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#342460 - 05/17/07 10:55 PM A little style-history problem
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
The way I heard the story, Muso Jikiden Ryu was split, at some point, into Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu, the latter being now extinct. That was what I thought until I actually started learning Iaido, not quite two years ago, when I found that my dojo was claiming to teach Muso Shinden Ryu. My instructor, to whom I asked about that, wasn’t too aware of the school's lineage but was nonetheless positive that it was indeed Muso Shinden Ryu, for the European Iai Federation officially bases all their gradings and seminars on the Muso Shinden Ryu. Where’s the trick? Was my source about Muso Shinden Ryu being discontinued misinformed, or is it that another branch or school took the name later?
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#342461 - 05/18/07 01:08 PM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: Tashigae]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Not sure where you arrived at your information, but it's very wrong. I am neither an MJER nor an MSR guy, but here's the deal as I understand it. I'm sure Charles can elaborate quite a bit more when he gets the chance ... Muso Shinden Ryu was split off from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu by Nakayama Hakudo in the 1930's. It is far from extinct, being second only to MJER in it's membership and current world popularity.

If you Google Muso Shinden Ryu, I'm sure that you will be able to come up with a lot of information, probably more than you wanted to know.
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#342462 - 05/18/07 01:37 PM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: pgsmith]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Once upon a time there was just Tosa Iai, which came in a couple of different flavors, Tanimura-ha and Shimomura-ha. Oe Masamichi inheritted both lines and synthesized the two back together. He gave the newly reformulated curriculum Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Nakayama Hakudo-sensei, a prominent exponent of Gekken(the predecessor to modern kendo) wanted to study Tosa Iai, but was refused by Oe-sensei. At the time, outsiders were not really welcomed into the style. Nakayama-sensei was connected with an instructor who was still teaching Shimomura-ha. He trained in Shimomura-ha, not sure how long. He then left Tosa to teach what he had learned. I understand that he synthesized what he learned of Shimomura-ha with his knowledge of Gekken and named this style Muso Shinden Ryu.

Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu has fractured into several different lines since Oe-soke's time. The most prominent lines are the Seitokai line led by Ikeda Takashi-soke, the Jikishinkai line led by Miura-sensei, and the Komei Jyuku line led by Sekiguchi Komei-sensei. There are a number of other lines with substantial followings.

Muso Shinden Ryu seems to be considerably more fractured than MJER. The majority of MSR dojos seem to be tied to the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei in some fashion or other.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#342463 - 05/19/07 04:52 AM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: Charles Mahan]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Thank you both for the clarification. My source was a French ‘Encyclopedia of Martial Arts’, and that’s not the first time I find errors in it, which annoys me since it’s the source of almost any knowledge I have regarding styles’ history. Looks like I’ll have to cross check every info I got from it – which is an awful lot.

Thanks again for the help.
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#342464 - 05/19/07 11:52 PM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: Tashigae]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
so Ikeda Takashi-soke is the recognized head of MJER? I feel ive read somewhere that the only proclaimed soke of MJER was by miura-sensei and the other two did not claim themselves to be? or is it the other way around?
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#342465 - 05/20/07 12:36 PM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: fatguy]
ErikTracy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 17
My instructor, Shimabukuro Sensei, is a direct student of Miura Sensei, and we all belong to Miura Sensei's organization, the Nippon Kobudo Jikishin-Kai.

I have never heard from anyone within the Jikishin-Kai refer to Miura Sensei as Soke.

Even in Shimabukuro Sensei's book, "Flashing Steel", it is acknowledged that the "official credentials" of the Jinsuke-Eishin-ryu tradition (later recodified/renamed as Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu by Oe Masamichi S.) came into the possession of Hokiyama Namio S. from Oe Masamichi S. who died of cancer. The densho were passed on thru that lineage to Ikeda Takeshi S., the current Soke of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu.

However, having said that, there are different 'ryu-ha'(branches) of MJER as authorized by Oe Masamichi S. by his awarding of Kongen no Maki (the equivalent of Menkyo Kaiden - or authorizing licenses) that recognized full knowledge/transmission of Eishin-ryu.

So from Oe Masamichi there are 4 recognized lines of MJER, but only one "Soke".

If you do a search over at e-budo.com there is a WEALTH of information which discusses this very topic.

Regards,
Erik Tracy
Jikishin-Kai Intl

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#342466 - 05/20/07 11:54 PM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: ErikTracy]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
What Erik said. It's all kinda messy. No clean and easy answers. What is "recognized" depends a lot on who is doing the recognizing.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#342467 - 05/21/07 01:06 AM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: Charles Mahan]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Its great to learn!

(Cause Knowledge is Power!!)
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Saya no uchi de katsu

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#342468 - 05/22/07 09:16 AM Re: A little style-history problem [Re: Charles Mahan]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

What Erik said. It's all kinda messy. No clean and easy answers. What is "recognized" depends a lot on who is doing the recognizing.



Couldn't agree more. ;-)

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