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#345194 - 07/13/07 06:42 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Shotokans version of the pinan shodan kata that should have read.

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#345195 - 07/13/07 08:11 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Its hard to compare Matsubayashi Naihanchi to that of Fuankoshi since Matsubayashi's Naihanchi are of a lineage seperate from Itosu's. Again, it is more like comparing the difference between karate from Shuri(Funakoshi) and that of Tomari(Matsubayashi). Although the techniques may be similar, their execution is very different. Much of Matsubayashi's kata uses the old way karate was practiced in Tomari. This is largely due to Nagamine's early teachers, such as Iha Kodatsu, top student of Kosaku Matsumora.

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#345196 - 07/13/07 08:34 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Barad]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Barad,
In the second illustration there are two reasons why the arm is up. First some people are so literal that if I drew it in a downward position someone is guaranteed to say "Thats not what the form looks like"

Now the practical reason from my perspective...

If you are grabbed by the shoulder from behind you do not automatically know which hand is grabbing you and if the other hand is coming at your head.

If you imagine that the attacked in the second drawing grabs
with his right hand rather than the left, most likely he will be punching you with his other hand.

raising both hands is natural and is an instinctive way of protecting the head. That happens whether or not a person is trained. When you are practicing kata you often strengthening and refining your natural reflex mechanisms to response purposfully and with power in a way that is not based on thought. It's not "He grabs me so I'll do this then this then this. It's more "Holy $hit Bam BAM BAM"

About kokutsudachi I don't know japanese terminology so you lost me. Again they are just drawings of ideas and not so literal.
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#345197 - 07/13/07 08:38 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Its hard to compare Matsubayashi Naihanchi to that of Fuankoshi since Matsubayashi's Naihanchi are of a lineage seperate from Itosu's. Again, it is more like comparing the difference between karate from Shuri(Funakoshi) and that of Tomari(Matsubayashi). Although the techniques may be similar, their execution is very different. Much of Matsubayashi's kata uses the old way karate was practiced in Tomari. This is largely due to Nagamine's early teachers, such as Iha Kodatsu, top student of Kosaku Matsumora.




Hi Medulant.
Thats interesting. I thought from my studies that tomari-te was no longer in existance? It had been incorperated into shuri-te. Anyway its good to know it still exists. I shall look harder at the style. It seems from the little that I have observed to be very fast, almost whipping and agile. Some stances very high. A lot of emphasis on the hips and rising in stances such as naihanchi etc.

Jude

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#345198 - 07/13/07 10:27 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: jude33]
WuXing Offline
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Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
the only really shuri te kata in Matsubayashi Ryu is Gojushiho (Nagamine learned from Kyan who learned it from Matsumura/Itosu), and pinan of course from Itosu. The rest are from the tomari side of the lineage, either through Kodatsu Iha or Kyan (who's teachers were mainly tomari men, Matsumora and Oyadomari and Maeda). Chatan Yara no Kusanku, Oyadomari no Passai, Wanshu, Wankan, Rohai, Kyan's Chinto (which he learned from Matsumora).

On the Okinawan Karate site, they actually give Matsubayashi Ryu as the example of tomari te.
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/index.html

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#345199 - 07/14/07 06:34 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

1Karate-do Is not the same as the shotokan of today,& There's a prettyygood chance that we may never know what Funakoshi's karatedo again. That's a positive.

2 Funakoshi, never sparred a day in his life,& In his lifetime niether did his students,until sometime after his death.

3 Funakoshi's,bunkai was lacking when he came to japan,& I'm speculating that's why he went back to Okinawa.

4 Before funakoshi transferred/taught the he himself learned in Okinawa,They were more combative,but what he taught these same kata's in Japan they became recreational.

However, Funakoshi's students IMO made shotokan more aggressive ,they still named the style in honor of there teacher,As Shoto was his pen name.

Quote:

In Funaokshi Ginchin's place I don't think he left one thing out.




He left out plenty,but i'd say it was for political reasons though.





Just my thoughts.
Quote
After Master Funakoshi's death in 1957, Shigeru Egami began his mission trying to change Karate's ill reputation as a "deadly martial art", something O-sensei tried to do all his life. His idea was to clearly state that Karate-do is a fight against yourself, with self-sacrifice, thus the philosophical and didactic aspects of the art could be used and complement all other life activities. The essential concept was self-fulfillment, above the fighting abilities. (Even so, one must not think Master Egami was a lousy technician nor a low level budoka, quite the contrary). As a direct consequence of this concept, Shigeru Egami sensei eliminated many concepts about victory in combat, replacing them with the search of physical harmony and an equilibrium of the human being through the practice of Karate-do.

http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/bios/egamieng.html



Founder of the Wado-Ryu style, sensei Ohtsuka began martial arts training at six in Shindo Yoshin-Ryu Jujutsu, a traditional Japanese martial art form which modern judo was derived. By 1921, at the relatively young age of 29, he was awarded the coveted menkyo-kaiden, designating him the successor as master of this style. A year later he began karate training under Gichin Funakoshi, the man who introduced karate to Japan from Okinawa. He became one of Funakoshi's senior students but eventually traveled to Okinawa to learn more deeply of karate from masters who had instructed Funakoshi. It was his belief that Funakoshi had over-simplified and over-modified several karate techniques and katas in the interests of teaching large groups of beginners. Sensei Ohtsuka combined his new knowledge of karate with several of his own adaptations from Japanese Bushido (the way of the warrior) martial arts to form Wado-Ryu karate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FxRfd_0mYs&mode=related&search=


Is shotokai more or less how funokoshi practiced his art?
It looks as though you are correct.


Im not knocking shotokan. I still think it has some good stuff in it. Just looking at the hows and whys.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/14/07 06:40 AM)

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#345200 - 07/16/07 06:35 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

one intepretation I have for the opening of pinan sho is this: offlining to the outside an attack from the front using simultaneous guard and overhand jab to the head followed immediately with pulling the head down into an uppercut. this all applies nearly at clinch-range without pause - one motion.

kokutsu dachi for a close-in app like that, doesn't make sense. doesn't make sense to use a grounded structure when off-lining or parrying. grounded structure is best only right at the .01 second of striking impact.

so the neko-ashii dachi is only during the offline strike - the grounded weight drop happens during the guided uppercut.

soften the target...then drop it.





Ed, I'm having trouble visualising this.
If understand you someone is attacking from the front with a left punch.
Defender parries with the right while hoping right? and jabs with the left at the attacker in cat stance?
Then grabs head and pulls it into a right uppercut.

Not sure if this is precisely what you mean but I got up and gave it a try. The cat stance did feel slightly more comfortable than the back stance so I can concede for the particular movement type your talking about cat stance is probably better.

However I plan on illustrating where kokutsudachi can be used in the same way and what the actual difference is between them, although you can see from what Barad and I described there is a simple difference in the prefered use of the stances.


The equivalent "offlining" application using the back stance (of which I am quite fond) goes like this:
Attacker comes in from the front with a big left punch
Defender raises a right age uke to parry
at the same time he raises a left ude uke to clear the punch and grab the upper arm (shirt sleeve etc).
At the same time, step past the attack to the outside, turning into a left short back stance facing the opponents body,
OR Depending how close they are and how deep they have punched,
Step out to the side a few inches with the right foot and turn into a left back stance.

(As you can see all these steps happen at once but it's far less complicated than it seems. Just perform H2's opening move by pivoting on the left foot and moving the right).

Once you are out of the way of the punch go straight into the uppercut (one continuous movement) to the kidney's/floating rib/side of the neck/face.

Comparing the two I found cat stance was more comfortable for using the lead hand to attack, back stance was more comfortable for using the reverse hand. Earlier I mentioned that one of the main uses of kokutsudachi was to use the lead hand to parry and control in close while the reverse hand dropped bombs, this is an example of it.

I can certainly see the appeal of the cat stance method though, it is much easier to use as far as offlining goes. Not so good for slipping though. Apples and oranges.

Med, is your Pinan sho opening application the same as Ed's?
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#345201 - 07/16/07 03:38 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med, is your Pinan sho opening application the same as Ed's?




If he is still doing Matsubayashi Pinan then yes it is, more or less. The first move in Pinan Shodan is using tai sabaki and shifting off line and inside. It can be to the ouside, or directly inside. You parry an attack as you close distance and either strike with the back fist, or use the chest block to block a second incoming strike. The then head block either upper cuts the head or underhooks the opponents arm if you are inside. If you are outside its like a shovel hook/uppercut combo to the ribs/kidneys. One reason for cat stance is also a potential front kick to the inner thigh/groin or knee strike to the stomack, groin, inner/outer thigh. I like to call it tenderizer. I like use it on all my meat.

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#345202 - 07/16/07 06:07 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Funny you should mention the kick as in my analysis both cat and back stance are designed to signify the use of kick when found in kata. I find the two techniques become even more alike when you start looking at them in this way.

I basically look at it like this: Back stance signifies a very low kick to the ankle shin or knee, Cat stance goes to the knee thigh or groin/stomach, Crane stance kicks between the groin and head and a knee raise in kata can be interpreted as any leg technique as required. Of course this template is primarily for Shotokan kata which make use of both cat and back stance as well as the others mentioned.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#345203 - 07/20/07 04:06 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Are there any other differences between Funakoshi's karate and the later derived Shorin ryu schools that warrant discussion?
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