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#344591 - 06/01/07 02:46 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: MattJ]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikata I thought you were a student of Phil Nearings am I wrong?

IMO you will never learn wing chun unless you spend alot of time doing blindfolded chi sau. The core purpose of chi sau is to learn how to react to incoming energy without haveing to think. You want to skip the brain completely to make reactions instinctive. Blindfolded takes your eyes out of the equation you are no longer reacting to what you see but only to what you feel. You learn to feel your openings and learn to attck the opponents openings. The normal reaction sequence is see something realize what that someing is then determine how to react then react. When blindfolded you learn how to feel energy then react to that energy you greatly reduce the thought process.

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#344592 - 06/01/07 03:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


most people don't train sticky hands properly is why.





I'm 42 years old and have been training for close to 30 years. In all that time then, I have NEVER seen it "being trained properly" if that's the case.

Or perhaps, it's not capable of being trained properly, in my opinion.

Or perhaps people just do wrestling pummeling, call it chi-sao and then say, "see, this is correct chi sao".

Thus could be the argument that chi-sao equals pummeling. But most people who do pummeling understands that it does not.

Thus, chi sao and pummeling are NOT the same.


Quote:


pummeling/spinning hand/rou shou and stikcy hand are really the same thing, they just focus on different principles during the training.





They aren't the same thing though. They focus on different distances and that (I have found) is the problem with chi sao.

Perhaps you (or anyone) could provide some youtube video links to what you call correct chi-sao. Then I will try to provide some of good pummeling. You may notice a difference.


-John

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#344593 - 06/01/07 09:41 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
distance is just another factor in the same equation. you can and should train at the wrist, at the elbow and at the body, both stationary and with stepping.

spinning hand/pummeling trains the changing point of contact, sticky hand trains flowing on the point. same thing, still about the point and manifesting the right force at the point.

my Sifu will be in NC again in september. if you want to experience good spinning/sticky hand go see him.

clip 1

the ranges on this one ought to make you happy...
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#344594 - 06/01/07 09:49 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344595 - 06/01/07 09:50 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
The first one looked like a dance with no takedowns or striking.

The second one didn't show me anything. All "demos". And while demonstrations are great...

No, lets not kid ourselves. Demos suck. They always go as planned. This is what makes them different than pummeling, which always has been and always will be better than any chi-sao, any where, done by any one.

IF chi sao was so great, it would be practiced by Greco-Roman wrestlers.

Just my opinion.


-John

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#344596 - 06/01/07 10:02 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I just saw the rest of the videos including those of you and your friend flowing.

One of the glaring problems that I see with chi sao is the distance of the elbow away from the body.

When viewing most people doing chi sao, including that of you and your friend there, I see arm-drags just being asked for. None are taken however.

I also see underhooks, duck unders and just about every other attack because of the "open doors".

I'm quite sure every chi sao master from here to Kowloon will say that no such attacks are possible.

To that I say, boolsheet.



-John

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#344597 - 06/01/07 10:19 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
well, you gotta feel it.

just cuz you can see it don't mean you can capitalize on it.

i didn't have much hope for you any way.

like i said, go meet the man and i guarantee you'll sing a different tune.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344598 - 06/01/07 10:42 PM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"I see arm-drags just being asked for. None are taken however.
"

I see 'em taken. All the time.

Back to blindfolds - I still think, no matter what your opinion of overall chi sau is, that they are the stuff of demos. I think your ability to deal quickly with spontaneously created situations depends greatly on your eyes. How else could you watch their elbows/knees for movement? You can't feel what you're not sticking to.

BTW - my school spends excessive time training our distancing and timing skills. The statement that wing chun only operates in one range is a myth.

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#344599 - 06/02/07 12:38 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

You can't feel what you're not sticking to.





you don't need to feel their whole body, just the point of contact which is what you need to unify with and act on.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#344600 - 06/02/07 01:16 AM Re: Blindfolded chi sau [Re: ashe_higgs]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...like i said, go meet the man and i guarantee you'll sing a different tune.




Yeah, like everyone else, I'll love to see JKogas do arm-dregs, hooks, takedowns etc (and some Greco-Roman wrestling) when your Sifu ever so often "opens" his "doors"

Jkogas is 42 years old and has been training for 30 years; how old is your Sifu and how long has he been training?

Just saying "In My Opinion" (however humbly intoned) is just doing "Armchair Pummelling"
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I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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