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#343715 - 05/24/07 03:26 PM An odd controversey. Answers?
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#343716 - 05/24/07 04:02 PM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I see this all the time, I don't know the truth but as I understand it no one had much to day when Parker was alive.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#343717 - 05/24/07 04:31 PM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Not many answers from me. The history of kenpo in general, and especially Mitose/Chow/Parker/Tracy is obscured beyond the point of solution. Chow was known for re-writing history as his mood changed. Mitose certainly lied about elements of his training. Parker and the Tracy's had a contentious split, so it's hard to know who is telling the truth with them. Some of that stuff is undoubtedly true, but remember that is coming from a competing AKK system.

Some spin of their own, I would imagine.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#343718 - 05/24/07 07:02 PM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Thanks, seems martial arts politics are inescapable. So does this take anything from the system?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#343719 - 05/24/07 09:16 PM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Fair question, Stormy. One I have wrestled with myself. Typically I would say yes. Inconsistencies in the lineage of an art usually point to gaps in the technical repetoire, or application theory. That said, Chow in particular was noted to be a serious bad-ass. Parker as well, as far as I know. Mitose is less clear. Chow was very evasive on how much (if anything) he learned from Mitose. However, the Kosho-ryu that I have seen looks very similar to EPAK. Make of that what you will. The Tracy system I know almost nothing about, so I can't really comment. Perhaps Victor Smith or John Bishop will grace us with their knowledge.

Check these for more info:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15927588

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15927224

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15895036
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#343720 - 05/24/07 11:28 PM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Stormdragon]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

...seems martial arts politics are inescapable. So does this take anything from the system?




There are no politics in martial arts, only training. The politics are inside the organizations fighting for control of the money and power to govern the standards. Like everything else in life, there are winners and losers, liars and historians.

My first teacher taught me to "just train... the politics will take care of itself. Nobody can take your technique away from you..."

Wise words from a good teacher...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#343721 - 05/25/07 05:24 AM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Stormdragon]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Someone seems [censored] off! I think it may be Tracy, whoever she is...

Since when was "kenpo" a single, identifiable style anyway? Kenpo/quanfa just means fist art as far as I know. The first Shotokan organisation was known as the Dai Nippon Kenpo Karatekai (All Japan Fist Art Karate Association) but no one specifically calls it kenpo now. This just looks like a bunch of squabbling Westerners still poring over a dispute that is ancient history, when none of them are really originators or more authentic than the other. I am not sure Ed parker ever claimed his art was anything but a predominantly new creation. Still, to have another US karate group attacking his authenticity, notwithstanding their 700 kicks and 2000 strikes or whatever it is, seems a bit rich though...

The Tracy kata mix of Tensho, Sanchin and the Pinans (the latter mostly Shorin, the former Goju katas) plus a Tai Chi form plus a Chinese spear set plus a Japanese sword set plus some that sound recently made up, suggest to me a modern mish mash of techniques put together very recently by someone who went to a lot of different courses or clubs. This is hardly the ancient and unchanging Kenpo "style" that they pretend, so hardly different from that "American kenpo" of Ed parker that they seem to despise.

On a lighter note, I love the traditional black and white, psychedelic gi bottoms that some of the Tracy people wear.

B.

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#343722 - 05/25/07 08:42 AM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Barad]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I don't know what the issues are, but the cheguered gi pants have got to go!!!

_________________________
John L

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#343723 - 05/25/07 09:12 AM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Matt,

As an outsider to Kempo, Kenpo and all spellings, it’s difficult to say much.

Almost all of the articles, books, claims are ones made within the systems being discussed and there are not external sources to be used to verify their claims. So if you believe the person their points are well taken. If you have no basis either way they just become another tedious exercise in logic.

I would point out that Okinawan Kempo is simply a variation on Okinawn Shorin systems and appears to have no relation to the Hawaiian Kempo systems.

It’s very obvious the Tracy Brothers system keep butting heads with the other groups, notably the Parker American Kempo.

The Tracy Brothers did not just break from Ed Parker, they took a car sales training system and applied it to marketing their chain of schools. An article in Black Belt (late 60’s early 70’s) described both the way car salesmen were trained to bring along a customer and the same script modified to the Tracy system to bring along a new Kempo student. So they were the forerunners of all Martial Marketing systems to a ‘T’.

Marketing led them to team uniforms of a psychedelic nature. Then they paid superstars to join their stable, such as Shorin student Joe Lewis, to join their fighting stable, wear their distinctive uniforms and fight and pile up victories in their name. Again a marketing issue. Joe Lewis was not a Tracey student, just a paid member of their team to build their name brand.

One of my friends/instructors, began his Chinese studies under Daniel Pai (an old Hawaiian Cowboy buddy of Ed Parker), and apparently the Tracy brothers paid Pai to come in and teach his self defense techniques. At this time my friend was teaching the Pai Lum system as he had studied it (while transitioning himself and eventually his program into a more traditional Chinese system). I had shown him an Inside Karate magazine with J.T. Will (a Tracy member) demonstrating Kempo self defense techniques like I saw him teaching. He then showed me each technique in the article and explained the Pai connection to his program. This indicates they were also willing to purchase additional material from credible sources, assuming this story is true. Personally I trust my friend, but there is no reason others should do so.

We are all aware human nature is that people snipe away at each other, whether those in other systems, or in the same system or even in the same school. Old issues rarely die, they fester inside one if one lets them do so, and then such articles arise from them.

Move away from Kempo for a second. I can show you a system that was built on totally fraudulent claims that still spawned national champions in every category of training.

Regardless of any systems origins, it is people who sweat that make anything live, whether the oldest system in existence, or the newest. After all everything was new once upon a time.

Nor does old really mean much. What system today is more than linked to the training of a mere 100 years ago? Almost every older system has mutated far beyond those years in truth.

Nor to the number of techniques involved impress me. One of my instructors shared 800 ways to tear into an attack with the techniques from the 8 Isshinryu kata, and that was just a piece of the 1,500 or so he worked with his direct students. If we were counting techniques I’m probably at 2,000 or so if that mattered (which it doesn’t).

Of course if you’re interested I’d be pleased to grab my documentation and personally introduce you to those 800 ways <GRIN>, dent by dent on your body.

Or say 72 kicks. A friend training with one senior Okinawan instructor heard that in his whole life training there was only one kick.

BTW these last statements are the use of logical argument ‘Reductio Ad Absurdium’

Arts are always expressed by people. Find a way to cherish people more than arts and we’re all better off, IMVHO.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#343724 - 05/25/07 01:05 PM Re: An odd controversey. Answers? [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So basically it's just childish BS and means nothing what matters is if the system/method/style/etc. works for you. AKK and Cerio Kenpo "turn me on" so to speak, and are cherished by many respectable names so I figure I'll stick with it and just ignore the gossip and sharp shooting. All the fighting organizations have selfish motives anyway so you could discredit any of them. I like it so thats what matters.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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