that you do not .




I think that perhaps for the purposes of not alienating people in this forum/thread, we should limit our comments by refraining from phrases like , " you have no idea.." ,or "only so and so and i know, and it's obvious you don't . it sounds too much like when our parents would say," why? Because I said so , that's why"

You really truly have no idea what I know. Or where I'm from, or what I've been through.

I believe the name of this forum is "aikido/daito ryu". not "my own style which I have devised from my 50+ years of karate, TKD , jujutsu, chin na etc.." so let's limit discussion to aikido ( teachings of O'sensei ), or Daito Ryu.

I actually like you guys, but let's just keep down the bristliness. looks like we already lost an earnest reader
( gentleman)

and I second Matt J's motion. We are all here to learn and compare notes.

Peace,

Mark

Top
Page 6 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga