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#344601 - 06/02/07 01:56 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ButterflyPalm]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
If he's in my neck of the woods, I may check him out. I'm not however in the habit of challenging folks. Training, that's another story. But I'm not going to walk in on someone's seminar and be disrespectful.

My challenging days are behind me. Everyone has an opinion and are welcome to it. I have my own and a lot of confidence in it. That comes from hard earned experience. I'm sure everyone else feels the same way.

That's what is so good about training ego-free. You're not emotionally crippled when you get your ass handed to you. I've had mine handed to me over the years and is what has led me to where I am now. I've seen and felt about everything one can in martial arts.

A few things I've learned for sure are

1. There are no secrets

2. There are no untouchable masters

3. Bullsheet is alive and well in the martial arts


-John

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#344602 - 06/02/07 02:06 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

I've seen and felt about everything one can in martial arts.




i think that sums up quite a bit. *cough*narrowminded*cough*.

anyway, i'll send you a PM before he's in NC next. i'm not suggesting you challenge anyone, but i think if you go you'll be impressed.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344603 - 06/02/07 05:30 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I've seen and felt about everything one can in martial arts





...in your humble opinion of course....

No, I was certainly not suggesting you challenge him; I do see the problem, however, of turning up and "asking for a lesson"

I only saw it as a good opportunity for you to put your 'opinion' to the test, if the "request" can be sensitively handled. Who knows, chi sao may very well turn out to be as ineffective as you opine it and is good only for compliant demonstrations.

As I am not into chi sao or spinning sao myself, I am qenuinely curious, and coming across someone like you who has a strong opinion on it and Ashe is happy for you to meet his Sifu.......it appears to be a perfect coincidence of circumstances. The last thing I want is to appear as an agent provocateur.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#344604 - 06/02/07 08:30 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


i think that sums up quite a bit. *cough*narrowminded*cough*.





What I meant was, that I have experienced just about every sort of technique that one can experience. It's not like anyone is going to show me a *functional* move that I have never seen before. Do you see what I'm saying now?

That isn't saying that I've sparred with the world's greatest fighters or that *I* am the world's greatest fighter folks. I know otherwise all too well.

And while I would never say that I'm an Olympic level wrestler (or anywhere close), I do know wrestling. Chi sao is not wrestling, by any stretch. And I've had plenty of experience with chi sao.


Quote:


anyway, i'll send you a PM before he's in NC next. i'm not suggesting you challenge anyone, but i think if you go you'll be impressed.





I'm sure he's good at what he does and no, I wasn't inferring that you or anyone else were suggesting that I challenge him. I was just making it clear that, that isn't what I am about.

Personally speaking, I dropped chi sao out of my training regimen a dozen years ago after having practiced it for quite some time. This was in the spirit of daily decrease. When you find things that accomplish the same objectives and do so better, what would be the point of continuing to practice something?

The elbows away from the body are a fundamental NO-NO. We used to practice hu-bud right along with chi sao and mix them together. Hubud was dropped as well again, because of the fundamental flaw of moving the elbows away from the body. It's just "bad wrestling" to do so.

Maybe it's not bad kung fu, but its definitely bad wrestling.



-John

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#344605 - 06/02/07 06:36 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
so how 'bout some good pummeling clips?

and i understand what you mean about maintain the elbows close to the body, but you really can't do that and still act. every time you strike, etc., the elbows are going to move away from the body, so IMO you'd better learn how to use the elbows at all sorts of distances.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344606 - 06/02/07 09:59 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
And you're RIGHT! You can't strike without the elbows moving away from the body. This is exactly the reason that many strikers get taken to the ground in real fights. You've actually made one of my own points.

Speaking about that; obviously you've got to be a HIGHLY disciplined striker to avoid the takedown. You've got to to have a sprawl ready at all times. Even still, it's extremely difficult for most folks to avoid that takedown against a competent wrestler.

And yes you CAN clinch fight with the elbows tight. Well, you don't have to. But for those who don't or can't, they'll be seeing the ground from the bottom perspective.

As far as pummeling clips go, I'll try and find some good ones.


-John

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#344607 - 06/03/07 12:27 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:


And yes you CAN clinch fight with the elbows tight. Well, you don't have to. But for those who don't or can't, they'll be seeing the ground from the bottom perspective.





only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344608 - 06/03/07 12:52 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.




I suppose we'll have to say that the level of competence of an individual practitioner is crucial; a low competence level practitioner of, say, chi sao will allow almost anything to get through, but that by itself does not negate the usefulness of the technique.

Chi Sao is not an end in itself; it is a prelude, a set-up, to a counter-strike; if one were to keep doing it and nothing else to defend against an attack or an attempted takedown, obviously sooner or later something will get through, no matter how good you are.

Chi Sao I believe is useful as a "first-contact" technique, as opposed to a simple block or grabbing an attacking limb.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#344609 - 06/03/07 02:33 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
northstar Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 40
Sticky hands doesn't happen in a fight, but it's principles still apply; sensitivity, sticking on, keeping your self covered and exploiting your opponent's body positioning.

I can't comment too much on wing chun chi sao, as I have trained in different Chinese arts and they had a different approach.

Basically though, as crazy as it may sound (if you don't believe/understand sensitivity), as long as you have contact with your enemy you have a good chance of knowing what is coming next and controlling someone (if you're good enough).

I'm not that great but basically I can feel:

-from which direction or angle is his next move going to come
-where his balance is
-where I am open
-where is he open; where to hit him or trick him into making an opening
-the most appropriate technique to apply in the situation

A good level of Chinese martial arts is not block, strike, block, strike. I'm not saying that it doesn't work because it definately does. We just have a different approach to fighting.

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#344610 - 06/03/07 08:01 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: northstar]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ashe-higgs wrote
Quote:


only if you can't control your opponents mass properly.





Ever watch MMA? Most of those guys are decent wrestlers. They seem to get taken down in spite of the fact that they understand wrestling. Thats just the way it is because it happens in the sport of wrestling as well. One of the two wrestlers is going down at some point.

To beat wrestling, you have to KNOW wrestling. Period. If you can't control mass using wrestling, I've got news for you - you're not going to control it using chi-sao. I don't know if you were suggesting that or not.

If that were possible, weíd have seen it in MMA by now. But you donít do you? Iíve never ONCE seen chi-sao in MMA and I doubt very seriously that you ever will.

You DO see pummeling however. There are reasons why this is so. Itís not training anymore. Itís fighting. ďRealĒ functional drills comes directly out of sparring. Chi sao comes from someoneís idea of what ďshould beĒ . Not what is.



ButterflyPalm wrote

Quote:


Chi Sao I believe is useful as a "first-contact" technique, as opposed to a simple block or grabbing an attacking limb.





Elbows away from the body during fighting? Thatís going to get someone knocked out or taken down.

In boxing, that is drilled out of practitioners asap. It's called "reaching" or "pawing". That's fundamental no-no.



northstar wrote

Quote:

Sticky hands doesn't happen in a fight, but it's principles still apply; sensitivity, sticking on, keeping your self covered and exploiting your opponent's body positioning.





Youíre also making one of my own points. I never said the principles didnít apply. But the distance from which chi-sao is performed is not realistic for fighting. This is why when you see wing chun guys spar (if you ever do), you never see chi-sao and you rarely even see any trapping. You know what you DO often see? You see ďbad MMAĒ.

Here is an example of "bad mma" from some wing chun guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV7O0nJpGbQ

My point was that pummeling will accomplish the same objectives but do so more realistically, by working the actual techniques that you will use in fighting (along with the actual distance in which they are used).

What you wrote in the quote above is the exact same thing that good pummeling will accomplish. The difference is, it does it better that chi sao.

If chi sao worked, Iíd still be doing it folks.







I can't comment too much on wing chun chi sao, as I have trained in different Chinese arts and they had a different approach.





Itís all the same for the most part. None if it is what I consider to be functional.



Quote:


Basically though, as crazy as it may sound (if you don't believe/understand sensitivity), as long as you have contact with your enemy you have a good chance of knowing what is coming next and controlling someone (if you're good enough).





Not from the that distance bro. It may work if everyone you face fights just like a wing chun guy. But, fights donít happen like that.



Quote:


I'm not that great but basically I can feel:

-from which direction or angle is his next move going to come
-where his balance is
-where I am open
-where is he open; where to hit him or trick him into making an opening
-the most appropriate technique to apply in the situation





Which is all based on an unrealistic distance for what you are trying to accomplish.


Quote:


A good level of Chinese martial arts is not block, strike, block, strike. I'm not saying that it doesn't work because it definately does. We just have a different approach to fighting.





Then why is it never seen in MMA? Itís not been seen ONCE in the past 14 years. If it did what you suggest, I believe that some good kung fu guys would have made use of it. But they havenít. Again, there are reasons why thatís son (and it's not because MMA is a "sport and wing chun is for street" so lets leave that age old excuse out of the debate.)


-John

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