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#344611 - 06/03/07 10:26 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by JKogas -

Quote:

Maybe it's not bad kung fu, but its definitely bad wrestling.




Interesting. I have never considered ChiSao to be 'wrestling' of any kind. Nor is it strictly striking, IMHO. I believe it is something in between - an isolation excersize to develop "mid-range" sensitivity. I have found it useful against many different types of fighters, especially in stand-up. I do think in the clinch, ChiSao loses it's effectiveness compared to other, more specific clinch-training. But once on the ground, it again can be useful from the high mount, or defending from the guard.

It is a specific range tool. Works sometimes. Others, not.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#344612 - 06/03/07 11:49 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
It's also a matter of training your 'bridge seeking' skills very hard. This is the most crucial element to WC for combat AND ring effectiveness. I don't understand why it's so understated in so many WC schools. Improper bridging is what got Scott Baker in trouble in the first place in UFC 2 (if we really have to go there ) - dude was asking for the hands, which is something you only do in chi sau.
The clinch does pose an interesting problem - but in a no rules situation, it can be circumvented. You can use cup jarn (elbows), twist the guy's nuts, bite his frickin' ear... clinch range is a bad place to be for both fighters in an unsupervised fight. Remembering that if they're holding you, they're holding themselves can present many options. However, none of these tactics can be utilized in the ring... and i'm going to leave it there before the same old stupid ring vs. street argument kicks in.
Anyway, yes chi sau is a particular range, but a good fighter will know how to get in and out of it and use it really well. Kinda like ground fighting. Only i'm more on board for a style that promotes staying on your feet. That's my preference, mainly because rolling on concrete HURTS and i want to stay out of that position. Yeah, that's bad wrestling, and it's good kung fu. Good kung fu also entails not exchanging punches, not hitting into empty space, not giving the enemy any signals or telegraphing...
it doesn't work out that way some of the time, but training for it raises the success percentage.
And at the end of the day, self defense is about having an advantage, right? That said, is ANY style really useless then? Let's face it - any 'real' fight any of us will ever engage in will most likely NOT be with a fellow MA student.

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#344613 - 06/03/07 03:08 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
John,

it is possible to control the mass from the point of contact. we do it all the time. (the caveat is, of course, there are varying levels of ability and only a few of us have developed any decent level)

the wrestlers i've played with so far couldn't hold their own against me when it came to just pummeling. they just don't understand about controlling the mass the same way.

there are examples of what i would call application of spinning and sticky hand skill that i've seen in mma too. i'll have to look for some clips.

(hell, anytime you slip or parry a punch i call that real time application of spinning/sticky hand)
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#344614 - 06/03/07 07:18 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"Here is an example of "bad mma" from some wing chun guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV7O0nJpGbQ
"

I just watched this finally - good friggin' grief! My sifu would sling my a$$ for fighting this way. This is bad for ANY style - there isn't even a hint of basic principle there. Just two apes slugging away at it.

Guys please, we can drudge examples of crappy fighting in any system off GooTube till we're cut and pasting ourselves into a carpal tunnel state. Lame is lame, so don't pin this kind of crap on WC, or any other style.

Anyway, if you want to get on the 'Tube and see some WC applied in MMA that WORKS (blended with ground fighting of course), search for Alan Orr, Aaron Baum, the Iron Wolves Fighting Team or Chu Sao Lei Wing chun. The guys who train WC and can fight like the best are out there. The difference? They train out of chi sau more than in. It's what any WC student should do after getting chi sau down. Now, that's not to say I don't love a good chi sau - the beauty is i'll be able to do it till the day I die, old and frail... can't say that for sparring

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#344615 - 06/03/07 10:25 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

it is possible to control the mass from the point of contact. we do it all the time. (the caveat is, of course, there are varying levels of ability and only a few of us have developed any decent level)





Of course. I wish only to meet such folks. Perhaps I can learn from them. Still waiting after all these years….


Quote:


the wrestlers i've played with so far couldn't hold their own against me when it came to just pummeling. they just don't understand about controlling the mass the same way.





Then you have something to teach the freestyle and Greco guys. We only thought we knew controlling mass.



-John

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#344616 - 06/04/07 01:02 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
you know i should add, that when it comes to actual application, i'm not gonna stick to you, but i should be making you feel like you want to stick to me, if that makes any sense.

in other words you should move beyond the need to stick to your opponent.
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#344617 - 06/04/07 06:46 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Right.

Man I just have to ask where it is that you guys have been hiding? I mean, you guys that are "really" good with chi-sao. To think that I was doing it wrong all those years... Just my luck that I was never introduced to the top notch folks.

Do you know what this could do for someone's CLINCH game???

I wonder why it is that so many top level clinch guys (like the Couture's of the world) aren't already doing this?? I mean it isn't like no one is aware of chi-sao, ya know? It's not a big secret.

You're not far from Vegas I think. You should get down to Legends and show them what they've been missing.

Makes you wonder. I sure would like to train with you but you're all the way in Phoenix.

Guess I'll have to stay with what I know. Just my luck.


MattJ:

It's not that I'm saying that chi-sao IS "wrestling" but as it's not exactly striking, I lump it into the grappling category. It's my opinion that all things can be reduced to some form of hitting or some form of grappling. Again, just my opinions and definitions of terms.

And for the record (as if it wasn't obvious enough), I still don't buy into chi-sao or any other such hippie energy drills. They may have a marginal use, but as I've mentioned, I've found other things that work infinitely better.

To all
Got a good chi-sao game? Let me know if you're in or near my area. Don't be shy. I want to meet you and train.

Thanks!


-John

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#344618 - 06/04/07 09:56 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

To all
Got a good chi-sao game? Let me know if you're in or near my area. Don't be shy. I want to meet you and train.

Thanks!




lmfao.

thread won
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#344619 - 06/04/07 01:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: crablord]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata watching the elbows and knees is a precontact method. I have never heard anyone extoll watching them when in contact. you may try to control them when in contact but not watch them. I asked if you were phils student because I am from Chicago and am familier with all the different wing chun teachers there and what they teach. knowing your teacher would make it easier to understand your pov.

John I have no idea where you are I am in the Albuquerque NM area I would be more than happy to work out with you if you are anywhere nearby. I do not fully understand your comments about chi sau. There are several different chi sau platforms for example what has been called spinning hands in wing chun is the huen sau platform although it is done tighter i.e. smaller circles. There is rising and sinking platform. Oi and ngoi platform.Longer distance wrist to wrist and very short distance shoulder chi sao as well and then there is the most common platform poon sau rolling that you see on youtube etc. When you talk about elbow distance the standard is 1 to 1.5 fist lenghts away are you advocating elbow right next to the body? I have trained with professional boxers and some very good wrestlers but I havent seen anyone the advocates keeping the elbows right next to the body. I would like to see a video of this is you can refer me to one. Chi sau trains attributes but it not fighting so I dont understand about someone having a good chi sau game. Being good at chi sau has very little bearing on how well one fights. There are many that play chi sau games infact there are even some chi sau attacks that while they may work in chi sau might cost you your teeth in a fight.
As for wrestling you may find the same attributes trained in chi sau are already trained in wrestling after all it is all about energy usage. Not some hippie thing but for example when someone pulls your arm how do you respond that is a response to energy. If you are pushed how do you respond? That is what chi sau is trying to teach how to respond to different types of energy or to stay non hippie how to respond to different types of attacks both grappling and punching.


Edited by donchisau (06/04/07 01:05 PM)

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#344620 - 06/04/07 02:10 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Don - I learned to watch the elbows in MMA and boxing. Elbow movement gives away the intent of the rest of the arm. This is not to say that I actually STARE straight at an opponent's elbows - I use my periferral vision, that 'seeing through' POV that allows me to pick up on movement. Basically, if you're watching the hands, it will be to late by the time one hits you - the elbow moves first, you see. And yes, this practice IS condoned at my WC school (which I choose not to openly pinpoint on the internet, so if you want to discuss who/where and when I train please PM me). I know more or less what I'm talking about. I have a good centerline and am quick and wiley when it comes to engaging and disengaging (either to choi sau position in chi sau, or out of range in sparring).

Kogas - I respect your opinions and expertise, despite how hard headed they are. But I think you've out done yourself this time. Let me review the facts - you're 42, have been training for 30 years and have tried every art under the sun... why should I except you as an expert on ANYTHING then? Even in 30 years, I don't think most MA'ists can truthfully say they've mastered more than one or two arts. Sounds to me like you never sank your teeth into what you claim to know everything about. I could be wrong, but who's to say given that internet chatter has even less merit than sh1t talking. And name calling - dude, I hope that was just a moment of frustration and not you showing your real stripes. What were you implying? That if a martial artist doesn't shave his head and wear Tapout(c) shorts that he's a hippie? Hippie carries a negative conotation for me, and I think that pinning it on WC guys because they supposedly don't work it as hard as you is a misguided and sheltered opinion. I've got my grievances with wrestling, mate, but I keep them to myself because i'm damn aware that my limited experience with it does not make my opinions of it the truth.
Sorry bro, I would just expect more from you.

And this is officially now a derailed thread.

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