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#345174 - 07/12/07 04:02 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

No, but is is about his technique and/or modifications of what was taught to him. If he was never praised by his teachers for his kata, then maybe he was doing it wrong for many years. Has anyone ever had a student/classmate/senior who is a wonderful person and tries very hard. They are able to adequately apply what they have learned, however, their technique has just always been off and is mediocre at best, even after 20 years of training. Maybe Funakoshi's modfications of Azato and Itosu's art was unintentional. Maybe he simply lacked talent in karate, however, his being a wonderful person and teacher made up for this.




My thoughts.

Or maybe he took more influence from another of his teachers then the two you mentioned didnt approve therefore no praise as such.
If I am correct in my studies then it leads me to believe that the pechan teacher/tomari te (that has been said he had might have had) had more influeunce. Considering as well his art was aiming for Japan.

From my limiteds studies( and I need to study more) I am reaching a conclusion that karate can be practiced in many different ways. There were so many different infleunces in the melting pot just like kushanku seems so diffent than Jion.



Maybe the fact that his other teachers didnt approve
The budo element of samuri( Okinawan pechan?)
Did the pechans study budo/weopons as did their mainland counter parts?
The fact that he must have benefited from taking his art to Japan was the reason he did what he did?

Either way the end result seemed popular.



Im just speculating.

Jude

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#345175 - 07/12/07 04:22 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually, I believe that he trained most extensively with Itosu and Azato. I also believe they were his first teachers. Therefore, no matter how much influence any other teachers had, his karate was apparently not praised by them when they were his only teachers.

Who exactly were Funakoshi's teachers who had more influence upon him than Itosu and Azato? He trained a little bit with Matsumura. Do you believe that Itosu would not praise Matsumura's techniques if he were performing them well?

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#345176 - 07/12/07 05:18 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med, the impression I got when I read that (I don't have the book anymore) was of hard nosed teachers who didn't give praise as opposed to GF being useless. Either option is possible though. I would imagine he was trying to convey the former as it would seem unlikely he would tell the world his teachers thought he was useless... then again he could have been that blissfully ignorant sort who lied to himself about how he was viewed by others.

Thing is we still don't know who actually made modifications or changes or indeed if any were made at all. Seeing as we are not discussing which Okinawan Karateka could beat up the others I always felt that Funakoshi's skill was always much less important than his knowledge and his ability to teach. I for one am more knowledgeable than I am currently able, I hate to think where I'll be at 50+ years old.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#345177 - 07/12/07 05:41 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

conjecture, guessing and suppossing of what went where taught by whom and at which time....bla bla bla...how much does it help really?

The salient point of the thread is what were the modifications- or lets call them 'differences' since it's even contested Funakoshi made any changes at all. (although I note, nobody was really ready to argue that until I brought up specifics)

after people identify those differences...then it's an exercise of the pros and cons of each difference based on our collective experience.

THEN, that may shed light on the 'why'.




Ed,
you propose an interesting debate, but much like Victor with his Bubishi discussions it is doomed to silent failure. I have been trying to have this debate, a comparative stylistic analysis, ever since I started posting on MA forums. No one ever wants to know and when people do post they invariably have blinkers on and ignore any explanation of an unfamiliar technique in favour of "I can't see how it can possibly work" "karate-do not Karate-jutsu" "my styles better than your style" etc etc etc.

That said I am completely willing to give it another go. I would suggest we first need to look at the same kata in different systems and mark out the differences, then discuss application potential. I think trying to find pro's and con's will just cause the thread to degenerate as no one will want to admit cons, claiming "you just don't understand my style" "Karate-jutsu not Karate-do" "my styles better than your style" etc etc etc.

I'd recomend that seeing as folks are already thinking about it and though there are lots of versions they all have the same known source we should look at Pinan Shodan/Hiean Nidan. All in favour...??
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#345178 - 07/12/07 06:04 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm getting unclear messages here...

1. It is or is not a concensus that Funakoshi even made any modifications? This would seem to be the first hurdle to illustrate, or else there is not really much of a discussion beyond that.

2. knowledge and ability to teach, justifies/legitimizes technical modifications ? ie: Funakoshi was a great teacher and highly respected, therefore any modifications he may have made, are accepted ?

3. If changes were made, they are assumed to be for change in tactic and/or fighting range? so if other okinawan styles have a close-range efficiency, and Shotokan is a strategy geered for a bit of a longer range...is it logical to suppose that IF changes were made, they were made for that reason? in other words, changed for range optimization.

In order to interpret kata and integrate it with 2-person drills...aren't one of the first things you must determine is the assumed range of those principles?

if the assumed range changes, then the body mechanics change ...subsequently the economy of movement in kata would also change in order to preserve those principles. If 'anything can be interpreted as anything', then whats the reason of having any difference to what you were taught?

is that reasonable ?

my assumption is that each style/system addresses slightly different questions ...as a result, the answers change however large or slight. In order to preserve those answers, the body mechanics preserve the principles - such as in kata. In other words, if you change something from how you were taught...you'd better have a functional reason for doing so, otherwise the changes are arbitrary.

conceivably, there are reasons for changes that have little to do with function. maybe a person doing the changes is going for a certain 'look and feel'...such as to produce difference for distiction - possible motivations for doing that could be to have a different product, cultural identity, etc.
or, conceivably, changes could be philosophical/symbolic. the question to ask when a philosophy supports a tactic is, did the philosophy come first or did the tactic?


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#345179 - 07/12/07 07:17 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
we crossed posted and I didn't see your last until after.

If it doesn't bother anyone in the thread that I've never studied Shotokan, then sure...I'm game to your proposal. hey, I wish more Shorin-based people would chime in on the Goju threads.

Quote:

Chojun Miyagi: There is an opinion insisting that there are two Ryu or styles in karate, namely, Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu. I think such an opinion is wrong or false, as there is no evidence at all. However, if we have two styles in karate, we can categorize them by their teaching methods.



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#345180 - 07/12/07 09:33 AM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Ed_Morris]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Ed,

Somewhere back there on page 4 you asked for views on application of the opening movement Heian Nidan-does what I wrote make any sense to you?

B.

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#345181 - 07/12/07 01:00 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


you propose an interesting debate, but much like Victor with his Bubishi discussions it is doomed to silent failure. I have been trying to have this debate, a comparative stylistic analysis, ever since I started posting on MA forums. No one ever wants to know and when people do post they invariably have blinkers on and ignore any explanation of an unfamiliar technique in favour of "I can't see how it can possibly work" "karate-do not Karate-jutsu" "my styles better than your style" etc etc etc.

That said I am completely willing to give it another go. I would suggest we first need to look at the same kata in different systems and mark out the differences, then discuss application potential. I think trying to find pro's and con's will just cause the thread to degenerate as no one will want to admit cons, claiming "you just don't understand my style" "Karate-jutsu not Karate-do" "my styles better than your style" etc etc etc.

I'd recomend that seeing as folks are already thinking about it and though there are lots of versions they all have the same known source we should look at Pinan Shodan/Hiean Nidan. All in favour...??




Hi

I think it might get interesting if the more advanced kata were also discussed(but not to advanced) considering Kanazawa sensie and other high grades have included katas in their curriculem that are also in goju etc.




http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=7

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=7

These seem to lose the stereo type.

I think karate consists of nuts and bolts. The materials are there its a case of putting them together that seems to be the difficult part. I personaly have no interest in styles only what I think works to my benefit.

Jude

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#345182 - 07/12/07 06:34 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Barad]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Ed,

Somewhere back there on page 4 you asked for views on application of the opening movement Heian Nidan-does what I wrote make any sense to you?

B.




I read you applications again...I can't visualize where your attacks are coming from.

one intepretation I have for the opening of pinan sho is this: offlining to the outside an attack from the front using simultaneous guard and overhand jab to the head followed immediately with pulling the head down into an uppercut. this all applies nearly at clinch-range without pause - one motion.

kokutsu dachi for a close-in app like that, doesn't make sense. doesn't make sense to use a grounded structure when off-lining or parrying. grounded structure is best only right at the .01 second of striking impact.

so the neko-ashii dachi is only during the offline strike - the grounded weight drop happens during the guided uppercut.

soften the target...then drop it.

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#345183 - 07/12/07 06:50 PM Re: Funakoshi and modificiations [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hello again Ed,

Quote:

1. It is or is not a concensus that Funakoshi even made any modifications? This would seem to be the first hurdle to illustrate, or else there is not really much of a discussion beyond that.




I do not concede that Funakoshi made any modifications. I believe he went to Japan teaching what Itosu and Azato wanted him to teach. Others may disagree, but a concesus based on feelings and opinions is worthless. Sure you could have a debate, but you would be ignoring the fact that there is no evidence to support the basic premise for the debate.

Quote:

3. If changes were made, they are assumed to be for change in tactic and/or fighting range? so if other okinawan styles have a close-range efficiency, and Shotokan is a strategy geered for a bit of a longer range...is it logical to suppose that IF changes were made, they were made for that reason? in other words, changed for range optimization.




I shall clarify my position on this. The kata of Shotokan teach a range of fighting principles. Different kata teach different principles. Some kata are based around long range combat. Some are based around close quarters. Most I feel are based around BOTH as range is a constantly changing factor in an actual fight.
The BULK of the physical technique of standard modern Shotokan is most easily applied without adjustment at a mid to long range with emphasis on closing to finish. HOWEVER there is plenty of technique designed for close quarter combat practiced everyday in Shotokan dojo's and these are usually the movements that curious students seek applications for. This does not represent the range of principles and concepts available in the Kata of the art. It is this way because one aspect of the arts potential was emphasised over others when the school was in its infancy. Superficial changes to the external technique changed how exponents chose to use those techniques, not what they were for.
Now here's the part that will really mess with your heads and many will disagree with it.
The mechanics of the art when employed at long range are NO DIFFERENT to when it is employed at close range.

As I said this is only my opinion I cannot speak for other Shotokan practitioners.

Quote:

conceivably, there are reasons for changes that have little to do with function. maybe a person doing the changes is going for a certain 'look and feel'...such as to produce difference for distiction - possible motivations for doing that could be to have a different product, cultural identity, etc.
or, conceivably, changes could be philosophical/symbolic. the question to ask when a philosophy supports a tactic is, did the philosophy come first or did the tactic?




Yes all of this is conceivable. Assuming of course changes were made.
As there is no way to know if a change was made and even less way to know why it may have been made if it was then I would suggest that the concievable reasons for change that you mentioned are considered only when a valid effective functional reason can not be found for a technique.

Of course in the case of such a movement, where the evidence was lacking as to the techniques relative age in relation to other similarly contexted movements, I would have to ask whether it was not equally conceivable that the fact of the techniques seeming obscure inapplicableness may not have been cause for the other later derived arts to change what they were doing leaving the art in question with a historical relic.

And so we press on, analysing differences in technique to Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan.

Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHS9Y0_0vsU

Matsubayashi Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzcUfnGJyI

Dentokan Shorin ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWX6T0Ip3NU

Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc

Uchinadi???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lgjL7yApfQ

Okinawa Kenpo??
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=4

Seidokan Shorin/Motobu ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXnqEW2sMuc

Kyodokan Shorin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_DKEJDFhsk

Sadly I couldn't find any footage of Funakoshi in the 20's doing kata a la Karate Jutsu. Let me know what you think the biggest differences are.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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