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#342787 - 05/20/07 06:57 PM Kicking with front leg
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
I was watching a Karate Tournament today on tv and everyone ONLY kicked with their front leg. I kick with my front leg a lot when I spar but I also use my back leg. Do you guys use front leg or both? I was calling all their kicks because it was so obvious. You would think the defender would stop getting kicked with the front roundhouse but I guess not.

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#342788 - 05/21/07 09:44 AM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: WhiteDragon11]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
I didn't see the tournament you mention, but what is obvious to the person outside the ring / on the mat, might not be so obvious to the person inside.

Or, they could have just been telegraphing really badly.

The preference for front leg kicks could come from a few things. It's quick, and it is a short range kick for most arts.

Where the front roundhouse kicks you mention landing effectively, or where they just distractions like flies at a BBQ?
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#342789 - 05/21/07 12:33 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
I RARELY use back leg kicks when sparring, depending on who my opponent is. When going for points you can usually see a back leg kick coming from a mile away, in which case you can block it, jam your opponent, and strike to get the point.

Then again, if your opponent only strikes with the front leg it is much more predictible and you can play that to your advantage.


This is somewhat similar to my other thread about leaning on side kicks. Some say that it is good for power, however, others say that it is easier to see coming.

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#342790 - 05/21/07 01:04 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
It is a simple adaptation to the rules set at most karate competitions- semi to no contact, often point stop, and extra points given for kicks, particularly head kicks. The result is competitors throwing their leg into the air with tippy-tappy roundhouse kicks- often double or triple kicks all off the front leg. Never mind if it's got any power in it, it's touched the opponent so give me my points!

Basically, it's a bad thing.

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#342791 - 05/21/07 03:42 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Supremor]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
Yeah Supremor that is what my dad said too when we were watching it. The strikes were all double roundhouses to the stomache then to the head.There is no power in their hits it was just high and a flick to touch the person. I know it is for control but even without control it wouldnt hurt that bad.
The defender would always get hit the second time it seems and I couldnt figure out why. I would just roundhouse them to the stomache right after they are trying their next roundhouse to catch them offguard. But it could be because I wasnt under the pressure and the defender was.

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#342792 - 05/22/07 12:32 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Curly Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Whitedragon- what style of martial arts do you train in anyway?

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#342793 - 05/22/07 03:51 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Curly]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
I do Pai Lum Kungfu. And I used to do Tae Kwon Do, and another type of Kungfu.

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#342794 - 05/23/07 01:00 AM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Curly]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I RARELY use back leg kicks when sparring, depending on who my opponent is. When going for points you can usually see a back leg kick coming from a mile away, in which case you can block it, jam your opponent, and strike to get the point.




Yes, that's why its good to punch them in the face before you kick them with the back leg. Either the pain from the punch will prevent them from seeing the kick, or they will be too worried about defending the punches. If they move out of range then there is no need to kick anyway.

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#342795 - 05/23/07 06:27 AM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Supremor]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

It is a simple adaptation to the rules set at most karate competitions- semi to no contact, often point stop, and extra points given for kicks, particularly head kicks. The result is competitors throwing their leg into the air with tippy-tappy roundhouse kicks- often double or triple kicks all off the front leg. Never mind if it's got any power in it, it's touched the opponent so give me my points!

Basically, it's a bad thing.




I cannot speak for types of point competition just for WKF shobu. The point(s) should not be administered if the kick has no potential in damaging the opponent. E.g. if the opponent is moving out of the line of the attack, there is consdierably less force in the technique and the point should not be administered. Or if the attacker is leaning forward in the kick locking his hips, even when he touches he has not much power to add.

But I have seen KO's of seemingly light double kicks into the neck or temple. It's not because the kick is not swinged through completely (like in Muay Thai) that a kick has no power. Velocity in delivering the kick can play a big role.
But bad technique is bad technique and should not be rewarded even if it touches.

Control of the kick is not the only reason why the kick returns in karate. Keeping eye contact to opponent is another one. If you swing through, better follow with a backfist. But not allowed in WKF shobu.

IMO kicking from back stance can only be done in a combination. Eg sweep kick or fist combo kick.

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#342796 - 05/23/07 11:02 AM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Curly]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I RARELY use back leg kicks when sparring,




Just a point Chuck Norris made a career out of the spinning back kick, not to say his way is "the" way, just the back leg kicks can be very effective even against well trained fighters.
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#342797 - 05/24/07 12:18 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Kimo2007]
Al_Fernz Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 342
Loc: Ireland
Can I just make the point that landing a doubleroundhouse to the head is the most satisfying experiences ever!

Your never going to use your front leg on the street because there wont be enough power. But I wouldnt advise anybody to use a back kick either on the street. Its too slow and to much can go wrong. Best stick with quick hand speed.

Sport karate and semi contact fighting is great fun.

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#342798 - 05/25/07 10:11 AM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Al_Fernz]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Personally I like the front foot fake low, hit em high!
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#342799 - 08/15/07 11:00 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: schanne]
falconhunter2020 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 16
I use the front leg kick alot. It is possible to throw a front roundhouse or double roundhouse with some power, but only the first two kicks have any power for me, so if I throw a third it's usually a different type of kick.

Anyways, back on topic, the side kick can be delivered with serious power. I've seen cracked sternums in light contact tournaments.

I use the front kick with the lead leg as a defensive technique because it's a fast move that can stop a haymaker in its tracks.

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#342800 - 08/15/07 11:04 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: falconhunter2020]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
Yeah I use a front side kick a lot (tons of power). Sometimes a front front kick lol to get them if they are attacking me.

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#342801 - 08/29/07 05:37 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Al_Fernz]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I used the front leg rhk kick, sk and front kick like a jab you don't need thai rhk kicking power, if you are kicking vitals like grion and lower abdomen, I know for most of you TKDers this is not legal but it is legal in Goju or some Okinawan systems, believe that streetfighters kick at this target too, so its best to know how to defend/counter it. With footwork and movement the kick is in and out before the guys knows it and You are behind a bent over oponent, which is almost like Xmas leftovers.

Some don't believe the jab is a strong punch, but what do you think sets up the 1-2, Jab r-cross? Power can be had from these techniques but its snapping power, pentertrating stinging power enough to topple ya, in the lower abdomen. So much so that you miss the rest of combo or have adjust it for a falling body.

Theres different kind of power and purpose for certain techniques. F sk is like a power jab.


Edited by Neko456 (08/29/07 05:38 PM)
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#342802 - 08/29/07 06:27 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Neko456]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I agree with that- I myslef use the front leg side kick and front kick a lot in my sparring. You are right, they are like a jab and can set up some good power shots, and the side kick and front kick are also very good defensive kicks. My first post(all those moons ago) was referring to the original question which was about the use of only the front leg in sparring. The jab may be very useful, but if you can only jab and throw no power shots, then you are at a serious disadvantage.

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#342803 - 08/30/07 01:00 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Supremor]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Using the front leg just in sparring, is not how I think.

Heres my reasoning if it can knock over or hurt a finely tuned guy with rippling stomach muscle and lighting fast reflexes, I personally think that it will clobber a beer belly beer drinking crap talking wanta be tough guy.

When I'm sparring I try to use techniques that would apply in a real situation, even my above the waist kicks pending who the oponent is, simple stuff may not work, you have to do what they don't expect.

I use the front leg kicks like I do the jab, on the mat or on the street, I set things up. You catch a guy really committed under his striking arm and sidestep while throwing the front leg rhk (which is almost a rear leg rhk kick now), it will double him up possiblly break his ribs.
The over the shoulder punch almost needs to be aimed at the behind the ear of this now falling fellow.

So what works sparring if its practical works when you're fighting, been my experience. You gonna do it instinctly anyway. We fight the way we train.
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#342804 - 08/30/07 04:31 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Kimo2007]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Front leg = quicker (good for fast points) but less power
Back leg = more power but slower (harder to score points with)

So it depends on what your trying to accomplish. In a point tournament the front leg is going to be your better "weapon".

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#342805 - 08/30/07 07:20 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: JAMJTX]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
Yeah I agree JAMJTX,
but thats the thing.

I think point sparring is becoming to "point" oreinted that the fighting isnt effective. If a martial artists, who throws only those flick front leg kicks without bringing his foot down, goes against a martial artists who trains in contact sparring I believe he will get owned. I know this depends on how skilled the guys are but if they are close in skill or even a little better than the other.
They throw those flick kicks I would jam up into that leg and come in with punches. These guys rely too much on their one foot for kicking and just flicking the guy for a point.

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#342806 - 09/04/07 04:53 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: WhiteDragon11]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I've always considered the front Mae-geri (front-kick) the equivalent of the jab & the front Mawashi-geri (round-kick) the equivalent of a Uraken (back-fist) or Haito (ridge-hand).

Most people never learn to harness the power built on the speed of these kicks. Problem is that they deliver these kicks from an upright position. They do this by shifting their balance from both legs to the back leg (backing-up) & flicking the kick. If they actually made contact, they'd push themselves backward.

The key here is to bring the front knee up very fast, kick & retract while going forward. In other words, don't balance on your back leg. If you don't complete the kick & get your foot down fast enough, you should fall forward.

The advanced version of these kicks require you to push-off forward the instant your front foot leaves the floor - very difficult because most people end up hopping.

Another point...I like to use the front Mae-geri (front kick) as a stop-kick aimed @ the hip or belly-button. Your opponent will essentially impale himself. A kick doesn't need to be high to be effective. But the rule still goes...feel your balance & momentum going forward, always.

BTW...I love to rush-in against those who shift their balance backward in order to get their f-leg round-kick to head-level. They fall over like a drunk.

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#342807 - 09/04/07 05:11 PM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: Kimo2007]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

I RARELY use back leg kicks when sparring,




Not intended as a put down in the slightest, but I do believe that using the back leg in Tournaments can be extremly effective. It all depends on how fast you can initiate the kick and how little you telegraph its inception.

I often start off with a kick which is somewhere in between an Axe kick and a Crescent kick from the rear leg as this allows me to project forwards, jamming any counter and sets up nicely for the following kicks.
e.g.
Left Stance, Right leg Crescent/Axe with projection.
1. Without placing the foot on the floor, hop in with:
.....A Side Kick.
.....A High Turning Kick (Keeping the circular energy of the crescent kick going).
....Middle section Side Kick, project and high section turning kick.

2. Gently placing the Crescent on the floor and instantly pivoting and deliver:
......A Back Kick.
......A Spinning Back Kick.
......Spinning high Hook Kick Turning Kick Combination.
etc.

I beleive in training many further combinations for the same type of entry technique. That way it is harder for your opponent to read you.

I also posted a technique yonks ago, expecting to start a mutual exchange of tecniques, but to no avail.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15923285
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#342808 - 09/07/07 11:18 AM Re: Kicking with front leg [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think you make a good point. People are so use to training in gloves or pads they forget or don't practice bare fist/empty hand sparring enough. At a certain level I believe we need to practice bare fisted training. In this method the fast snap techniques can take effect, you don't always want to knock or push the opponent away, sometimes you want to drop them where they stand.

Kicking leaning back on the leg as you mentioned can put u off balance trying combos, as you mentioned. But if done evading a blow with a good snap method it is effective but the lean is defensive and only use to evade the incoming, then you have to get off line. This evade can be done side stepping and snap kick with your body angled away but just for a moment.

I believe that basic back erect or slight lean kicking is for optimum power or call your pocket situations. But when the furs flying we all know we must make adjustment within that fury.

Going back to bare fisted sparring I've notice you don't want long exchanges, because if you do both people end up briused. A front rhk kick bare or in shoes can crack a rib or fold you done correctly, the same move in pad may just bounce off. You can perform some snap movement in pads but we seem prone to thrusting or clubbing moves once padded up. Is what I see.

Kicking with the front leg is effective bc its using the closest weapon to the incoming. One of your purpose should be to break down, setup or counter under or over incoming or a person falling away.


Kimo I agree with Griffy

Rarely using either back or front leg limits your possibilites what if he is open for a rear leg technique? You may not even see it bc you have limited yourself. U got to get out of your comfort zone, expand and don't be so worried about lossing or being scored on while sparring test your techniques.

As U know rear leg stuff are your power shots, punching or kicking most times!


Edited by Neko456 (09/07/07 11:30 AM)

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