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#341051 - 05/12/07 06:45 PM Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu?
diseredato Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 30
Hello everyone,

After seeing some Royce Gracie videos of BJJ, I thought it would be a good art to learn. The groundwork looks very useful and could come in handy in a SD situations.

However, my problem is that there are no BJJ classes in my area, but they're are Jujutsu classes.

So my quesion is, how much do Jujutsu and BJJ have in common? I know BJJ is derived from Jujutsu, but how much do they have in common?

Thanks for any replies.

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#341052 - 05/12/07 11:35 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
How much do BJJ and Jujitsu have in common?

An armlock is an armlock isn't it? A choke is a choke? Right? Maybe..........

But the training methods often tend to be completely different. Brazilian jiu-jitsu emphasizes alive training and sparring using resistance. This doesn't occur at every jujutsu school.

If every school trained the same way, you would have virtually NO stylistic differences. Japanese jujutsu and Brazilian jiu-jitsu would look exactly alike. The same would be true of practically any other style as well.

Why? Because styles are bull$hit honestly. "Styles" truly only exist in the minds of the practitioners. Sure, there are different training methods, but they aren't all that different from each other really. You basically have two schools of thought:

1. Schools that do little sparring, spend a lot of time on forms, line drills, board breaking, etc. Training may or may not be all that athletic. Sweating may occur, though it isn't guaranteed.

2. Schools that spar and drill alive, have partners providing real resistance every step of the way (progressively of course and with variable intensity). They spend NO time doing forms or any sort of drill that doesn't involve a partner. Sweat happens. Training is ALWAYS athletic. These people live on advil.

Again, IMO, if everyone trained the same way (alive), this notion of martial arts styles would be an non-factor. It wouldn't even be a discussion. But people don't. They typically take one of the two mentioned approaches above.

If they take the first route, the training can be remarkably the same when looked at from a more distant perspective. Like I said, forms are common. Unalive (dead) training is common. Two-man drills with little in the way of motion, timing and resistance is common. Thus all the "styles" that fit into first category are practically the same with only a few details being the difference.

Likewise, schools which take the second route practically end up looking the same as well. Aliveness being what it is, makes this so. You'll find that many techniques you thought you could make work, don't work now when your partners resist your efforts and attempt to do the same things back to you.

People taking the second route use all ranges. They will kick, punch, clinch and grapple on the ground. Regardless of "style". And ultimately it all looks the same.

Someone once posted a clip of Hapkido guys rolling. It "looked" just like BJJ. Thus is there really any difference in the two? Not when trained alive there isn't. But the minute that the aliveness goes away, people tend to get pretty "creative".......

And that isn't always a good thing.

Now many folks in the first category will often say they teach kicking, punching, clinching and ground grappling like the folks in category two. And in fact they MIGHT.

But you'll see a TREMENDOUS difference in the way it looks between the schools of the different approaches. And THAT is the problem.

I've been in traditional Japanese jujutsu and aikijujutsu schools. What I've seen has left me speechless, and not in a GOOD way. Dead training methods were the norm.

I live on the East coast of the USA. But I have heard the same things from people across this country and from guys around the world; that many of those classes they have observed are exactly the same as what I have discovered. So it isn't just something unique to MY experience or, "neck of the woods". Dead training happens, just the same way $hit does.

So again, the differences in technique are often slight but the methods of training are like night and day. And it's the METHOD that matters more than anything.

Hope this makes some sense. I spent four hours training in the gym today and I'm tired. Maybe tomorrow I'll look at this and think, wtf did I just say?


Cheers

-John

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#341053 - 05/13/07 12:10 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: JKogas]
diseredato Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 30
Ya thanks, that really helped me. But just to be sure I understood, Jujutsu uses forms and no sparring, and BJJ you spar and have active resisting partners to practice the techniques on. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that is what I understood from your post.

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#341054 - 05/13/07 12:19 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
This sort of thing completely depends on any specific school. You'll have to check them out yourself individually to judge them.



-John

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#341055 - 05/13/07 08:07 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Depends entirely on school.

I know a BJJ school who's crappy sparring wouldn't make you sweat, and I know jujutsu schools that will have you begging for a break.

Depends entirely on the school. And it's upto you if you want to join an 'alive' school or a 'dead' school.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341056 - 05/13/07 09:14 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Depends entirely on the school. And it's upto you if you want to join an 'alive' school or a 'dead' school.






Certainly! I suppose it is. Its true that some folks don't like to work. Some are lazy and enjoy being spoon-fed. Others have fragile egos which would prevent them from sparring and thus discovering truly what it is that they can and cannot "do" against a resisting opponent. Some folks want to believe they are "dangerous" mofos without actually having to do the work to become so. Some folks simply care about the "art" and don't have a problem being unable to apply anything that they've spent time learning.

So yes, dead or alive is all good and completely up to the individual.


-John

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#341057 - 05/13/07 09:28 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Do you have a link for the school in question? That might help us help you a bit more!

Some Ju Jitsu schools also do weapons work too. But as Taison and John have already said, it really depends on the school.

As I said, if you have a link to the school, or even the orginization, that would be helpful.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#341058 - 05/13/07 01:21 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I have to be honest, I don't really see the point in doing 'dead' training. If it doesn't work against a guy in the dojo, what's the reason it would in the streets?

Just my complete, utter, unadultered opinion.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341059 - 05/13/07 04:23 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Two different animals. If you are "looking for" BJJ, you may very well find Traditional JJ not to your liking. Vice versa as well of course.

Neither is for everyone. The focuses are different and as a predictable result, the results are as well.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#341060 - 05/14/07 12:03 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Jkogas- Judo and BJJ are both trained alive, yet they look pretty different. (Good post tho but just trying to make a point)

diseredato imo you have to look at the context the 'aliveness' is trained in, the rules. For example because of Judo's rules people tend to fight differently on the ground than BJJ folk.

But I do think they share one thing in common, they have real attributes. whether that be a good guard game or a good foot sweep, but then again they are good at using w/e it is in a particular context, but I suppose the context of whether your oppo is resisting or not is the biggest one of all :-)
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#341061 - 05/14/07 12:13 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: MiSt]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Mist, he was comparing JUJUTSU and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, not Judo and BJJ.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341062 - 05/14/07 12:27 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'd say having a foundation in one is better then not studying any thing.

Traditional Jujitsu can be a little like hard Aikido but they openly admit to striking. In that once the technique is applied U tap early or flow with it. TJJ does have ground and choking techniques but they don't stress them as much as BJJ. TJJ also have higher variety of locks, throws and principle of throwing. Like throwing a opponent and control him so he lands on the corner of of his body to break him.

BJJ is full resisitance and competitive base, it has a self defense base but its not as detailed as TJJ. BJJ does strike but thats 2nd to grappling. BJJ does practice throws but stress take downs. BJJ has intense groundwork (that requires building stamina) and goes into to details of groundwork at lower level of trainer then does the TJJ dojos. BJJ practice what works and what can be appiled in practice/dojo daily.

TJJ practice deadlier or effective street techniques and principles but these techniques can't be practice fully in the dojo.

If it was possible to study both at different times so that you had the practicality and endurnous of BJJ and deadly principle and application of TJJ you would have an awesome combination in my opinion.

I admit BJJ practice strikes to vitals but its 2nd to grappling and takedowns.

My 2 cent, if theres no BJJ school close practice TJJ until you can find one or move closer to a BJJ school. It would open your eyes to alot of possibilities.


Edited by Neko456 (05/14/07 12:31 PM)
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DBAckerson

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#341063 - 05/14/07 02:00 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Neko456]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Tasion I know. But he seemed to say that anything that trains alive is the same.
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#341064 - 05/14/07 06:02 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Jkogas- Judo and BJJ are both trained alive, yet they look pretty different.




Not really when you think about it the way I am.

However I don't think thats really a valid point. The RULES structures are the only thing that makes a difference. Thus in my opinion, that difference is an artificial one. I have seen judo played EXACTLY like BJJ.

When I mention arts appearing the same, I'm NOT talking about rules limitations. I've talking about MOVEMENTS, literal, human physical motion. Not that this technique or that technique is or isn't allowed.

Just to clarify. Sure there can be some very minor differences. However again, if you allowed everything in judo that you didn't in BJJ, they would indeed appear exactly the same. Would it not?



-John

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#341065 - 05/14/07 11:41 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: MiSt]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
FYI, Judo and BJJ are practically twins. Both have the same throws and same grappling techniques. The difference? Different emphasis.

Judo wants to master 'throwing', while BJJ wants to master 'ground-work'.

The rules in Judo actually penalizes you if you try to play like a BJJ practitioner, and if you try to do Judo in BJJ competition, it'll mostly be futile since their mats are SOMETIMES, not always, so soft, throws wouldn't help much, hence the reason for quick takedowns instead of throws in BJJ.

It's the rules and emphasis. Same animal different usage.

If you want to be menacing, doing both judo and bjj would supplement beyond imagination. And you wouldn't feel lost when you are indeed cross-training in the two.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341066 - 05/15/07 02:05 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Taison]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Sure Jkogas they CAN look the same, a foot sweep is a foot sweep. However don't tell me when you enter a Judo school during randori it looks the same as a BJJ one EVEN when they are both doing standup. For example a lot of the [censored] you do in BBJ is frowned upon (or at least not the norm) IE the closed guard (serious) double leg takdowns, some grips etc etc

Tyson, I remember their was a thread on the 'Judo guard' and to me this touched upon the REAL difference. How can you say they are the same animals when your average Judo guy doesnt know what a closed guard is (slight exageration at most).
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#341067 - 05/15/07 02:14 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: MiSt]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

How can you say they are the same animals when your average Judo guy doesnt know what a closed guard is (slight exageration at most).




I think it's more than an exageration, it's not true. At my judo club, everybody uses a closed guard when they need to. Indeed, last night we were drilling passes for the closed guard.


Edited by Supremor (05/15/07 02:15 PM)

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#341068 - 05/15/07 03:25 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Supremor]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Ok, your actually right. But my point still remains, the guard emphasis is HUGELY different.
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#341069 - 05/15/07 11:27 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: MiSt]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Mist, you are just trying to compare Judo and BJJ in ground-work, which is a big big fallacy in your argument.

It's this simple, Judo-ka spend 70% of their time STANDING. BJJ practitioners spend the same amount of time ON THE GROUND.

The rules in Judo doesn't benefit, alas it penalizes you for going for too long on the ground, so judo-ka EMPHASIZES standing.

Closed guard? Well, ask a BJJ practitioner what a pistol grip is. Or any of the post WWII throws such as morote seoi-nage, the Makikomi family and the more recent throws. You'll see one stupified BJJ practitioner.

Vis a vis, BJJ practioners don't really need to know all the throws because they are comfortable ON THE GROUND, while Judo-ka don't really need to know all the ground-work because they are comfortable STANDING.

Ok, for example a BJJ practitioner is more prone to pull the guard, but a judo-ka is more prone to scramble himself up from the ground because it really isn't his comfort zone.

We're talking about the same art with different emphasis, it's like comparing 100 meter sprint with marathon. One you have to be fast, the other one you have to endure.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341070 - 05/16/07 05:40 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Taison]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
And as always, it depends largely on where you train. I am sure that some judo schools do almost no newaza, mine happens to do about 40-50%. I'm sure there are BJJ schools that do hardly any standing work, whereas others will put 40% of their time into drilling stand-up. You just can't generalise.

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#341071 - 05/16/07 06:01 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Exactly! I've seen judo guys work quite a bit from the ground and I've seen BJJ guys with excellent throws from their feet.

In other words, in many cases, they often end up looking pretty much the same! Which was my whole point to BEGIN WITH.

-John

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#341072 - 05/16/07 10:45 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Supremor]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I was basing my statement on curriculum as set by the Kodokan and my understanding of Gracie's curriculum as I saw it in Bangkok.

If you're going to go into micro-scopic level of details, then heck you got so many schools that teach differently, it's just more or less impossible to say "This school does this, that school does that". That would be a fallacy in itself.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341073 - 05/16/07 10:47 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

In other words, in many cases, they often end up looking pretty much the same! Which was my whole point to BEGIN WITH.


Exactly, it's the situation that says what looks like what, not the practitioner.

-Taison out yet again
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#341074 - 05/22/07 09:44 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Taison]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

FYI, Judo and BJJ are practically twins. Both have the same throws and same grappling techniques. The difference? Different emphasis.

Judo wants to master 'throwing', while BJJ wants to master 'ground-work'.

The rules in Judo actually penalizes you if you try to play like a BJJ practitioner, and if you try to do Judo in BJJ competition, it'll mostly be futile since their mats are SOMETIMES, not always, so soft, throws wouldn't help much, hence the reason for quick takedowns instead of throws in BJJ.

It's the rules and emphasis. Same animal different usage.

If you want to be menacing, doing both judo and bjj would supplement beyond imagination. And you wouldn't feel lost when you are indeed cross-training in the two.

-Taison out





Put even more bluntly, BJJ is directly derived from pre-1925 Kodokan judo, with a little Western CACC wrestling thrown in (Mitsuyo Maeda was actually a CACC champ who competed regularly in London, and he incorporated some CACC material into his own personal method). Early judo had much more emphasis on groundwork, which can still be seen today in Kosen judo schools.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#341075 - 05/23/07 09:54 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
AMP,
Long time no see. Welcome back.
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www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#341076 - 05/23/07 10:17 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: oldman]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

AMP,
Long time no see. Welcome back.





Thansk, bro. It's admittedly been a while!
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#341077 - 05/25/07 12:33 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
ExcessForce Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Pa
yes you hit it on the head, judo and bjj are almost the same...the history of bjj and gjj are very heavily influenced by judo... but like one guy said,some schools dont teach ground game,some dont teach striking ...some just are sports orinated...mine that i teach is combat orinated,i teach striking and ground work and kicking...

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#341078 - 06/14/07 09:59 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: ExcessForce]
groundfighter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
As I understand it from the sensei at a Gracie school, there is VERY little (if any) emphasis on stand up fighting in BJJ, whereas in JJ there is a signifigant sylabus of stand up fighting (still certainly not emphasized)
It has also been my experience that there are a lot more transition positions in BJJ and that they train with a focus on the worst case (being on bottom) as opposed to the assumption that we can achieve mount.
That is merely my observation and NOT the voice of expertise.
J
_________________________
train how you fight, fight to live.

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#341079 - 06/15/07 08:16 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: groundfighter]
groundfighter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
Would you agree with that last statement?
_________________________
train how you fight, fight to live.

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#341080 - 06/15/07 11:05 AM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: groundfighter]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
More or less right, IME. About equal emphasis on guard work, compared to top position.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#341081 - 07/19/07 07:28 PM Re: Differences between BJJ and Jujutsu? [Re: diseredato]
Knobblykneez Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 5
Blimey - our school doesn't stop! Spar, spar, round robin, multiple attackers and so on. I feel a training session for a good while after we finish!

Yup, would agree that it totally depends on the school.

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