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#344581 - 05/30/07 11:49 PM Blindfolded chi sau
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Does anybody do/done this? Seems kind of silly and gimmicky to me, but does it have any merit I may have missed? My thought is that even if you are incredibly wrist/arm sensitive, you still need your eyes to detect many movements - especially OUT OF CHI SAU RANGE!!!
Thanx to any WC players who can clear this up for me.

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#344582 - 05/31/07 02:09 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
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blind folded training can be useful. helps with kinesthetic and proprioception.


Edited by ashe_higgs (05/31/07 02:12 AM)
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#344583 - 05/31/07 05:13 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
northstar Offline
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I believe one of the essences of Chinese martial arts is controlling your opponent's balance through striking and sensitivity... which means thereotically you shouldn't have to see your opponent to control them.

Not to say the eyes are useless -- that's just absurd.

However, a reaction from your spinal cord/nerves is alot faster than a reaction which you had to 'see' and process in your brain.

Don't know about blindfolded sensitivity as a goal itself, but it shouldn't be too difficult for someone who can apply their stickiness/sensitivity at a competent level.

Personally I have found that closing my eyes during free grappling and push hands sometimes stops me from being distracted by my eyesight. Too much mind


Edited by northstar (05/31/07 05:17 AM)

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#344584 - 05/31/07 03:49 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: northstar]
JKogas Offline
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I don't believe in chi sao at all so I'd say no. However I do work pummeling with my eyes closed. There's no reason for a blindfold if you're not trying to cheat.


-John

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#344585 - 05/31/07 04:10 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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why bother with pummeling if you don't beleive in sticky hand/. sticky hands is the next progression of spinning hands/pummeling.
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#344586 - 05/31/07 06:56 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
MattJ Offline
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Used to do some closed-eye chi sao with my workout buddies years ago. It's interesting to try, but not really necessary, IMHO.
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#344587 - 05/31/07 07:52 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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" blind folded training can be useful. helps with kinesthetic and proprioception. " - ashe higgs.

Thanks man. I consider myself pretty articulate, but I had to bust out the dictionary on proprioception

Jkogas - I hear what you're saying but it sounds like you do believe in chi sau... or at least the way my school does chi sau. It gets to be alot like g'n'p or pummeling sometimes. In fact, I see more benefit in trying to do chi sau from the guard than with a blindfold.

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#344588 - 05/31/07 08:24 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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The way I see chi sao being done, NEVER occurs in a fight. Pummeling however does. There IS a difference between the two. Distance being that difference. That's why I only practice pummeling. At least there is a direct relation to what appens in a fight. The distance of chi sao isn't realistic for what it's trying to accomplish, in my opinion.

-John

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#344589 - 05/31/07 08:39 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

The way I see chi sao being done, NEVER occurs in a fight.




Like Shikataganai, I have found ChiSao useful in the mount or guard. It makes it much more difficult for the opponent to grab you, and gives some options as far as attacking them.
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#344590 - 06/01/07 02:37 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Quote:

The way I see chi sao being done, NEVER occurs in a fight. Pummeling however does. There IS a difference between the two. Distance being that difference. That's why I only practice pummeling. At least there is a direct relation to what appens in a fight. The distance of chi sao isn't realistic for what it's trying to accomplish, in my opinion.

-John




most people don't train sticky hands properly is why.

if you have the right idea of how to train the sticky hand then you can begin to apply your skills to real time exchanges. pummeling/spinning hand/rou shou and stikcy hand are really the same thing, they just focus on different principles during the training.
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#344591 - 06/01/07 02:46 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: MattJ]
donchisau Offline
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Shikata I thought you were a student of Phil Nearings am I wrong?

IMO you will never learn wing chun unless you spend alot of time doing blindfolded chi sau. The core purpose of chi sau is to learn how to react to incoming energy without haveing to think. You want to skip the brain completely to make reactions instinctive. Blindfolded takes your eyes out of the equation you are no longer reacting to what you see but only to what you feel. You learn to feel your openings and learn to attck the opponents openings. The normal reaction sequence is see something realize what that someing is then determine how to react then react. When blindfolded you learn how to feel energy then react to that energy you greatly reduce the thought process.

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#344592 - 06/01/07 03:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


most people don't train sticky hands properly is why.





I'm 42 years old and have been training for close to 30 years. In all that time then, I have NEVER seen it "being trained properly" if that's the case.

Or perhaps, it's not capable of being trained properly, in my opinion.

Or perhaps people just do wrestling pummeling, call it chi-sao and then say, "see, this is correct chi sao".

Thus could be the argument that chi-sao equals pummeling. But most people who do pummeling understands that it does not.

Thus, chi sao and pummeling are NOT the same.


Quote:


pummeling/spinning hand/rou shou and stikcy hand are really the same thing, they just focus on different principles during the training.





They aren't the same thing though. They focus on different distances and that (I have found) is the problem with chi sao.

Perhaps you (or anyone) could provide some youtube video links to what you call correct chi-sao. Then I will try to provide some of good pummeling. You may notice a difference.


-John

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#344593 - 06/01/07 09:41 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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distance is just another factor in the same equation. you can and should train at the wrist, at the elbow and at the body, both stationary and with stepping.

spinning hand/pummeling trains the changing point of contact, sticky hand trains flowing on the point. same thing, still about the point and manifesting the right force at the point.

my Sifu will be in NC again in september. if you want to experience good spinning/sticky hand go see him.

clip 1

the ranges on this one ought to make you happy...
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#344594 - 06/01/07 09:49 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ashe_higgs Offline
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#344595 - 06/01/07 09:50 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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The first one looked like a dance with no takedowns or striking.

The second one didn't show me anything. All "demos". And while demonstrations are great...

No, lets not kid ourselves. Demos suck. They always go as planned. This is what makes them different than pummeling, which always has been and always will be better than any chi-sao, any where, done by any one.

IF chi sao was so great, it would be practiced by Greco-Roman wrestlers.

Just my opinion.


-John

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#344596 - 06/01/07 10:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
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I just saw the rest of the videos including those of you and your friend flowing.

One of the glaring problems that I see with chi sao is the distance of the elbow away from the body.

When viewing most people doing chi sao, including that of you and your friend there, I see arm-drags just being asked for. None are taken however.

I also see underhooks, duck unders and just about every other attack because of the "open doors".

I'm quite sure every chi sao master from here to Kowloon will say that no such attacks are possible.

To that I say, boolsheet.



-John

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#344597 - 06/01/07 10:19 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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well, you gotta feel it.

just cuz you can see it don't mean you can capitalize on it.

i didn't have much hope for you any way.

like i said, go meet the man and i guarantee you'll sing a different tune.
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#344598 - 06/01/07 10:42 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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"I see arm-drags just being asked for. None are taken however.
"

I see 'em taken. All the time.

Back to blindfolds - I still think, no matter what your opinion of overall chi sau is, that they are the stuff of demos. I think your ability to deal quickly with spontaneously created situations depends greatly on your eyes. How else could you watch their elbows/knees for movement? You can't feel what you're not sticking to.

BTW - my school spends excessive time training our distancing and timing skills. The statement that wing chun only operates in one range is a myth.

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#344599 - 06/02/07 12:38 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Quote:

You can't feel what you're not sticking to.





you don't need to feel their whole body, just the point of contact which is what you need to unify with and act on.
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#344600 - 06/02/07 01:16 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

...like i said, go meet the man and i guarantee you'll sing a different tune.




Yeah, like everyone else, I'll love to see JKogas do arm-dregs, hooks, takedowns etc (and some Greco-Roman wrestling) when your Sifu ever so often "opens" his "doors"

Jkogas is 42 years old and has been training for 30 years; how old is your Sifu and how long has he been training?

Just saying "In My Opinion" (however humbly intoned) is just doing "Armchair Pummelling"
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#344601 - 06/02/07 01:56 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ButterflyPalm]
JKogas Offline
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If he's in my neck of the woods, I may check him out. I'm not however in the habit of challenging folks. Training, that's another story. But I'm not going to walk in on someone's seminar and be disrespectful.

My challenging days are behind me. Everyone has an opinion and are welcome to it. I have my own and a lot of confidence in it. That comes from hard earned experience. I'm sure everyone else feels the same way.

That's what is so good about training ego-free. You're not emotionally crippled when you get your ass handed to you. I've had mine handed to me over the years and is what has led me to where I am now. I've seen and felt about everything one can in martial arts.

A few things I've learned for sure are

1. There are no secrets

2. There are no untouchable masters

3. Bullsheet is alive and well in the martial arts


-John

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#344602 - 06/02/07 02:06 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Quote:

I've seen and felt about everything one can in martial arts.




i think that sums up quite a bit. *cough*narrowminded*cough*.

anyway, i'll send you a PM before he's in NC next. i'm not suggesting you challenge anyone, but i think if you go you'll be impressed.
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#344603 - 06/02/07 05:30 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

I've seen and felt about everything one can in martial arts





...in your humble opinion of course....

No, I was certainly not suggesting you challenge him; I do see the problem, however, of turning up and "asking for a lesson"

I only saw it as a good opportunity for you to put your 'opinion' to the test, if the "request" can be sensitively handled. Who knows, chi sao may very well turn out to be as ineffective as you opine it and is good only for compliant demonstrations.

As I am not into chi sao or spinning sao myself, I am qenuinely curious, and coming across someone like you who has a strong opinion on it and Ashe is happy for you to meet his Sifu.......it appears to be a perfect coincidence of circumstances. The last thing I want is to appear as an agent provocateur.
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#344604 - 06/02/07 08:30 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


i think that sums up quite a bit. *cough*narrowminded*cough*.





What I meant was, that I have experienced just about every sort of technique that one can experience. It's not like anyone is going to show me a *functional* move that I have never seen before. Do you see what I'm saying now?

That isn't saying that I've sparred with the world's greatest fighters or that *I* am the world's greatest fighter folks. I know otherwise all too well.

And while I would never say that I'm an Olympic level wrestler (or anywhere close), I do know wrestling. Chi sao is not wrestling, by any stretch. And I've had plenty of experience with chi sao.


Quote:


anyway, i'll send you a PM before he's in NC next. i'm not suggesting you challenge anyone, but i think if you go you'll be impressed.





I'm sure he's good at what he does and no, I wasn't inferring that you or anyone else were suggesting that I challenge him. I was just making it clear that, that isn't what I am about.

Personally speaking, I dropped chi sao out of my training regimen a dozen years ago after having practiced it for quite some time. This was in the spirit of daily decrease. When you find things that accomplish the same objectives and do so better, what would be the point of continuing to practice something?

The elbows away from the body are a fundamental NO-NO. We used to practice hu-bud right along with chi sao and mix them together. Hubud was dropped as well again, because of the fundamental flaw of moving the elbows away from the body. It's just "bad wrestling" to do so.

Maybe it's not bad kung fu, but its definitely bad wrestling.



-John

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#344605 - 06/02/07 06:36 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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so how 'bout some good pummeling clips?

and i understand what you mean about maintain the elbows close to the body, but you really can't do that and still act. every time you strike, etc., the elbows are going to move away from the body, so IMO you'd better learn how to use the elbows at all sorts of distances.
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#344606 - 06/02/07 09:59 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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And you're RIGHT! You can't strike without the elbows moving away from the body. This is exactly the reason that many strikers get taken to the ground in real fights. You've actually made one of my own points.

Speaking about that; obviously you've got to be a HIGHLY disciplined striker to avoid the takedown. You've got to to have a sprawl ready at all times. Even still, it's extremely difficult for most folks to avoid that takedown against a competent wrestler.

And yes you CAN clinch fight with the elbows tight. Well, you don't have to. But for those who don't or can't, they'll be seeing the ground from the bottom perspective.

As far as pummeling clips go, I'll try and find some good ones.


-John

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#344607 - 06/03/07 12:27 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Quote:


And yes you CAN clinch fight with the elbows tight. Well, you don't have to. But for those who don't or can't, they'll be seeing the ground from the bottom perspective.





only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.
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#344608 - 06/03/07 12:52 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

...only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.




I suppose we'll have to say that the level of competence of an individual practitioner is crucial; a low competence level practitioner of, say, chi sao will allow almost anything to get through, but that by itself does not negate the usefulness of the technique.

Chi Sao is not an end in itself; it is a prelude, a set-up, to a counter-strike; if one were to keep doing it and nothing else to defend against an attack or an attempted takedown, obviously sooner or later something will get through, no matter how good you are.

Chi Sao I believe is useful as a "first-contact" technique, as opposed to a simple block or grabbing an attacking limb.
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#344609 - 06/03/07 02:33 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
northstar Offline
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Sticky hands doesn't happen in a fight, but it's principles still apply; sensitivity, sticking on, keeping your self covered and exploiting your opponent's body positioning.

I can't comment too much on wing chun chi sao, as I have trained in different Chinese arts and they had a different approach.

Basically though, as crazy as it may sound (if you don't believe/understand sensitivity), as long as you have contact with your enemy you have a good chance of knowing what is coming next and controlling someone (if you're good enough).

I'm not that great but basically I can feel:

-from which direction or angle is his next move going to come
-where his balance is
-where I am open
-where is he open; where to hit him or trick him into making an opening
-the most appropriate technique to apply in the situation

A good level of Chinese martial arts is not block, strike, block, strike. I'm not saying that it doesn't work because it definately does. We just have a different approach to fighting.

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#344610 - 06/03/07 08:01 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: northstar]
JKogas Offline
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ashe-higgs wrote
Quote:


only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.





Ever watch MMA? Most of those guys are decent wrestlers. They seem to get taken down in spite of the fact that they understand wrestling. Thats just the way it is because it happens in the sport of wrestling as well. One of the two wrestlers is going down at some point.

To beat wrestling, you have to KNOW wrestling. Period. If you can't control mass using wrestling, I've got news for you - you're not going to control it using chi-sao. I don't know if you were suggesting that or not.

If that were possible, weíd have seen it in MMA by now. But you donít do you? Iíve never ONCE seen chi-sao in MMA and I doubt very seriously that you ever will.

You DO see pummeling however. There are reasons why this is so. Itís not training anymore. Itís fighting. ďRealĒ functional drills comes directly out of sparring. Chi sao comes from someoneís idea of what ďshould beĒ . Not what is.



ButterflyPalm wrote

Quote:


Chi Sao I believe is useful as a "first-contact" technique, as opposed to a simple block or grabbing an attacking limb.





Elbows away from the body during fighting? Thatís going to get someone knocked out or taken down.

In boxing, that is drilled out of practitioners asap. It's called "reaching" or "pawing". That's fundamental no-no.



northstar wrote

Quote:

Sticky hands doesn't happen in a fight, but it's principles still apply; sensitivity, sticking on, keeping your self covered and exploiting your opponent's body positioning.





Youíre also making one of my own points. I never said the principles didnít apply. But the distance from which chi-sao is performed is not realistic for fighting. This is why when you see wing chun guys spar (if you ever do), you never see chi-sao and you rarely even see any trapping. You know what you DO often see? You see ďbad MMAĒ.

Here is an example of "bad mma" from some wing chun guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV7O0nJpGbQ

My point was that pummeling will accomplish the same objectives but do so more realistically, by working the actual techniques that you will use in fighting (along with the actual distance in which they are used).

What you wrote in the quote above is the exact same thing that good pummeling will accomplish. The difference is, it does it better that chi sao.

If chi sao worked, Iíd still be doing it folks.







I can't comment too much on wing chun chi sao, as I have trained in different Chinese arts and they had a different approach.





Itís all the same for the most part. None if it is what I consider to be functional.



Quote:


Basically though, as crazy as it may sound (if you don't believe/understand sensitivity), as long as you have contact with your enemy you have a good chance of knowing what is coming next and controlling someone (if you're good enough).





Not from the that distance bro. It may work if everyone you face fights just like a wing chun guy. But, fights donít happen like that.



Quote:


I'm not that great but basically I can feel:

-from which direction or angle is his next move going to come
-where his balance is
-where I am open
-where is he open; where to hit him or trick him into making an opening
-the most appropriate technique to apply in the situation





Which is all based on an unrealistic distance for what you are trying to accomplish.


Quote:


A good level of Chinese martial arts is not block, strike, block, strike. I'm not saying that it doesn't work because it definately does. We just have a different approach to fighting.





Then why is it never seen in MMA? Itís not been seen ONCE in the past 14 years. If it did what you suggest, I believe that some good kung fu guys would have made use of it. But they havenít. Again, there are reasons why thatís son (and it's not because MMA is a "sport and wing chun is for street" so lets leave that age old excuse out of the debate.)


-John

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#344611 - 06/03/07 10:26 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by JKogas -

Quote:

Maybe it's not bad kung fu, but its definitely bad wrestling.




Interesting. I have never considered ChiSao to be 'wrestling' of any kind. Nor is it strictly striking, IMHO. I believe it is something in between - an isolation excersize to develop "mid-range" sensitivity. I have found it useful against many different types of fighters, especially in stand-up. I do think in the clinch, ChiSao loses it's effectiveness compared to other, more specific clinch-training. But once on the ground, it again can be useful from the high mount, or defending from the guard.

It is a specific range tool. Works sometimes. Others, not.
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#344612 - 06/03/07 11:49 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Loc: Bellingham, WA
It's also a matter of training your 'bridge seeking' skills very hard. This is the most crucial element to WC for combat AND ring effectiveness. I don't understand why it's so understated in so many WC schools. Improper bridging is what got Scott Baker in trouble in the first place in UFC 2 (if we really have to go there ) - dude was asking for the hands, which is something you only do in chi sau.
The clinch does pose an interesting problem - but in a no rules situation, it can be circumvented. You can use cup jarn (elbows), twist the guy's nuts, bite his frickin' ear... clinch range is a bad place to be for both fighters in an unsupervised fight. Remembering that if they're holding you, they're holding themselves can present many options. However, none of these tactics can be utilized in the ring... and i'm going to leave it there before the same old stupid ring vs. street argument kicks in.
Anyway, yes chi sau is a particular range, but a good fighter will know how to get in and out of it and use it really well. Kinda like ground fighting. Only i'm more on board for a style that promotes staying on your feet. That's my preference, mainly because rolling on concrete HURTS and i want to stay out of that position. Yeah, that's bad wrestling, and it's good kung fu. Good kung fu also entails not exchanging punches, not hitting into empty space, not giving the enemy any signals or telegraphing...
it doesn't work out that way some of the time, but training for it raises the success percentage.
And at the end of the day, self defense is about having an advantage, right? That said, is ANY style really useless then? Let's face it - any 'real' fight any of us will ever engage in will most likely NOT be with a fellow MA student.

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#344613 - 06/03/07 03:08 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
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John,

it is possible to control the mass from the point of contact. we do it all the time. (the caveat is, of course, there are varying levels of ability and only a few of us have developed any decent level)

the wrestlers i've played with so far couldn't hold their own against me when it came to just pummeling. they just don't understand about controlling the mass the same way.

there are examples of what i would call application of spinning and sticky hand skill that i've seen in mma too. i'll have to look for some clips.

(hell, anytime you slip or parry a punch i call that real time application of spinning/sticky hand)
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#344614 - 06/03/07 07:18 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"Here is an example of "bad mma" from some wing chun guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV7O0nJpGbQ
"

I just watched this finally - good friggin' grief! My sifu would sling my a$$ for fighting this way. This is bad for ANY style - there isn't even a hint of basic principle there. Just two apes slugging away at it.

Guys please, we can drudge examples of crappy fighting in any system off GooTube till we're cut and pasting ourselves into a carpal tunnel state. Lame is lame, so don't pin this kind of crap on WC, or any other style.

Anyway, if you want to get on the 'Tube and see some WC applied in MMA that WORKS (blended with ground fighting of course), search for Alan Orr, Aaron Baum, the Iron Wolves Fighting Team or Chu Sao Lei Wing chun. The guys who train WC and can fight like the best are out there. The difference? They train out of chi sau more than in. It's what any WC student should do after getting chi sau down. Now, that's not to say I don't love a good chi sau - the beauty is i'll be able to do it till the day I die, old and frail... can't say that for sparring

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#344615 - 06/03/07 10:25 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

it is possible to control the mass from the point of contact. we do it all the time. (the caveat is, of course, there are varying levels of ability and only a few of us have developed any decent level)





Of course. I wish only to meet such folks. Perhaps I can learn from them. Still waiting after all these yearsÖ.


Quote:


the wrestlers i've played with so far couldn't hold their own against me when it came to just pummeling. they just don't understand about controlling the mass the same way.





Then you have something to teach the freestyle and Greco guys. We only thought we knew controlling mass.



-John

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#344616 - 06/04/07 01:02 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Loc: phoenix
you know i should add, that when it comes to actual application, i'm not gonna stick to you, but i should be making you feel like you want to stick to me, if that makes any sense.

in other words you should move beyond the need to stick to your opponent.
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#344617 - 06/04/07 06:46 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Right.

Man I just have to ask where it is that you guys have been hiding? I mean, you guys that are "really" good with chi-sao. To think that I was doing it wrong all those years... Just my luck that I was never introduced to the top notch folks.

Do you know what this could do for someone's CLINCH game???

I wonder why it is that so many top level clinch guys (like the Couture's of the world) aren't already doing this?? I mean it isn't like no one is aware of chi-sao, ya know? It's not a big secret.

You're not far from Vegas I think. You should get down to Legends and show them what they've been missing.

Makes you wonder. I sure would like to train with you but you're all the way in Phoenix.

Guess I'll have to stay with what I know. Just my luck.


MattJ:

It's not that I'm saying that chi-sao IS "wrestling" but as it's not exactly striking, I lump it into the grappling category. It's my opinion that all things can be reduced to some form of hitting or some form of grappling. Again, just my opinions and definitions of terms.

And for the record (as if it wasn't obvious enough), I still don't buy into chi-sao or any other such hippie energy drills. They may have a marginal use, but as I've mentioned, I've found other things that work infinitely better.

To all
Got a good chi-sao game? Let me know if you're in or near my area. Don't be shy. I want to meet you and train.

Thanks!


-John

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#344618 - 06/04/07 09:56 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

To all
Got a good chi-sao game? Let me know if you're in or near my area. Don't be shy. I want to meet you and train.

Thanks!




lmfao.

thread won
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#344619 - 06/04/07 01:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: crablord]
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata watching the elbows and knees is a precontact method. I have never heard anyone extoll watching them when in contact. you may try to control them when in contact but not watch them. I asked if you were phils student because I am from Chicago and am familier with all the different wing chun teachers there and what they teach. knowing your teacher would make it easier to understand your pov.

John I have no idea where you are I am in the Albuquerque NM area I would be more than happy to work out with you if you are anywhere nearby. I do not fully understand your comments about chi sau. There are several different chi sau platforms for example what has been called spinning hands in wing chun is the huen sau platform although it is done tighter i.e. smaller circles. There is rising and sinking platform. Oi and ngoi platform.Longer distance wrist to wrist and very short distance shoulder chi sao as well and then there is the most common platform poon sau rolling that you see on youtube etc. When you talk about elbow distance the standard is 1 to 1.5 fist lenghts away are you advocating elbow right next to the body? I have trained with professional boxers and some very good wrestlers but I havent seen anyone the advocates keeping the elbows right next to the body. I would like to see a video of this is you can refer me to one. Chi sau trains attributes but it not fighting so I dont understand about someone having a good chi sau game. Being good at chi sau has very little bearing on how well one fights. There are many that play chi sau games infact there are even some chi sau attacks that while they may work in chi sau might cost you your teeth in a fight.
As for wrestling you may find the same attributes trained in chi sau are already trained in wrestling after all it is all about energy usage. Not some hippie thing but for example when someone pulls your arm how do you respond that is a response to energy. If you are pushed how do you respond? That is what chi sau is trying to teach how to respond to different types of energy or to stay non hippie how to respond to different types of attacks both grappling and punching.


Edited by donchisau (06/04/07 01:05 PM)

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#344620 - 06/04/07 02:10 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Don - I learned to watch the elbows in MMA and boxing. Elbow movement gives away the intent of the rest of the arm. This is not to say that I actually STARE straight at an opponent's elbows - I use my periferral vision, that 'seeing through' POV that allows me to pick up on movement. Basically, if you're watching the hands, it will be to late by the time one hits you - the elbow moves first, you see. And yes, this practice IS condoned at my WC school (which I choose not to openly pinpoint on the internet, so if you want to discuss who/where and when I train please PM me). I know more or less what I'm talking about. I have a good centerline and am quick and wiley when it comes to engaging and disengaging (either to choi sau position in chi sau, or out of range in sparring).

Kogas - I respect your opinions and expertise, despite how hard headed they are. But I think you've out done yourself this time. Let me review the facts - you're 42, have been training for 30 years and have tried every art under the sun... why should I except you as an expert on ANYTHING then? Even in 30 years, I don't think most MA'ists can truthfully say they've mastered more than one or two arts. Sounds to me like you never sank your teeth into what you claim to know everything about. I could be wrong, but who's to say given that internet chatter has even less merit than sh1t talking. And name calling - dude, I hope that was just a moment of frustration and not you showing your real stripes. What were you implying? That if a martial artist doesn't shave his head and wear Tapout(c) shorts that he's a hippie? Hippie carries a negative conotation for me, and I think that pinning it on WC guys because they supposedly don't work it as hard as you is a misguided and sheltered opinion. I've got my grievances with wrestling, mate, but I keep them to myself because i'm damn aware that my limited experience with it does not make my opinions of it the truth.
Sorry bro, I would just expect more from you.

And this is officially now a derailed thread.

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#344621 - 06/04/07 04:39 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

Right.

Man I just have to ask where it is that you guys have been hiding?




malaysia

Quote:

Just my luck that I was never introduced to the top notch folks.




well, you've never met my Sifu.



Quote:


You're not far from Vegas I think. You should get down to Legends and show them what they've been missing.




come on john. be reasonable. that's like saying "i know you are but what am i?".

i qualified my statement by saying "the guys i've played with so far". that's guys about my age, who are either high school coaches now, or maybe were division one guys when they wrestled regularly. and i also was careful to say " just pummeling".

if i use the same logic on you, i could say "why don't you show me how good your greco/roman game is by seeing what you can do against ernesto hoost, and if you get ktfo, then greco/roman is no good."

i don't claim to be at that level just yet. i'll be entering my first full contact fight this july, and then from there i plan to pursue it as far as i can take it. at 31 i don't know how far that will be.

if i can find anyone with open mat nights in my area, you can bet i'll be down there playing my game against the bjj guys and anyone else who'll play with me, so i can get better.
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#344622 - 06/04/07 06:32 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Donchisau wrote:
Quote:


When you talk about elbow distance the standard is 1 to 1.5 fist lenghts away are you advocating elbow right next to the body? I have trained with professional boxers and some very good wrestlers but I havent seen anyone the advocates keeping the elbows right next to the body.





Greco-Roman wrestling in particular teaches elbows in tight to the body. Thus is the need for hand fighting. Youíre taught never to reach and to move your body in close to your opponent. This is practically chest to chest. That is fundamental.

Freestyleís structure is lower and you can reach a bit more. However, elbows in is still a fundamental rule of solid structure.


Quote:


I would like to see a video of this is you can refer me to one. Chi sau trains attributes but it not fighting so I dont understand about someone having a good chi sau game.





Watch any of the myriad of chi-sao ďsparringĒ sessions that you see all over youtube. Or, one of those linked to on this very thread. Thatís what I mean by chi-sao ďgameď. Excuse my vernacular.

I realize that chi-sao develops attributes. But isnít it ironic or, perhaps a misspeak that you said that chi-sao trains attributes but not fighting? Am I reading that correctly?

Pummeling teaches attributes and fighting. Thatís among the points Iíve been making.


Quote:


Being good at chi sau has very little bearing on how well one fights. There are many that play chi sau games infact there are even some chi sau attacks that while they may work in chi sau might cost you your teeth in a fight.





I would agree with you here.


Quote:

As for wrestling you may find the same attributes trained in chi sau are already trained in wrestling after all it is all about energy usage.





I understand that completely and was a point I was making in reference to pummeling. Iím simply stating my opinion that the pummeling drills used in wrestling are more functional / practical for fighting than chi-sao. Thatís it.


Quote:


Not some hippie thing but for example when someone pulls your arm how do you respond that is a response to energy. If you are pushed how do you respond? That is what chi sau is trying to teach how to respond to different types of energy or to stay non hippie how to respond to different types of attacks both grappling and punching.





Iíve had experience with chi-sao so I understand where youíre coming from. Itís not like Iím just taking something that I know nothing about and slamming it because Iíve got nothing else to do. I just disagree with the idea that chi-sao can develop anyoneís attributes for fighting in the way that pummeling can. People get bent out of shape because Iím stating my opinions.

Iím in North Carolina by the way. Thanks.



ShikataGaNai wrote
Quote:


Kogas - I respect your opinions and expertise, despite how hard headed they are.




Listen man, whatís being hard headed about stating your observations and experience? Iím simply stating those things. Iím also open minded enough to entertain others points of view. NOT open minded to the point where my brain falls out.

Iím also open and friendly enough to train with anyone so that they can teach me and possibly show me the error of my ways. Thatís how Iíve learned a LOT of things.

Remember, Iím just into whatís functional and proven. If it works, why on EARTH would I be against it, right? Follow the logic? Iíd still be practicing chi-sao if I thought it was worth doing. I donít. Iím not alone.


Quote:


But I think you've out done yourself this time. Let me review the facts - you're 42, have been training for 30 years and have tried every art under the sun...





Donít misquote me bro. I never said I have tried every art under the sun. What was it exactly that I said again?? Re-read what I wrote.


Quote:


why should I except you as an expert on ANYTHING then?





You shouldnít. I never asked you to.



Quote:


Even in 30 years, I don't think most MA'ists can truthfully say they've mastered more than one or two arts.





Never said that either. Either I really got you bent out of shape with what Iíve written, or youíre deliberately trying to misquote me. Lets not do that please.

What I basically meant was that no one is going to show me another functional move that Iíve not seen (in some form) before and that Iíve experienced being hit, kicked and grappled in just about every way that a person can be.

Now, did you see anything wrong with that? Perhaps I can try and clarify that some more if you're still having problems with what I'm saying here.


Quote:


Sounds to me like you never sank your teeth into what you claim to know everything about.





Perhaps if you actually had correctly read or interpreted what I actually said and was meaning, youíd have a different opinion. But you and everyone else are welcome to your opinion nonetheless.


Quote:


I could be wrong, but who's to say given that internet chatter has even less merit than sh1t talking. And name calling - dude, I hope that was just a moment of frustration and not you showing your real stripes.




Damn bro, youíre blowing my comment about hippies way out of proportion. It was an off the cuff remark that youíre blowing WAY the f*ck out. And no, Iím not frustrated at all. But itís clear to see that YOU are. Trying to clarify remarks on the internet takes way more time than Iím willing to give so try and understand.

You must be a hippie right? Apparently Iíve stuck a nerve (imagine that, lol?!). Iíve got nothing against hippies. But would you categorize yourself to begin with?

Quote:


What were you implying? That if a martial artist doesn't shave his head and wear Tapout(c) shorts that he's a hippie?





No, I was implying that people who believe in chi, chakras, chi-energy drills and other such things are often hippies. I believe those things to be bull$hit. Thus, I spoke of hippy bull$hit.

Apparently you don't buy into hippie bull$hit either (if I'm not misreading you that is. That's always possible ya know )

Now if youíre just talking about body mechanics, weight transference and balance, thatís another story. But as you know, there are a thundering herd of folks out there who believe in magic and faeries. THAT is what Iím talking about.

If thatís you or NOT you, you donít have the right to not be offended.


Quote:


Hippie carries a negative conotation for me, and I think that pinning it on WC guys because they supposedly don't work it as hard as you is a misguided and sheltered opinion.





Those are your issues man. Donít project your ďstuffĒ onto others, ok? Youíre blowing things out of proportion because of a knee-jerk reaction to what Iíve said.


Quote:


I've got my grievances with wrestling, mate, but I keep them to myself because i'm damn aware that my limited experience with it does not make my opinions of it the truth.
Sorry bro, I would just expect more from you.






With your misconceptions, itís a wonder why you donít automatically think less of damn near anyone bro.

How about re-reading and thinking a little deeper into whatís been said, realizing that people say sh*t off the cuff, and trying not to be hypocritical, K? I mean, Iím quite sure youíre perfect, right?


ashe-higgs wrote

Quote:

Malaysia





Cool. That would explain a lot.



Quote:

well, you've never met my Sifu.





Right. Would I know him from anywhere? Where is he from? Whatís his background?



Quote:


come on john. be reasonable. that's like saying "i know you are but what am i?".





It was a bad joke really, but itís not that unreasonable. One or several of you might learn something.



Quote:


i qualified my statement by saying "the guys i've played with so far". that's guys about my age, who are either high school coaches now, or maybe were division one guys when they wrestled regularly. and i also was careful to say " just pummeling".





Fair enough.


Quote:


if i use the same logic on you, i could say "why don't you show me how good your greco/roman game is by seeing what you can do against ernesto hoost, and if you get ktfo, then greco/roman is no good."





Point taken. I misread what you had written.

It would be more accurate to watch a couple of guys, peers of sorts (same age, height, weight, experience) fight. One guy does chi-sao and the other guy wrestles in the clinch. Then we watch THEM fight each other. That would be more telling.



Quote:


i don't claim to be at that level just yet. i'll be entering my first full contact fight this july, and then from there i plan to pursue it as far as i can take it. at 31 i don't know how far that will be.

if i can find anyone with open mat nights in my area, you can bet i'll be down there playing my game against the bjj guys and anyone else who'll play with me, so i can get better.





Thatís a great attitude bro. You most certainly WILL improve with that frame of mind. Iím no different.


-John


PS: Ain't this FUN folks??! Just like old times.....

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#344623 - 06/04/07 08:35 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Posts: 1163
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#344624 - 06/04/07 09:27 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Pretty much


-John

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#344625 - 06/04/07 09:55 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

Right. Would I know him from anywhere? Where is he from? Whatís his background?




i hate to keep tooting this horn, but since you ask...

my Sifu was born and raised in the Chinese community of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He learned his father's art from the time he was about 12 or so, and competed in many full contact fights, including against thai and burmese boxers in open competitions. In 1978 he and his cousin Jimmy were the Selengore State full contact champions in the heavyweight division. (My Sifu was super heavyweight and Jimmy was light heavy) My Sifu holds (or held) the record for having his longest fight that year last a mere 40 seconds.
Jimmy also had an open challenge printed in the Chinese language newspapers for years. in short, they're both bad assed muther f*cker$.
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#344626 - 06/05/07 07:12 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I love guys like that. They always make the best folks to train with. Where's he at now? In the States?

Again, I'm not into "challenge matches" but I do enjoy training. If he's ever in my neck of the woods and I have some time, I may check it out. I'm NOT into driving half way across the state however to train with someone who is into something completely outside of my training philosophy. That's just ridiculous. I mean, good training is one thing but going out of my way to prove a point is a little absurd. But who knows.

Remember, my posts here represent just MY experiences. Have your OWN. I would never suggest otherwise.


-John

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#344627 - 06/05/07 01:58 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
John- I understand where you are coming from now all is good. No one should argue about opinions. I just look at things from a position that wing chun has alot more in it than is usually seen or taught so I feel I need to stand up for wing chun a bit. For example most people have never seen what in known as body chi sao or shoulder chi sau because Yip Man didnt teach it and most wing chun comes via Yip Man. These chi sau platforms teach the wing chun throws and sweeps and how to defend against throws and sweeps including how to use your body to defend againt close body throws. Wing chun also teaches many kneeling attacks and includes leg picks. This is one way you can tell how well someone knows wing chun. If they dont move from high to low and from very close body to outside if their body is locked and tight vs loose and flexible. Most wing chun you see is of the locked and tight variety.

To get back on track in the old days we used to train blindfolded chi sau chi gerk and if we lost contact we had to establish the bridge while blindfolded usually via a punch or a kick. We did have our share of blood and broken bones but you learned how to cover at all times and how to react to the slightest sensation. If anyone ever runs into some of the old timers that trained this you will see some extremly fast and loose, meaning no tension at all, fighters. Today risk of lawsuits has stopped most of this type of training I think.


Edited by donchisau (06/05/07 01:59 PM)

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#344628 - 06/05/07 05:22 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Dang, Don - that's really interesting stuff. I see your point about the blindfold now. Just didn't think anyone was crazy enough to take it that far anymore!
What WC styles utilize the kneeling attacks, leg picks and throws? I have also heard that WC has chin na, which is also missing from Ip Man's teachings.

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#344629 - 06/05/07 08:05 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata, WC uses chin na or some say kum na. My last teacher taught me his families wing chun that decends from Leung Jans student Chan Kwai,called Lo Kwai as well. He taught me the kneelong attacks etc but Yip Man taught the kneeling horse to a couple of his early students as well. It also appears in other wing chun families like YKS. I cant say how deep or involved they get into the kneeling attacks leg and ankle picks etc. I am including a link to a Ku Lo wing chun youtube vid. At about 2 minutes into the vid you will see some wrist locks and throws demo'd its not much but its the only vid of wing chun throwing I have seen in public. Ku Lo wing chun is the version of wing chun Leung Jan taught just before his death,well 3 to 4 years before he died in his home village. This wing chun style doesnt have the 3 forms but is taught as san sik or seperate techniques. The begining of the vid shows some of these done in a linked pattern.

I asked if you were a student of Phil Nearings because this type of blindfolded chi sau that was trained there in the late 80s and early 90s.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvY5yV6vgs


Edited by donchisau (06/05/07 08:09 PM)

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#344630 - 06/06/07 01:59 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
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John,

he lives in new york but travels extensively to give wrkshops both abroad and domestically.

we have a satellite group in durham, NC. the guys there are very new and so it wouldn't be worth your time to go check them out, but my Sifu will be back in september for another workshop.
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#344631 - 06/09/07 03:32 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
staticman Offline
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Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 15
thought i'd add my two penn'eth for what its worth.
interesting and enjoyable forum-some of you guys get really het up-i think some of this shows how diverse wc really is as a ma

ashe_higgs: i fully agree with what you and some other posters (donchisau) have said about chi sau.
thanks for putting the vid on for us to see. i may be misjudging as difficult to determine exactly so no disrespect intended but my thoughts on it are:
-we would not train wc/chi sau like this as your arms seem too wide and far apart and away from centre line- if someone was taking me that wide i would immediately change inside to regain centre and if they didn't respond try to strike through; related to this is that your energy is not obviously going forward? i've not heard the term spinning so cannot comment, can you describe. good luck in the fights, keep us posted on your progress

Jkogas: i find alot of your posts very interesting and useful and fully accept that you have found styles/techniques that suit you but don't understand your downer on wc and chi sau. in my very humble opinion wc is about closing the distance and moving in to short punching and then elbow/knee striking (ieclinch) range. chi sau is very relevent to this as it trains this progression. and as stated above energy is going forward and elbows are always in to protect centre line. admiittedly a skilled grappler/wrestler may prevent this and counter successfully, but likewise a skilled wc attack could lay a grappler out with an elbow strike before he can counter- as ever this depends on the skills of the fighter not the style per se. i don't know what pummelling is so cannot coment, any descriptions.

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#344632 - 06/09/07 03:05 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: staticman]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
static,

i liq chuan has it's own take on things. our sticky hand is not the same as WC sticky hand.

spinning hands is similar to what bagua calls rou shou.

none of the video clips i posted actually show any of our sticky hand, just variations on spinning.

ILC doesn't really focus on the center line, the center of mass is our emphasis, also we don't focus on just forward movement, but being able to apply force in any direction.

too much more i can't get into because it would require us to be able to touch so you could feel what i'm talking about.


Edited by ashe_higgs (06/09/07 03:13 PM)
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#344633 - 06/09/07 07:56 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
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Do you guys do spinning hnds blindfolded?

BTW, my sihing recently made his triumphant return from ICU. He came back mopping the floor with other dudes, with his eyes closed!

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#344634 - 06/10/07 02:03 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
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ICU, intensive care unit?
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#344635 - 06/10/07 04:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
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john,

here's a clip with a fighter who demonstrates excellent real time sticky hand skills (jorge, the smaller fighter)

ray v. jorge

i should note that he only controls his oppenets hands and not his mass. what we would call "fend".

we have four levels in our training, "flow", "fend", "control" and "jam and freeze".


Edited by ashe_higgs (06/10/07 04:13 PM)
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#344636 - 06/10/07 11:33 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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For some reason I couldn't view it. Try re-linking to it.


-John

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#344637 - 06/11/07 10:19 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
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Loc: Bellingham, WA
Yes, that ICU - sorry.

I couldn't see the vid either. Very curious though!

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#344638 - 06/11/07 05:01 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
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Edited for porn links.

My apologies to the young horndogs.


Edited by oldman (06/21/07 11:21 PM)

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#344639 - 06/12/07 12:33 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
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Wow, that was good stuff! Especially for kimbo fights.

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#344640 - 06/12/07 07:05 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Haven't seen it yet but does Jorge train chi-sao?



Ok, I saw it and what I saw was nothing but some relatively decent boxing with a little muay Thai influence coming on the knees and the neck clinch.

So now boxers are chi-sao practitioners? Is that your stance? I'm just trying to see how you spin around into your favor with chi-sao.

I mean, DAMN! lol

Even if you were, it still doesn't reinforce the pro chi-sao argument nor does it take away from my original point - which is, there are more effective ways of training the close range than chi-sao.



-John


Edited by JKogas (06/12/07 07:13 AM)

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#344641 - 06/12/07 08:14 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Edited for porn links.

My apologies to the young horndogs.




Very nice Ashe. Jorge's use of chi-sao/boxing is very similar to mine. Saw a few bong-sau's, and even some elbow checking, like I learned in AKK.


Edited by oldman (06/21/07 11:22 PM)

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#344642 - 06/12/07 12:55 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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What Jorge was doing wasn't chi sau, I think we all know that (unless someone is in serious denial), but there were skills present that chi sau is designed to cultivate. He DID successfully bong lap his opponent (the equivalent of pulling off an armbar in a real situation IMO - not easy), he DID use the same type of footwork that WC guys who fight in MMA comps use (Alan Orr, Aaron Baum) and he DID keep his center line closed off very effectively.

Yes, it does look like excellent boxing. ANY style (sans grappling) will look that way when two guys consciously square off against each other without the desire to actually kill the opponent off.

I guess there's no way to really explain the methodology behind a kung fu training regimen (or alot of FMA). It either works for you or it doesn't and obviously it doesn't work for you. However, I can't help but wonder if you were taught, like so many unfortunately, that the rigid drilling of forms and 'perfect' techniques is not what really happens when the s#1t goes down. You perfect the techniques in forms, apply them to variable situations in chi sau and learn to adjust and improvise with them in sparring.

I don't know or understand how this message is lost on so many wing chun people, and I agree that alot of what is taught is useless. But even if you don't use your whole repartoire of chi sau attacks in 'reality', it is a fun and interesting format to train in (for me) and it has helped immensely to increase my spatial awareness and reflexes.

'More effective' = more effective for some.

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#344643 - 06/21/07 06:51 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
futsaowingchun Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: New Jersey
I think Blind fold Chi sao has its merits.For one it relies totally on your sensitivity.Which you can develope to a high degree.Relying on your eyes alone is much slower and can easly be fooled.But your sence of touch can not be fooled.When your very close to your opponent its much better to rely on feeling then on what the eyes tell you.At a distance of course you have no choice,but when you getinto close range its to your advantage to rely in your sensitivey.If your other opponent does not have this training it will be very hard for him to hit you.
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#344644 - 06/21/07 09:59 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: futsaowingchun]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

What Jorge was doing wasn't chi sau, I think we all know that (unless someone is in serious denial), but there were skills present that chi sau is designed to cultivate.





Right there is a point that I have been harping on. In my opinion, the skills the chi-sao is designed to develop are developed better by doing basic boxing and wrestling. Thatís all Iíve been saying.

Iíd be willing to bet that ďJorgeĒ here doesnít do any chi-sao training.


Quote:


He DID successfully bong lap his opponent (the equivalent of pulling off an armbar in a real situation IMO - not easy), he DID use the same type of footwork that WC guys who fight in MMA comps use (Alan Orr, Aaron Baum) and he DID keep his center line closed off very effectively.





Iíve been looking for the bong-lop and havenít seen it anywhere. My guess is it wasnít even intentional. Things like that from guys like this usually arenít. The footwork and closed off center line are nothing unique to wing chun either. Did that even look like wing chun to you guys or are you reaching a bit here?


Quote:


Yes, it does look like excellent boxing. ANY style (sans grappling) will look that way when two guys consciously square off against each other without the desire to actually kill the opponent off.





HTF does desire to kill change the structure here? Ever killed anyone with the empty hand?


Quote:


I guess there's no way to really explain the methodology behind a kung fu training regimen (or alot of FMA). It either works for you or it doesn't and obviously it doesn't work for you. However, I can't help but wonder if you were taught, like so many unfortunately, that the rigid drilling of forms and 'perfect' techniques is not what really happens when the s#1t goes down. You perfect the techniques in forms, apply them to variable situations in chi sau and learn to adjust and improvise with them in sparring.





Trust me. I understand completely about how the drilling of forms and perfect techniques doesnít ďcome outĒ in real fights. The problem with a lot of chi sao and hubud practice are the bad habits that get ingrained deeply.

And itís always that people are either ďtaught wrongĒ (not implying that, that is what you were saying) or that the ďmastersĒ can pull stuff like that off easily.

I have yet to see these masters do anything but talk about these things on internet forums.


Quote:


I don't know or understand how this message is lost on so many wing chun people, and I agree that alot of what is taught is useless. But even if you don't use your whole repartoire of chi sau attacks in 'reality', it is a fun and interesting format to train in (for me) and it has helped immensely to increase my spatial awareness and reflexes.





All that matters is what YOU gain from training. But I would tell all of you to train with good wrestlers whenever you get the chance. Youíll feel a difference and well as better see what Iím trying to impart here. Donít take my word for anything.


Quote:

'More effective' = more effective for some.





Sure, everything is relative. Not everyone has been exposed to high level wrestling. Not everyone has had access to it. Its tough as well. Very hard, tough training with HUGE demands on conditioning. Its pretty easy to kick back, put the blind fold on, do some chi-sao and ďfeel the energyĒ. Until you get tossed on your bean once or twice, that is. Thats when that sort of stuff gets dropped faster than a dress on prom night.


-John

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#344645 - 06/22/07 10:59 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
futsaowingchun Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: New Jersey
I think that the key..Being exposed and training with high level guys.You can't train in the comfort zone.That will take you a life time to get anywhere.
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#344646 - 06/25/07 04:12 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: futsaowingchun]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
here john, check this out!

if you don't like this, then there's no hope for you!

make sure to watch it to the end, since there's some stuff at the begining and some at the end with stuff in between that won't interest you.
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#344647 - 06/25/07 07:29 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Yep, theres no hope for me.

I have to admit that I didn't watch ALL of it. I felt my time would be wasted by doing so this morning. Perhaps later. Though I doubt my opinion will change much.


No, I didn't care much for it. Still way to much of a demo for me.

Sorry. Just the way I feel.


-John

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#344648 - 06/25/07 03:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: New Jersey
I met this guy many years ago.He used to teach at a Buddhist temple in up sate NY. I did some chi sao with him which I think he called Spinning hands.The sifu was pretty good.the students I did not think very much of at the time.I did not see anyone thrown around like on the demo als he was not able to do that with me anyway.
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#344649 - 06/25/07 03:12 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: futsaowingchun]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

he was not able to do that with me anyway.




can you elaborate?
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#344650 - 06/26/07 02:27 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: New Jersey
sure...I ment when the sifu was training spinning hands with his students it did nnot look like what I saw on the clip.There was no throwing anyone around like I saw on the U-tube clip.
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#344651 - 06/27/07 02:24 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

I have yet to see these masters do anything but talk about these things on internet forums.




I'll completely agree to that.

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