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#345562 - 06/07/07 01:28 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by akidonut -

Quote:

but you will not be tested like that so openly on the mat to the point of being pinned, because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...




Wow. Totally disagree with that philosophy. Ego should NEVER be a consideration.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#345563 - 06/07/07 05:42 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I agree with you, Matt. That's wrong on so many different levels I can't begin...

"Loss of face"??? It's a matter of taking a technique to it's conclusion, and if you have "lead", it's going to end up with you on your face. If the black belts are that centered, it means your technique sucks or you're losing the lead at some point.

Rain falls, and whatever it hits on the way down is a matter of inconvenience or redirection to it. Aikido and jujutsu is the same.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345564 - 06/07/07 07:04 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: wristtwister]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
If your defense never fails because of some artificial rule, you will never know what works and doesn't.

If your attack never ends up with you in a pin/neutralized position, you will never know what works and what doesn't either. So what's the point?

You shouldn't be worried about saving face in the training hall because otherwise you might not be able to save your face (or your life) on the street.

Oh, crap! That last sentence sounded way to fortune cookie for me
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
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#345565 - 06/07/07 11:46 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Quote by akidonut -

Quote:

but you will not be tested like that so openly on the mat to the point of being pinned, because of the loss of face which would cause u to practice in the wrong way next time..... ie a bruised ego gets in the way of good practice...




Wow. Totally disagree with that philosophy. Ego should NEVER be a consideration.




firstly, that is not a "philosophy": Descartes, Immanuel Kant, Plato, Hegel, now THAT's philosophy. This was a sentence, a phrase...

therefore, let me rephrase, as it might not have come out as you all seem to have interpreted....

i saw the video where these aikido ?? black belts ( hakama wearers ) are being pinned to the mat, unplanned. my comment was wow, yes i'd like to try that too.to test myself, but if i get allow myself to get pinned to the mat like those black belts like that ( they tried no technique, nothing except they're trying to run away,,... one guy tried an irimi unsuccessfully) i would give up the black belt.i would become a white belt again. and i wouldnt care, if i'm back to square one. I'm not in aikido to get some sort of degree. the only outward show of my accomplishment is ... nothing..

Now i dont see how that translates into this whole ego thing you seem to be picking on. my words were taken out of context, which is why i dont think this "quote" feature is entirely fair, it's like political opponents using sound bites to make their rivals look foolish. read or quote my entire post.

where i practice,my dojo, we adjust the level of technique on the mat to the lower rank. what's wrong with that? i wouldnt pin him to the floor, if i see i already have the advantage, i stop...that way the uke will still like to practice with me...( unless sensei actually called for us to use a pinning technique). and the more the uke/lower rank practices with me, the better i get.... it's a reciprocal thing. so i see a benefit in not pinning him...also we dont pin unless sensei calls for us to pin. actually i'm talking about what they did in that video , which wasnt anything as elegant as "pinnning" it was more like," pull you down to the mat"

i can see that in that video , it was a more uncontrolled situation, and a lot of attackers kept on coming.and bringing the black belt to the mat...my point, perhaps not well phrased enough for the members of this forum, is that there is no need for all that. that is not aikido. i'm surprised they actually put it up on the 'net...they're not afraid of reprimands from USAF or hombu dojo? O'sensei clearly didnt want competition. in my dojo, we can compete a little, you grab me hard, i'll grab you hard too when it's my turn, I'll do a good tough nikyo that'll test your acromioclavicular joint if you just did a tough one on me...a good kotegaeshi, to return your technique,..that 's good honest MA practice, for both nage and uke. but if it causes tempers to flare , I know how to tone it down. maybe" loss of face" is not the best phrase, if i get an advantage in the technique, and i pin uke (when he wasn't expecting it) or use kaeshi waza to reverse nage's technique, and then nage gets thrown by surprise, especially if it wasnt called for by sensei, it would cause loss of face,disruption of the class and sensei's authority,

admit it , please dont gimme that internet zen about martial arts and no ego.i know enough about it,.i've read zen and the art or archery, motorcycle maintenance, hakagure , mumonkan,.. all i'm saying is that call it what you will .loss of face, embarrassment, pride, i will not make u feel uncomfortable with me on the mat.you can translate that , then into: "i will not make you feel embarrassed, "lose face" because i want you to keep coming back to practice with me, i want you to voluntarily pick me as your partner.. but i will also not allow you to get away with bad technique... that's the balance i try to strike with my uke while on the mat...and that's the conundrum of honest MA practice : when to back off , when to insist...when to teach, when to learn...

dont forget , aikido comes from Japan, a country that is obsessed with loss of face.... look at the intricate bowing etiquette they use.. and why do you bow onto the mat? show respect to O'sensei, sensei the dojo... if ya don't what happens? loss of face...the dojo loses face, you lose face .... so I don't "totally disagree" with that.

anyway, let's try to also write that way. with the intent of
keeping the poster or the reader engaged,and not pushed away. don't forget , writing on an internet forum is not the same as a face to face non digital converstaion between people...

peace. let's keep up the dialog.


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#345566 - 06/08/07 10:44 AM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Then we will agree to disagree. My point is that if you are interested in furthering the application skill of your martial art - whatever it may be - then considerations of 'face' or 'ego' will only hinder you.

Instructors need to know that they are not unbeatable. Students need to know what it is like to have someone really resist them. Everything else just gets in the way.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#345567 - 06/08/07 12:50 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: MattJ]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
I always emphasize this.

If your not training with resistance, your not training.
you might as well watch a dvd
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#345568 - 06/08/07 02:24 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Viator]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
the 2 guys were just wrestling. they looked tough and all, but that most certainly was NOT aikido. if the boxer wears gloves that cuts down on a lot aikido techniques, ie, cant do nikyo sankyo kotegaeshi,...also when they went down, they were allowed to come right back up... again not aikido as a pin / lock ( nikyo finish) should have been achieved b4 letting uke go free. please, dont think that's aikido! aikido is a lot more than that, so it's a misrepresentation to say that's aikido.

i do agree with having to do some sort of resistance tarining, and what they're doing is interesting, and good if these guys are navy seals about to go to iraq or something, .. the benefit is limited to training for real situations, but there's a lot more to it than that in our aikido dojo...

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#345569 - 06/12/07 05:50 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: aikidonut]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Aikidonut, this is in the interest of dialog, please don't take this as a personal attack. But I think that yours is an interesting and well established viewpoint in most of the Aikido community and I'd like to share mine.

Quote:

i can see that in that video , it was a more uncontrolled situation, and a lot of attackers kept on coming.and bringing the black belt to the mat...my point, perhaps not well phrased enough for the members of this forum, is that there is no need for all that. that is not aikido.




I'm not sure why you feel this isn't Aikido. In any martial art there is a 'need for all that'. I think Aikido is thought of so negativly by other martial artist's because there isn't enough of this kind of training.

Quote:

i'm surprised they actually put it up on the 'net...they're not afraid of reprimands from USAF or hombu dojo?




Well, that's an interesting point. And I guess practioners of Aikido are going to have to decide what they want out of their training. Do they want to continue in this overly aesthetic dance, which is currently called Aikido? Or do they want to actually learn how to use it in a real situation? I'm actually working on research now for a paper on how some forms of Aikido are begining to share more in common with a folk dance than with martial arts. Many folk dances have martial qualities to them, but are most certainly not martial arts. I fear Aikido is also going this route.

I'm not even sure what the USAF or Hombu would say about these drills (that's what they are after all, drills)? Certainly this is not any more competitive than other Aikido randori. The only diffirence is that the people rushing in are actually trying to take the person down! They aren't trying to 'pin them' they are rushing in and grabing them and trying to pull them down to the ground.

What I think would have made these videos better is if they continued on the ground using the newaza (kneeling) techniques. It's amazing how these can actually work in situations like the ones depicted (no, not against Royce Gracie).

It mystifies me everytime I hear 'the newaza techniques are there to build your legs'. There are better ways to build you legs. Or they are there so you can focus on your upper body. Or they come from Daito Ryu, when this was a palace art, and attacks had to be stoped while on your knees. All of these may be true. But they are also a valuable technique to used when being pulled onto the ground, and work quite often. I successfully used they against those trained in BJJ and Judo. They don't always work, but they give you an option. What's sad is that the use of these techniques is becoming lost due to the unrealistic training occuring at so many dojos.

If the USAF or Hombu take issue with drills such as this, I would have to question why? I'd like to take issue with the hombu for a moment if I may. How can someone be ranked first, second, third, or eigth dan without ever having to repel an actual attack using Aiki?

Quote:

O'sensei clearly didnt want competition.




I think this concept has been blown out of proportion since his death. I certainly agree that he did not want Aikido to become some kind of spectator sport. However, look at the footage of him, especially as a younger man. Those people are trying to take him down. Sumo wrestlers, Judoka, Kendoists, all challenged him and he accepted. Is this not competing? How many Aikidoka would reply to these type of challenges, rather than falling back on the tired excuse of 'there is no competion in Aikido'? Very few. And that's probably one of the main reasons why no one will reach his level.

I think Ueshiba-Sensei was speaking more in terms of mindset: that when one encounters physical violence, either mock or real, there shouldn't be any thought of winning or losing.

Quote:

"i will not make you feel embarrassed, "lose face" because i want you to keep coming back to practice with me, i want you to voluntarily pick me as your partner..




Why would someone be embarrased if dropped to the mat, or if a good punch connects? Why would they lose face? Isn't it better for this to happen in the controled environment of the dojo than on the street?

Aiki only functions because of mindset, beacause of intent. If you can't take a somewhat realistic attack in training and not be embarrased, how will it be on the street when you get sucker punched? Will you be like so many others and allow your training to fly out the window? My thoughts? That's exactly what will happen, unless you get used to real attacks with resistance.

Quote:

the 2 guys were just wrestling. they looked tough and all, but that most certainly was NOT aikido.




YES, it was Aikido. It was Aikido against resistance. As they improve, if will begin to look more and more like the waza. First they have to lose thier fear. Fear makes you react with muscle rather than movement.

If I had to put my money on who would be more likely to use their Aiki on the street, these guys or a 9th dan who has never been challenged? My money is on these guys.

Just as getting caught up in randori too early can lead to negative results, so can being overly concerned with aesthetics in your mid-career training. At some point you need to let your body become free to react and let what you've learned come out of you naturally, against unexpected, realistic, resistive attacks.

Quote:

i saw the video where these aikido ?? black belts ( hakama wearers ) are being pinned to the mat, unplanned. my comment was wow, yes i'd like to try that too.to test myself, but if i get allow myself to get pinned to the mat like those black belts like that ( they tried no technique, nothing except they're trying to run away,,... one guy tried an irimi unsuccessfully) i would give up the black belt.i would become a white belt again.




This is actually what made me write this reply. This is exactly the wrong mindset. The way you make it sound, all your training is useless if you get taken to the mat. I have bad news for you: it's going to happen! It doesn't mean you don't 'deserve the black belt'. It means you still have something to learn. You're judgeing these people without actually trying this yourself. Have two people, preferably people your size, with no martial arts training, stand 6 feet from you and rush you. Tell them to take you down. Let them keep trying. See how it goes.

After that, you can continue with people more experianced. Keep working, keep improving.

To be honest, I hope that all Aikidokas do drills like this. Especially black belts. And when they are taken down, I hope it reminds them that a belt is just a piece of fabric, and we should all be white belts at heart: we should always be trying to learn. Always going into terrain that makes us uncomfortable, scares us a little. And learning how to deal with it, little by little, until we are comfortable there. That's when we'll BEGIN to express true harmony with our opponent. That's my understanding of Budo. I may be wrong.

My two cents.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (06/12/07 06:02 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#345570 - 06/12/07 09:56 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Ames]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I hate to take this tact on the discussion, but you guys talk all day without saying anything. First of all, I don't think anybody can read what was in O'sensei's mind, and he took challenges all the time. If you think surrendering your belt if you get pinned is an acknowledgement of something, try my tact... don't ever take any rank in Aikido. Then, you can learn and don't worry about whether or not you touch the mats. As far as I know, everybody gets thrown in Aikido, and if you are taken down in randori, it's just part of the drill. Every high ranking player I've ever trained with has hit the mats right along with the rest of us unless they were injured.

As for "becoming in harmony with my opponent", I only want to be in harmony with him long enough to splatter him all over the mats. If we're training, it's with restraint... if its for self defense, he's on his own.

I've been training in Aikido since 1984, and have done hard training a lot of times... repeated hours of koshi waza, shihonage, etc. and literally left my being on the mats... so it's not a disgrace to be there... it's a learning experience. If you're thrown and have high rank, it's a high-level learning experience.

I don't really care what organizations think of what I do... they're there to organize and garner power and money from something I do for love of the art. If they're truly "guarding the art", they'll understand that all they have to do to find out my motives behind something is to ask.

The "superhero" suit comes after you become invincible, and in 45 years of training, I haven't met that guy yet. Training is training... whatever level you take it to is between you and whoever you train with and their ability. You can't do godan training with white belts, and you can't teach nanadan techniques to green belts and expect them to do it well.

There's an awful lot of "defining" of what Aikido actually is done here, and it's whatever you can make of it using the techniques and principles of Aikido. It's individual with every person training in it, and their ability to transfer it to others is a measure of their teaching ability... not necessarily their skills.

Anything that organizations have to offer is full of politics, personal challenges to power, attempts to "rule" others, and "submissive" recognition of ability... so measuring your art by what some organization says, is always asking if what you're doing is okay with somebody else. Whatever happened to being your own man? You don't have to challenge authority to live under it, and you don't have to fall over dead when somebody that outranks you says to... Train to learn... teach to share... live to improve the world around you. Do that, and your Aikido will take care of itself.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#345571 - 06/12/07 11:47 PM Re: Aikido: Effective Application [Re: Ames]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
Chris, thanks for the well thought out post. I plan to re read it and reply to your finer points later. just as a preliminary,

firstly, of course , i would not take this as a personal attack, if it's well worded, as yours is, and certainly you have your right to your opinion and to voice it. if you didnt , there wouldnt be any dialog.

that being said, i feel i must reply.
I am a great fan of "testing ' my skills on the mat. I actually have, with some of my friends : I was once showing my childhood buddy the mat i had constructed ( i was proud of it, had a sailmaker sew the canvas, used double density foam, etc) in the basement, when he lunged at me all of a sudden. He caught me off balance, we went to the ground. but before i hit the mat, i stayed on my knees, and grabbed his shirt lapels, and proceeded to throw him, doing a kokyu nage. he was heavy , 200 lbs,and didnt move at first, but then my throw was pretty strong, so I wound up ripping his shirt, and bringing him down to the mat. I felt i was about to be in full control of the situation, when he called it off. we both went upstairs , sheepishly, because his beautiful Ralph Lauren polo shirt was completely in shreds. Our wives ( now she's my ex-wife) looked at us, and reacted in disgust. "You boys cant play in the sandbox , huh? blah blah blah..so i stopped trying to test my art on friends.
I admit, it was fun in retrospect. so yes, this aikidoka has tested himself. I was also involved in a street confrontation, which i have described before, so I won't bore you with the details, except to say , i threw that guy with irimi nage, and he turned and ran away. after he hit the pavement. hard.

since those two incidents, i havent tested it, but would love to again. but i love the art, and am happy just diong what i do.

now with respect to those guys who were trying to bring the aikido guy down onto the mat ... this was still not a real situation, because, the aikido guy let them grab him..... in my real life street fight, i didnt wait for that to happen.... i went right at the guy with all i had. i also gave him a sidekick that explored the inner reaches of his pancreas. ... so i feel it is a delusion to think that is realistic practice... it is not... it was a friendly wrestling match....you cannot translate that into a real world situation. and you cant say that it's closer to a real world situation than what we do in aikido... is pizza with pepperoni more delicious than spaghetti? is Mozart more melodious than beethoven? is judo better than aikido?

is it better to physicall resist and challenge someone, or just to do aikido and learn graciously from sensei, without triying to smear someone all over the mat??
see my point ? you can only say it's a real life situation if it IS a real life situation... someone on the street wants to kill you or hurt you badly....and THAT will never hapen in any dojo, whether it's BJJ, aikido, jujitsu , TKD or folk dancing... they all have some relation to a streetfight, but none are the complete picture.... it's all or none...like quantum mechanics...a 400 foot fly ball out ( aplogies to non baseball enthusiasts)is the same as a 390 fly ball out.... they both were not homeruns.

that having been said, i still would like to test my skills in a resistance, but non street fighting situation. it shows another facet of the art. but i will not think that by doing resistance will i be closer to having proficiency in a streetfight, than doing my li'l ol' aikido dojo stuff.

i've said it b4, i do not train all those hours on the mat to save myself from that one godawful moment when i have to realy use it on the steret. that would take all the fun out of it.... let's see, I'm doing ikkyo from a wrist grab so that i can do it on my heretofore unseen attacker...i cant think like that all the time on the mat! isnt it boring, isn't it like living you r life in perpetual fear of that one possible attacker in the future??


Mark.

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