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#345204 - 07/23/07 07:27 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzcUfnGJyI

I'm not sure if you call it kosa dachi or not, the position that occurs at 26 and 28 seconds. The practitioner crosses his legs, weight sunk while blocking on the reverse side then kicking.

This seems to me like one helluva telegraph, there's not much else he can do from that position other than kick. Not to mention how weak his balance must be while trying to recieve the weight of an attack (I know he's supposed to deflect without taking the weight, but he's got high hopes if he thinks he can do that everytime).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36pI7IRLqFs

As you can see in the shotokan version a stable balanced shoulder width stance is maintained throughout the sequence meaning that the reverse side shoulder is always bolstered by the rear leg and any kind of movement can be made as opposed to just kick.

Can anyone explain why Nagimine changed the more structurally and combatively sound front stance to this less balanced cross legged posture?
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#345205 - 07/23/07 08:53 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Changed? There is no change. This is the old way. One, this is a defense to a groin kick by trapping the leg either on its way up or after it connects (to give you time to recover while he gets his leg out). As you tie up the leg you also tie up the arms. It is also tai sabaki with a leg tech. It is not just a kick but the kosa dachi implies a knee strike before the kick. I don't know about Shotokan, but in Matsubayashi our "stances" are not static and we don't "stay" in a stance or "fight" from a stance, but flow through them. This is the softness that becomes hard in shorin ryu. Block soft and strike hard. Or sometimes block hard and strike soft.

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#345206 - 07/24/07 06:57 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Quote:

Changed? There is no change. This is the old way.



As evidenced by?
It's easy to bandy about conjecture and believe comfortable assumptions, but just know that from now on I will challenge any such conjecture until someone produces evidence to back up their claims.

Quote:

One, this is a defense to a groin kick by trapping the leg either on its way up or after it connects (to give you time to recover while he gets his leg out).




Roshambo anyone? I'd have to see this in action to put any faith in it, but I'm sure it works for you.

Quote:

I don't know about Shotokan,



Good of you to admit as much.
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#345207 - 07/24/07 07:16 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

As evidenced by?
It's easy to bandy about conjecture and believe comfortable assumptions, but just know that from now on I will challenge any such conjecture until someone produces evidence to back up their claims.




No proof, just Nagamine's lineage and his commitment to the preservation of classical okinawan karate. Just as there is no proof that Funakoshi did what he did nor studied with whom he studied with. Did he really study with Itosu and Asato for all those years, or for just one or two, fabricated a story and used it to gain noteriety in Japan? This may explain why Motobu states he never heard of Funakoshi when he was in Okinawa. Now my point is not to question Funakoshi's writings, but it is to remind you that the only thing we know for sure is what we have seen with our own eyes and what we have personally experienced. Actually I think you are on to something. I may start challenging a thing or two myself.

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#345208 - 07/25/07 06:13 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Now my point is not to question Funakoshi's writings, but it is to remind you that the only thing we know for sure is what we have seen with our own eyes and what we have personally experienced.




Finally, now we are getting somewhere

Honestly I couldn't care less about linneage, history or any of that crap (and it is crap; the refuse of more than a century of fanaticism and tribalism banqueting on mythology). My interests lie in what we have before us not what might have been.

The thing is Karate discussions seem always to be muddied by some vague notion of originality or authenticity that is all based on conjecture. This thread is entitled Funakoshi and modifications and yet there is no evidence at all that Funakoshi modified anything other than a few names and maybe some teaching practices.

Simply put we do not know and we will never know just what went on in Okinawa and Japan 100 years ago. We have nothing but our faith that what we practice now is any older than the person currently teaching us, or that it hasn't its self been changed innumerable times to get to where it is today. The only reason Shotokan is picked on is because it is the single best documented Karate system around and thus it gives people more to examine.

This is why the final debate that Ed brought up was an interesting one for me (and why med, I enjoy alot of your contributions) despite an obvious bias: It's about what we do, not who did what.
I would discuss all day openly and freely the differences between all the systems of Karate represented on this forum, the things that make them unique, the things they have in common, the things that work in fighting and the things that would take a miracle to pull off just for the sake of exchanging ideas. But someone always has to be better and since we cant fight how best should we do that? History, linneage, authenticity. Some even try and argue body mechanics. Its a wonderful argument until you realise that often unless you've spent a long time training in something you just won't get how it works because it is all in the doing not the talking.

It is the man and his mind that matter, not his style of MA and certainly not what someone with an agenda made up about that styles history.
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