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#345572 - 06/13/07 09:08 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I've refrained from jumping in earlier but self-restraint has got the better of me.

I'm totally in agreement with what wristtwister said... especially w.r.t. "Training is training... whatever level you take it to is between you and whoever you train with and their ability."

I only have this to add.

The only true reality check is to go "play" with other martial artists. The rest of it means nothing, only your understanding and ability to apply the principles (of any art) - in any context (combative or otherwise) - that really matters.

For starters, try working your way out of a pin (like juji gatame) - without having something broken. Then try to remain standing as your opponent does his best to take you to the ground - even if it means hanging off you literally.

Or pick on someone bigger, heavier and stronger than you and see whether you can throw them effortlessly or how much you are "muscling" the technique. If you can't "float" them, then go back to "basics".

Everything is technique rooted in principles, right down to the subtlest aspects of where their weight is. If you don't understand this, or even how to transfer your own weight as a means to throw, then go back to basics.

Like wristtwister said, and I agree, the best thing that can happen to YOUR Aikido is to leave the artificial constructs of belt ranks and organizational structure behind and walk your own path. Storm a few dojos... that's when the TRUE learning begins.

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#345573 - 06/14/07 01:24 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

I've refrained from jumping in earlier but self-restraint has got the better of me.




you mean YOU got the better of self restraint,( having finally succumbed to amaking a post ) right?or perhaps you meant your need to jump in got the better of YOU ... that's fine, the more the merrier!

I dont understand what the fuss is all about.... what you and wristwister have said, are essentially the same as what i have already posted... i dont care about belts !!I am not a "black belt" but i've been with the dojo for 12 years. I show up to learn. i would be the first person to not care about belts. I already can put 9 letters after my name, on my letter head, i certainly dont need it to also say "2d dan".... I've already posted this...

I also would love to work out with a judoka, as you are implying, I have "stormed" dojos...when i was just a beginner, a shodan did hard technique on me , and i learned, and i purposely sought him out during class... i am always thinking>> how would this work if i did it harder? but one thing you all dont seem to understand>> doing it hard is no better than doing it "soft"...it's just different.

have you seen my videos? www.youtube.com/dojomania please clip and paste it in the browser window...and,by the way, MY aikido is just fine, thanks anyway. How's YOUR aikido?
all the best

Mark

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#345574 - 06/14/07 02:13 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Despite your adamant protestations, everything about your post indicates that, in the back of your mind, you have some sort of hang up or chip on your shoulder about belt rank, ego, loss of face etc. etc. etc.

Length of time in an art - any art - is certainly no indication of skill or abilities. So your 12 years on the mat or my X years in MA in general means very little until we touch hands.

Quote:

when i was just a beginner, a shodan did hard technique on me , and i learned, and i purposely sought him out during class... i am always thinking>> how would this work if i did it harder? but one thing you all dont seem to understand>> doing it hard is no better than doing it "soft"...it's just different.


Well, no, hard and soft are 2 aspects of the same thing. But there is a distinct difference between being floppy and using muscle and it has nothing to do with your idea of hard or soft. i.e. it's not a dichotomy. Ever heard the phrase "cotton wrapped in steel"?

Quote:

have you seen my videos? ...and,by the way, MY aikido is just fine, thanks anyway. How's YOUR aikido?


I have seen your videos... I'll politely say no comment. As for my aikido... I wouldn't know... maybe you can come find out and tell me... over a beer or two (or a carton).

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#345575 - 06/14/07 04:32 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: eyrie]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I dont understand, how you can say i have a " chip" , by reading my post and concluding it's from the back of my mind... I'd have to say sometimes I don't know what's in the back of my mind!

As for my video, you can read the thread i have on it,"a video of my dojo" , and also comments from current moderators, interpersed throughout..also please see the comment on my videos in the Martial arts talk forum, comments from a moderator...you'll be the first non positive comment, but that's OK, ..Certainly if you have any constructive criticisms, that don't come from anger and dislike, I'd be happy to review it.

let's just agree to disagree, and leave it alone.


I hope for all the best to you in your MA practice.

Mark

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#345576 - 06/14/07 06:51 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Call it intuition....

I haven't made any comment (or am I going to) because I frankly have nothing nice to say about it. No amount of peer back-slapping or chest thumping is going to change anything, least of all your ability to apply your understanding of aiki in a different context.

IIRC, the video was mostly of other people and not you, so I can't honestly make any fair comment. In any case, the subject of your video in this thread is somewhat off-topic.

In terms of effective application there's only 2 variables to consider - you and the other person....

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#345577 - 06/14/07 10:18 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Aikidonut, where are you located?

I watched some of your video posting, and most of what I saw was a "polite" Aikido school... nobody really going hard. I'll reserve judgement on whether or not there are skills there, because all I saw was "polite practice"... kihon step throughs, and no threat.

Nobody doing henke-waza or much real blending... because nobody was moving fast enough to blend or change techniques.
I'm not being critical, just observant. Post some of the randori, and it will tell more of the story.

My partner and I are always telling students "you're being too polite" during practice, and I'm afraid I'd have that tape running all the time at your place. You simply haven't put up enough information to show what they've got.

Get your black belts to do some randori and post that so we can see... we promise not to tell any of their secrets...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345578 - 06/15/07 12:34 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I'm in NY, long island, wristtwister. you 're right, i understand your comments. i'll find some more randori... actually i have a video of sensei doing randori, and me throwing a sandan, it's on www.brightcove.com/aikidonut
I understand you're not being critical, and your comments are entirely welcome ..that's why i put up the video. to get honest remarks,because sincerely constructive comments are great, they open up my practice and understanding. I might have contributed to the slowness, by showing many of the techniques in slow motion, please look at the randori on the brightcove website, and let me know. I've had my shoulder dislocated, once doing a breakfall for sensei, out of a kokyu throw. one nidan who started out with sensei , and migrated to yamada, and donovan waite ( was uchi deshi for donovan) said that although yamada and waite are superb , in his words, " Eddie ( Hagihara) just walks right through you. " but these are only words, and you'd get the real feel, ( obviously, i don't have to tell you) if you come on over. www.LIAIKIKAI.com Or come over the non- digital way, SC ain't so far away. BTW are you close to myrtle beach? absolutely beautiful there..

are you aikikai, yoshinkan,tomiki, ASU,or ki society? .
Yamada and Hagihara were the among the first two sensei ( plural ?) who established the new york aikikai back in 1960s. Hagihara ( our sensei, the one in the video) had the green tea ceremony with O'sensei, in 1969, just before Ueshiba passed away. Ueshiba's words to him were "bring my aikido to the world." He was also tohei sensei's primary uke, before the split ,after O'sensei's passing.

sometimes i think i shouldn't have put up the video, it has created some misunderstandings. You may be right we might have been too "polite" to each other , but i feel that the scenes of Hagihara throwing Adam were definitely NOT polite.If you fall wrong from that throw, that's a broken neck, or at the very least a forearm in the face.. When I had started to video them, sensei was unavailable, so I only showed the immediate crew, Adam, who is 3d dan, and rich, who is shodani only have a little footage of sensei as he was in the hospital at the time.i was anxious to try out my newfound video interest. but please, i'm repeating , have a look at the randori. and i will put up more current randori. I'm making a video, that will have Shihan Hagihara's full blessing , so this new video will really be his expression of his concept of aikido, and I'd love to hear your thoughts after that one comes out. I plan to film him within the next few weeks, so that video might be available to you soon.

oh, and BTW, do you have any video of your dojo? I'd also like to compare.

be well,

Mark

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#345579 - 06/15/07 01:10 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I've seen the brightcove vids once before... but I'd thought I'd watch them again to be sure what my first impressions were the first time.

The video effects tend to down play the technical points - meaning it was difficult to discern the finer, subtle points of people's movement, particularly your sensei Hagihara (which I feel is vitally important if you want to be really good at MA).

From what I saw of you from 0:59-1:05, too much in the shoulders and not enough from the ground and center. i.e. too much upper body muscling involved. I would relax the shoulders, remain grounded and redirect uke's forces and movement from center.

Watch how Hagihara does it... he is relaxed in the upper body, and when he lifts his arm, it is being lifted by his center. The hakama hides what his feet and knees are doing, but I would be guessing he's got them planted when he stops and draws power from the ground). The other difference is that the intent is different... he uses his hand like a sword. Everyone else's intent is different... kinda like trying to put "hard" intent into the movement, but not quite the same as cutting with intent to "open" uke. Big difference here.

WRT the "standard" techniques, I saw nothing out of the ordinary which stood out. But then, I'm not looking at "technique" as such. I'm looking at really basic things like footwork, posture, connection, glimpses of internal states which tell me far more about how "good" someone is, rather than how "good" their "technique" looks.

(You wanted constructive criticism, you got it).

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#345580 - 06/15/07 05:26 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I'd like to say first that I'm not trying to flame. Some recent discussion with Aikidonut and mild arguing with Oldman has made me consider looking into aikido or at least broadening my knowledge of it.




Hi
I reached the same conclusion.


Quote:


Looking on youtube reminded me of an old drill I'd seen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreuuPm24UI, where two Aikidoka were attempting to work against striking. I'd like to know the forums opinion on the drill. Personally I have reservations stemming from the quality of the "boxer," but I like the direction that the drill points in.




The drill to me looks ok. The people taking part I think would need an expereinced instructor to oversee what they are doing or video the drill then be very critical.
I think both these guys were open to getting hit,headbutted,
kicked and missed chances etc.How would they know they were open? And keep making the same mistakes other than being told or after wards watching the video and being very critical or get some one with more experience to watch and be critical.
Please before I start a flame I take part in this kind of training. I am my own biggest critic with my gaurd being to low or doing or not doing things I should be doing and I am still studying.


Quote:


Second, how many people in the forum spar regularly and at what level of intensity? Do you exclusively work against aikido techniques or is there an attempt to involve other styles? Note that when I say involve other styles, I mean spar against them, not drill against them ala http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc92c9p2nhw&mode=related&search=




I do it as regular as I can.For me to try out new techniques I prefer the low skilled would like to have a go types. The problem is judo guys want to spar as they do in judo. Boxers ditto. The thai boxers I train with are in the main ok with it. Problem is it can some times get out of hand. But to me it can give a big reality check.
The last video of the karate ka and aikido guy I dont buy it. Its to much like acting.Seems like a marketing gimmick.


Quote:


Lastly, how many have cross trained in other styles and how do you consider them to mesh with aikido?




From what I know of aikido(which isnt anyway near as much as some people on this thread know) I think I need to study more aikido/aiki jujitsu/daito ryu and a lot more.
But as has been said there is only one life time.


Edited by jude33 (06/15/07 05:42 AM)

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#345581 - 06/15/07 06:05 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Howdy! because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...something that is easy to say , hard to really learn and put into practice....




Hi
A bruised ego should make a person train harder. If I had a bruised ego then it would have been so so bruised that the only colours left were that of bruising.
Why a bruised ego that bad then a person would lose face?
Its training your doing isnt it? I get knocked about everytime I sparr so do my training partners. Its the reason why they invented gumshields and gloves in boxing to stop major injuries. Mufflers they were called to stop the gentry getting bruised. The working class got injured more than likely because they couldnt afford them in the begginings but that is another story.

Either way getting beat in training shouldnt be a big deal.
Unless its the kind of enviroment that makes some one known as a soft target. In which case maybe a person should train
a distance from where they live.
Just another thing I would like to add. Your lucky to have such good training facilities and good people to train you.
If I were where you are I think I would be taking advantage of the training available.
Just my thoughts

Jude



Edited by jude33 (06/15/07 06:10 AM)

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