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#345184 - 07/12/07 07:12 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, if we really want to analyze Funakoshi's modifications to kata, I think we should use Naihanchi Shodan since Funakoshi didn't learn Pinan from Itosu, but from Mabuni I believe. I consider Mabuni a contemporary of Fuankoshi rather than a teacher of great influence. In addition teachings directly from Itosu are closer to the source. You will also find footage of Funakoshi performing Naihanchi in 1924 on Youtube as well.

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#345185 - 07/13/07 04:22 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Loc: London, UK
I think Ed wanted to see the difference between cat stance and back stance which naihanchi is lacking but I have no objection. Anyone want to put up the vid links?
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#345186 - 07/13/07 05:29 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Ed_Morris]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Ed,

The attack I had in mind was a hook from the front, defence on the inside.

You are right, traditional, long kokutsu dachi makes no sense at all in this situation but a short back stance, feet in line but weight forward does, not quite like cat stance but similar (except for the weight forward but I think you need the weight and sliding motion behind the strikes). For me, long back stance is for show/exercise, not application. That said, traditional cat stance feels quite flimsy, hence the hybrid I describe above. As a defensive posture bringing back the weight prior to a knee strike or intermediate stance before stepping into sanchin dachi though, it seems to me to have more use.

I will try and work through your application but as you say it is hard to visualise using words alone.

B.


Edited by Barad (07/13/07 05:33 AM)

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#345187 - 07/13/07 07:39 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
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Barad,

The main application I use of H2's opening movement is similar to yours. In it the rear (right) hand blocks age uke and grabs against a right punch from an attacker at the left. As this happens you step past the opponents lead leg in back stance and either left uppercut to ribs/chin or left hammerfist to face. I use a short back stance and for all such close quarter applications the short back stance is better, although in this instance the long stance can be useful if you wish to get behind the opponent.
I feel the long kokutsudachi is only useful if you are using modern JKA tactics (or at least what I understand to be modern JKA tactics), i.e. block and move well out of range, counter by shifting your body into the opponent as they move to close the distance. One's whole fighting method must be geared around long range to use long back stance in combat and long range fighting, as with any method, has its flaws and weaknesses.
I think that the biggest problem that a tournament focus created for Shotokan is that it stopped people learning to use the long-fist method that Shotokan evolved into. Forget the other stuff in the kata, the basic structrue of of JKA Shotokan is a fine fighting method in its self. I've met very few people who know how to use it.
As a result the long kokutsudachi is just exercise and stylistics to most.
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#345188 - 07/13/07 08:11 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
At last someone understands what I am talking about!

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#345189 - 07/13/07 11:24 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
oldman Offline
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#345190 - 07/13/07 11:51 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Barad]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Here are a couple of variations that are pretty easy to understand and train. My stye is very similar to shotokan and is practiced very much like the shotokan films I've seen from the fourties and fifties. Straight forward applications are taught. My instuctor is not very interested in bunkai but comes from a paradigm of generation power for strikes and kicks from proper biomechanics. I have had to explore the subject myself over time.

It would be Ideal to have a teacher who had this knowledge and would probably be a more efficient way of learning. Shifting my thinking from a block, punch ,kick mindset to a what was the "intent of the creator" mindset helped me to see what was possible. I just continue to poke and prod and plod along finding things as I go. The change in my thinking reinvigorated my training by both giving me an interesting puzzle, continual realizations. I also have a growing respect and admiration for the designers of the forms.

My current position on things is that a Shotokan/ Funikoshi styled approach to training provides a physical challenge that exercises the body in a full range of motion in a way that is asthetically beautiful. I believe it can provide basic self defense in a resonable period of time via the punch kick block paradigm and that the art reveals itsef to people over time as they continue in it. The time spent researching digging and practicing make the art personal, and a reflection of the individual, allowing the practioner to be both part of a system (Classical Mess) and free from it at the same time.

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#345191 - 07/13/07 05:57 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Ed,

Somewhere back there on page 4 you asked for views on application of the opening movement Heian Nidan-does what I wrote make any sense to you?

B.




I read you applications again...I can't visualize where your attacks are coming from.

one intepretation I have for the opening of pinan sho is this: offlining to the outside an attack from the front using simultaneous guard and overhand jab to the head followed immediately with pulling the head down into an uppercut. this all applies nearly at clinch-range without pause - one motion.





I think I can see your point about offlining. I think one of the reasons that pinan shodan was used was to teach off lining using cat stance ( 45 degress in the kata) The part where the bunkia is a jump (while blocking) to the side(using cat stance) and kick to the attackers thigh or wherever can be reached subject to where the attacker is.
Which is ok for people who are agile.

I think the not so agile types would push back offline using kokutsu dachi and not so much spring.

If I am understanding the technique you described correctly then that might apply to two thirds of the technique but what about the last part in the kata?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1503318620275877666

Interesting that this style(medulants style I think) doesnt use naihanchi in the opening technique?

Where as wado/shito does

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8026623585364729799

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8026623585364729799

I think its because of a different learning curve maybe?

Jude.

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#345192 - 07/13/07 06:08 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Well, if we really want to analyze Funakoshi's modifications to kata, I think we should use Naihanchi Shodan since Funakoshi didn't learn Pinan from Itosu, but from Mabuni I believe. I consider Mabuni a contemporary of Fuankoshi rather than a teacher of great influence. In addition teachings directly from Itosu are closer to the source. You will also find footage of Funakoshi performing Naihanchi in 1924 on Youtube as well.








http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=6

Seems a lot of use of hip torque (gamaku being the name for the middle body muscles ?)

So the technique I described for the opening of pinan shodan would be to use cat stance to spring offline from the attack to get inside the opponent blocking and striking with the front hand the rear hand used to chamber/
gaurd from a second strike then strike in naihanchi stance using the hip torque to power the last strike found in the technique. More than likely other techniques would follow.

Jude



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9LWIw

Totaly different ball game namely poss strike/ foot sweep
then a throw in there. Combined with the moving to a 45 degree angle offside using back stance from shotokans version of the kata.

Just my thoughts

Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/13/07 06:37 PM)

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#345193 - 07/13/07 06:29 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: oldman]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Hi Oldman,

Although you end up with the hammer fist strike and throw I described before, I had a couple of questions. Although I have seen the turn behind used against a grab perfectly well, why in the second picture is the hand over the forehead? It seems to me that if it is doing nothing to attack or defend, then it should be in guard? However if it is shown there in the kata, which it obviosuly is, then it has a meaning. Also, how do you feel about the distancing as the pictures show a conventional kokutsudachi? To me it looks too long for the encounter. Good artwork though!

Thanks,

B.

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