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#344621 - 06/04/07 04:39 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

Right.

Man I just have to ask where it is that you guys have been hiding?




malaysia

Quote:

Just my luck that I was never introduced to the top notch folks.




well, you've never met my Sifu.



Quote:


You're not far from Vegas I think. You should get down to Legends and show them what they've been missing.




come on john. be reasonable. that's like saying "i know you are but what am i?".

i qualified my statement by saying "the guys i've played with so far". that's guys about my age, who are either high school coaches now, or maybe were division one guys when they wrestled regularly. and i also was careful to say " just pummeling".

if i use the same logic on you, i could say "why don't you show me how good your greco/roman game is by seeing what you can do against ernesto hoost, and if you get ktfo, then greco/roman is no good."

i don't claim to be at that level just yet. i'll be entering my first full contact fight this july, and then from there i plan to pursue it as far as i can take it. at 31 i don't know how far that will be.

if i can find anyone with open mat nights in my area, you can bet i'll be down there playing my game against the bjj guys and anyone else who'll play with me, so i can get better.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344622 - 06/04/07 06:32 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Donchisau wrote:
Quote:


When you talk about elbow distance the standard is 1 to 1.5 fist lenghts away are you advocating elbow right next to the body? I have trained with professional boxers and some very good wrestlers but I havent seen anyone the advocates keeping the elbows right next to the body.





Greco-Roman wrestling in particular teaches elbows in tight to the body. Thus is the need for hand fighting. Youíre taught never to reach and to move your body in close to your opponent. This is practically chest to chest. That is fundamental.

Freestyleís structure is lower and you can reach a bit more. However, elbows in is still a fundamental rule of solid structure.


Quote:


I would like to see a video of this is you can refer me to one. Chi sau trains attributes but it not fighting so I dont understand about someone having a good chi sau game.





Watch any of the myriad of chi-sao ďsparringĒ sessions that you see all over youtube. Or, one of those linked to on this very thread. Thatís what I mean by chi-sao ďgameď. Excuse my vernacular.

I realize that chi-sao develops attributes. But isnít it ironic or, perhaps a misspeak that you said that chi-sao trains attributes but not fighting? Am I reading that correctly?

Pummeling teaches attributes and fighting. Thatís among the points Iíve been making.


Quote:


Being good at chi sau has very little bearing on how well one fights. There are many that play chi sau games infact there are even some chi sau attacks that while they may work in chi sau might cost you your teeth in a fight.





I would agree with you here.


Quote:

As for wrestling you may find the same attributes trained in chi sau are already trained in wrestling after all it is all about energy usage.





I understand that completely and was a point I was making in reference to pummeling. Iím simply stating my opinion that the pummeling drills used in wrestling are more functional / practical for fighting than chi-sao. Thatís it.


Quote:


Not some hippie thing but for example when someone pulls your arm how do you respond that is a response to energy. If you are pushed how do you respond? That is what chi sau is trying to teach how to respond to different types of energy or to stay non hippie how to respond to different types of attacks both grappling and punching.





Iíve had experience with chi-sao so I understand where youíre coming from. Itís not like Iím just taking something that I know nothing about and slamming it because Iíve got nothing else to do. I just disagree with the idea that chi-sao can develop anyoneís attributes for fighting in the way that pummeling can. People get bent out of shape because Iím stating my opinions.

Iím in North Carolina by the way. Thanks.



ShikataGaNai wrote
Quote:


Kogas - I respect your opinions and expertise, despite how hard headed they are.




Listen man, whatís being hard headed about stating your observations and experience? Iím simply stating those things. Iím also open minded enough to entertain others points of view. NOT open minded to the point where my brain falls out.

Iím also open and friendly enough to train with anyone so that they can teach me and possibly show me the error of my ways. Thatís how Iíve learned a LOT of things.

Remember, Iím just into whatís functional and proven. If it works, why on EARTH would I be against it, right? Follow the logic? Iíd still be practicing chi-sao if I thought it was worth doing. I donít. Iím not alone.


Quote:


But I think you've out done yourself this time. Let me review the facts - you're 42, have been training for 30 years and have tried every art under the sun...





Donít misquote me bro. I never said I have tried every art under the sun. What was it exactly that I said again?? Re-read what I wrote.


Quote:


why should I except you as an expert on ANYTHING then?





You shouldnít. I never asked you to.



Quote:


Even in 30 years, I don't think most MA'ists can truthfully say they've mastered more than one or two arts.





Never said that either. Either I really got you bent out of shape with what Iíve written, or youíre deliberately trying to misquote me. Lets not do that please.

What I basically meant was that no one is going to show me another functional move that Iíve not seen (in some form) before and that Iíve experienced being hit, kicked and grappled in just about every way that a person can be.

Now, did you see anything wrong with that? Perhaps I can try and clarify that some more if you're still having problems with what I'm saying here.


Quote:


Sounds to me like you never sank your teeth into what you claim to know everything about.





Perhaps if you actually had correctly read or interpreted what I actually said and was meaning, youíd have a different opinion. But you and everyone else are welcome to your opinion nonetheless.


Quote:


I could be wrong, but who's to say given that internet chatter has even less merit than sh1t talking. And name calling - dude, I hope that was just a moment of frustration and not you showing your real stripes.




Damn bro, youíre blowing my comment about hippies way out of proportion. It was an off the cuff remark that youíre blowing WAY the f*ck out. And no, Iím not frustrated at all. But itís clear to see that YOU are. Trying to clarify remarks on the internet takes way more time than Iím willing to give so try and understand.

You must be a hippie right? Apparently Iíve stuck a nerve (imagine that, lol?!). Iíve got nothing against hippies. But would you categorize yourself to begin with?

Quote:


What were you implying? That if a martial artist doesn't shave his head and wear Tapout(c) shorts that he's a hippie?





No, I was implying that people who believe in chi, chakras, chi-energy drills and other such things are often hippies. I believe those things to be bull$hit. Thus, I spoke of hippy bull$hit.

Apparently you don't buy into hippie bull$hit either (if I'm not misreading you that is. That's always possible ya know )

Now if youíre just talking about body mechanics, weight transference and balance, thatís another story. But as you know, there are a thundering herd of folks out there who believe in magic and faeries. THAT is what Iím talking about.

If thatís you or NOT you, you donít have the right to not be offended.


Quote:


Hippie carries a negative conotation for me, and I think that pinning it on WC guys because they supposedly don't work it as hard as you is a misguided and sheltered opinion.





Those are your issues man. Donít project your ďstuffĒ onto others, ok? Youíre blowing things out of proportion because of a knee-jerk reaction to what Iíve said.


Quote:


I've got my grievances with wrestling, mate, but I keep them to myself because i'm damn aware that my limited experience with it does not make my opinions of it the truth.
Sorry bro, I would just expect more from you.






With your misconceptions, itís a wonder why you donít automatically think less of damn near anyone bro.

How about re-reading and thinking a little deeper into whatís been said, realizing that people say sh*t off the cuff, and trying not to be hypocritical, K? I mean, Iím quite sure youíre perfect, right?


ashe-higgs wrote

Quote:

Malaysia





Cool. That would explain a lot.



Quote:

well, you've never met my Sifu.





Right. Would I know him from anywhere? Where is he from? Whatís his background?



Quote:


come on john. be reasonable. that's like saying "i know you are but what am i?".





It was a bad joke really, but itís not that unreasonable. One or several of you might learn something.



Quote:


i qualified my statement by saying "the guys i've played with so far". that's guys about my age, who are either high school coaches now, or maybe were division one guys when they wrestled regularly. and i also was careful to say " just pummeling".





Fair enough.


Quote:


if i use the same logic on you, i could say "why don't you show me how good your greco/roman game is by seeing what you can do against ernesto hoost, and if you get ktfo, then greco/roman is no good."





Point taken. I misread what you had written.

It would be more accurate to watch a couple of guys, peers of sorts (same age, height, weight, experience) fight. One guy does chi-sao and the other guy wrestles in the clinch. Then we watch THEM fight each other. That would be more telling.



Quote:


i don't claim to be at that level just yet. i'll be entering my first full contact fight this july, and then from there i plan to pursue it as far as i can take it. at 31 i don't know how far that will be.

if i can find anyone with open mat nights in my area, you can bet i'll be down there playing my game against the bjj guys and anyone else who'll play with me, so i can get better.





Thatís a great attitude bro. You most certainly WILL improve with that frame of mind. Iím no different.


-John


PS: Ain't this FUN folks??! Just like old times.....

Top
#344623 - 06/04/07 08:35 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA

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#344624 - 06/04/07 09:27 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Pretty much


-John

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#344625 - 06/04/07 09:55 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

Right. Would I know him from anywhere? Where is he from? Whatís his background?




i hate to keep tooting this horn, but since you ask...

my Sifu was born and raised in the Chinese community of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He learned his father's art from the time he was about 12 or so, and competed in many full contact fights, including against thai and burmese boxers in open competitions. In 1978 he and his cousin Jimmy were the Selengore State full contact champions in the heavyweight division. (My Sifu was super heavyweight and Jimmy was light heavy) My Sifu holds (or held) the record for having his longest fight that year last a mere 40 seconds.
Jimmy also had an open challenge printed in the Chinese language newspapers for years. in short, they're both bad assed muther f*cker$.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344626 - 06/05/07 07:12 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I love guys like that. They always make the best folks to train with. Where's he at now? In the States?

Again, I'm not into "challenge matches" but I do enjoy training. If he's ever in my neck of the woods and I have some time, I may check it out. I'm NOT into driving half way across the state however to train with someone who is into something completely outside of my training philosophy. That's just ridiculous. I mean, good training is one thing but going out of my way to prove a point is a little absurd. But who knows.

Remember, my posts here represent just MY experiences. Have your OWN. I would never suggest otherwise.


-John

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#344627 - 06/05/07 01:58 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
John- I understand where you are coming from now all is good. No one should argue about opinions. I just look at things from a position that wing chun has alot more in it than is usually seen or taught so I feel I need to stand up for wing chun a bit. For example most people have never seen what in known as body chi sao or shoulder chi sau because Yip Man didnt teach it and most wing chun comes via Yip Man. These chi sau platforms teach the wing chun throws and sweeps and how to defend against throws and sweeps including how to use your body to defend againt close body throws. Wing chun also teaches many kneeling attacks and includes leg picks. This is one way you can tell how well someone knows wing chun. If they dont move from high to low and from very close body to outside if their body is locked and tight vs loose and flexible. Most wing chun you see is of the locked and tight variety.

To get back on track in the old days we used to train blindfolded chi sau chi gerk and if we lost contact we had to establish the bridge while blindfolded usually via a punch or a kick. We did have our share of blood and broken bones but you learned how to cover at all times and how to react to the slightest sensation. If anyone ever runs into some of the old timers that trained this you will see some extremly fast and loose, meaning no tension at all, fighters. Today risk of lawsuits has stopped most of this type of training I think.


Edited by donchisau (06/05/07 01:59 PM)

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#344628 - 06/05/07 05:22 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Dang, Don - that's really interesting stuff. I see your point about the blindfold now. Just didn't think anyone was crazy enough to take it that far anymore!
What WC styles utilize the kneeling attacks, leg picks and throws? I have also heard that WC has chin na, which is also missing from Ip Man's teachings.

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#344629 - 06/05/07 08:05 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata, WC uses chin na or some say kum na. My last teacher taught me his families wing chun that decends from Leung Jans student Chan Kwai,called Lo Kwai as well. He taught me the kneelong attacks etc but Yip Man taught the kneeling horse to a couple of his early students as well. It also appears in other wing chun families like YKS. I cant say how deep or involved they get into the kneeling attacks leg and ankle picks etc. I am including a link to a Ku Lo wing chun youtube vid. At about 2 minutes into the vid you will see some wrist locks and throws demo'd its not much but its the only vid of wing chun throwing I have seen in public. Ku Lo wing chun is the version of wing chun Leung Jan taught just before his death,well 3 to 4 years before he died in his home village. This wing chun style doesnt have the 3 forms but is taught as san sik or seperate techniques. The begining of the vid shows some of these done in a linked pattern.

I asked if you were a student of Phil Nearings because this type of blindfolded chi sau that was trained there in the late 80s and early 90s.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvY5yV6vgs


Edited by donchisau (06/05/07 08:09 PM)

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#344630 - 06/06/07 01:59 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
John,

he lives in new york but travels extensively to give wrkshops both abroad and domestically.

we have a satellite group in durham, NC. the guys there are very new and so it wouldn't be worth your time to go check them out, but my Sifu will be back in september for another workshop.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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