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#344641 - 06/12/07 08:14 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Edited for porn links.

My apologies to the young horndogs.




Very nice Ashe. Jorge's use of chi-sao/boxing is very similar to mine. Saw a few bong-sau's, and even some elbow checking, like I learned in AKK.


Edited by oldman (06/21/07 11:22 PM)

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#344642 - 06/12/07 12:55 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
What Jorge was doing wasn't chi sau, I think we all know that (unless someone is in serious denial), but there were skills present that chi sau is designed to cultivate. He DID successfully bong lap his opponent (the equivalent of pulling off an armbar in a real situation IMO - not easy), he DID use the same type of footwork that WC guys who fight in MMA comps use (Alan Orr, Aaron Baum) and he DID keep his center line closed off very effectively.

Yes, it does look like excellent boxing. ANY style (sans grappling) will look that way when two guys consciously square off against each other without the desire to actually kill the opponent off.

I guess there's no way to really explain the methodology behind a kung fu training regimen (or alot of FMA). It either works for you or it doesn't and obviously it doesn't work for you. However, I can't help but wonder if you were taught, like so many unfortunately, that the rigid drilling of forms and 'perfect' techniques is not what really happens when the s#1t goes down. You perfect the techniques in forms, apply them to variable situations in chi sau and learn to adjust and improvise with them in sparring.

I don't know or understand how this message is lost on so many wing chun people, and I agree that alot of what is taught is useless. But even if you don't use your whole repartoire of chi sau attacks in 'reality', it is a fun and interesting format to train in (for me) and it has helped immensely to increase my spatial awareness and reflexes.

'More effective' = more effective for some.

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#344643 - 06/21/07 06:51 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 105
Loc: New Jersey
I think Blind fold Chi sao has its merits.For one it relies totally on your sensitivity.Which you can develope to a high degree.Relying on your eyes alone is much slower and can easly be fooled.But your sence of touch can not be fooled.When your very close to your opponent its much better to rely on feeling then on what the eyes tell you.At a distance of course you have no choice,but when you getinto close range its to your advantage to rely in your sensitivey.If your other opponent does not have this training it will be very hard for him to hit you.
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#344644 - 06/21/07 09:59 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: futsaowingchun]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

What Jorge was doing wasn't chi sau, I think we all know that (unless someone is in serious denial), but there were skills present that chi sau is designed to cultivate.





Right there is a point that I have been harping on. In my opinion, the skills the chi-sao is designed to develop are developed better by doing basic boxing and wrestling. That’s all I’ve been saying.

I’d be willing to bet that “Jorge” here doesn’t do any chi-sao training.


Quote:


He DID successfully bong lap his opponent (the equivalent of pulling off an armbar in a real situation IMO - not easy), he DID use the same type of footwork that WC guys who fight in MMA comps use (Alan Orr, Aaron Baum) and he DID keep his center line closed off very effectively.





I’ve been looking for the bong-lop and haven’t seen it anywhere. My guess is it wasn’t even intentional. Things like that from guys like this usually aren’t. The footwork and closed off center line are nothing unique to wing chun either. Did that even look like wing chun to you guys or are you reaching a bit here?


Quote:


Yes, it does look like excellent boxing. ANY style (sans grappling) will look that way when two guys consciously square off against each other without the desire to actually kill the opponent off.





HTF does desire to kill change the structure here? Ever killed anyone with the empty hand?


Quote:


I guess there's no way to really explain the methodology behind a kung fu training regimen (or alot of FMA). It either works for you or it doesn't and obviously it doesn't work for you. However, I can't help but wonder if you were taught, like so many unfortunately, that the rigid drilling of forms and 'perfect' techniques is not what really happens when the s#1t goes down. You perfect the techniques in forms, apply them to variable situations in chi sau and learn to adjust and improvise with them in sparring.





Trust me. I understand completely about how the drilling of forms and perfect techniques doesn’t “come out” in real fights. The problem with a lot of chi sao and hubud practice are the bad habits that get ingrained deeply.

And it’s always that people are either “taught wrong” (not implying that, that is what you were saying) or that the “masters” can pull stuff like that off easily.

I have yet to see these masters do anything but talk about these things on internet forums.


Quote:


I don't know or understand how this message is lost on so many wing chun people, and I agree that alot of what is taught is useless. But even if you don't use your whole repartoire of chi sau attacks in 'reality', it is a fun and interesting format to train in (for me) and it has helped immensely to increase my spatial awareness and reflexes.





All that matters is what YOU gain from training. But I would tell all of you to train with good wrestlers whenever you get the chance. You’ll feel a difference and well as better see what I’m trying to impart here. Don’t take my word for anything.


Quote:

'More effective' = more effective for some.





Sure, everything is relative. Not everyone has been exposed to high level wrestling. Not everyone has had access to it. Its tough as well. Very hard, tough training with HUGE demands on conditioning. Its pretty easy to kick back, put the blind fold on, do some chi-sao and “feel the energy”. Until you get tossed on your bean once or twice, that is. Thats when that sort of stuff gets dropped faster than a dress on prom night.


-John

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#344645 - 06/22/07 10:59 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 105
Loc: New Jersey
I think that the key..Being exposed and training with high level guys.You can't train in the comfort zone.That will take you a life time to get anywhere.
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http://www.futsaowingchun.info

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#344646 - 06/25/07 04:12 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: futsaowingchun]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
here john, check this out!

if you don't like this, then there's no hope for you!

make sure to watch it to the end, since there's some stuff at the begining and some at the end with stuff in between that won't interest you.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344647 - 06/25/07 07:29 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yep, theres no hope for me.

I have to admit that I didn't watch ALL of it. I felt my time would be wasted by doing so this morning. Perhaps later. Though I doubt my opinion will change much.


No, I didn't care much for it. Still way to much of a demo for me.

Sorry. Just the way I feel.


-John

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#344648 - 06/25/07 03:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 105
Loc: New Jersey
I met this guy many years ago.He used to teach at a Buddhist temple in up sate NY. I did some chi sao with him which I think he called Spinning hands.The sifu was pretty good.the students I did not think very much of at the time.I did not see anyone thrown around like on the demo als he was not able to do that with me anyway.
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#344649 - 06/25/07 03:12 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: futsaowingchun]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

he was not able to do that with me anyway.




can you elaborate?
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344650 - 06/26/07 02:27 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
futsaowingchun Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 105
Loc: New Jersey
sure...I ment when the sifu was training spinning hands with his students it did nnot look like what I saw on the clip.There was no throwing anyone around like I saw on the U-tube clip.
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http://www.futsaowingchun.info

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