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#340718 - 05/16/07 09:39 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
So, if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that while kicks may work for professional sportsmen in the cage, the time that an average joe has to spend on learning martial arts makes learning kicking a waste of time?

That makes sense to me. It doesn't stop me from liking to kick and thinking I can continue to kick, because I devote a lot more time to martial arts than an average joe. But I can see that if someone has just 3-4 hours a week to learn techinuqes and practice, then those hourse would best be served by some wrestling mixed with a bit of boxing.

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#340719 - 05/16/07 01:53 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
In regards to GSP, he was in TMA for many years before venturing into MMA and why his kicking is done so well. Later grappling, wrestling, boxing and Muay Thai all became a part of his training. With his abilities he certainly has become a world class athlete.

John, if and fact your are in agreement with Supremor's last post, then I would have to also agree. GSP's earlier training is the reason he is proficient at it but the average joe most certainly would not receive as good of benefit for training it part time and hope to have the same results and probably would end with the opposite effect they wanted.

Even being TKD kicker for almost 5 years I would sooner throw hands, clinch and grapple as that is what my strengths are however I would not discount leg kicks but you have to be quick and retract that leg and most certainly I would never throw a leg kick if my opponent is fresher then myself and I'm tired as then my kicks would be easier caught. There is a time and place for kicks for sure.

However while typing this I speculate that a good fighter could make it by on hand skills, clinch, knees, elbow, takedowns and grappling/wrestling skills without ever needing to learn leg kicks. They are not necessarily needed to be a good fighter but they are another element for sure that can be useful. Perhaps leg kicks are much like all of the different chokes/arm bars in grappling. You only need to know the basics but it never hurts to know a few more things. And as you pointed out with grappling vs. a stand up fighter, you might as well be versed in kicking so as to know how to defend from them even if you are not a kicker. Understanding the dynamics of kicking can most certainly improve your ability to nullify them.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#340720 - 05/16/07 07:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Here is something I am noticing and want to point it out. I began this thread in order to discuss kicks, I chose this forum because TKD/korean arts are known for having an abundance of kicks compared to most martial arts.

While many of you agree that certain kicks such as leg kicks have their place in MMA, many of you disagreed that TKD kicks or the 2 basic ones I brought up would be useless. And so many agreed with John that a good fighter would not need kicks in a NHB fight. Then it seems that kicks themselves were in jeopardy of being discarded altogether. At this point it seems many of you decided not to disagree with john, but to some how try and squeeze in the usefulness of kicks. As I see it, this happend because john was making so good an argument, that he indirectly had you questioning your and it's usefulness. I mean the reason why I brought up NHB was because it is the closest kind of sparring to actual real combat. And if maneuvers like kicks can be executed there than it is likely they can be used in street fighting as well.

It is unfortunate; I'd had hope to get more responses from the members of this forum regarding kicks. I myself feel that many of the kicks used in any style of TKD can be useful in an NHB, because although it is a close simulation to one on one street fighting, it is still after all a competition with many rules. I also feel that a good kicker can be trained in 2 years.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
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#340721 - 05/16/07 08:32 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Merely providing opinions Tek. You're welcome to your own. Some folks will simply differ. I don't like kicks. Takes me away from my general strategy which is PRESSURE! In my opinion, THAT is the single biggest factor in winning fights, sport or otherwise.



-John

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#340722 - 05/16/07 11:00 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
TeK, I agree that many kicks would be usefully in a NHB fight and can be useful on the street; there is no question. However the two kicks you presented I believe would put a person in a bad predicament against a good ground fighter, or even a good fighter with excellent foot work for avoiding.

Our school does TKD and BJJ and we mix it all together at times. I've tried my hand at keeping the stand-up but I'm more a ground guy. Being that, all good kickers I've found can be taken down though at times I've had to eat a few kicks but sometimes the sacrifice is worth it. I put much faith in kicks as I've seen some great kickers with one being my Instructor but I think even after doing TKD for over 20 years I think he would agree that only so many kicks can be used especially if your opponent is skilled and in the environment you are in.

What I was trying to elude earlier is that though kicking is a great tool, you can still get by without using them however you could not get by without striking ability, clinching ability or grappling ability. As you've noticed in MMA, kicks are not used by many which because you are a kicker it eludes you as you can see many instances where they could have; and so have I for that matter. However guys are getting by without them and doing well even against kickers. They are finding timing and distance and are jamming kicks so they are less powerful and taking advantage of the extended appendage and going for takedowns.

I believe every fighter should be versed in kicking, heck anybody doing martial arts should know the basics. But like myself, I probably will only have the basics and never aspire to any greatness in this area whereas with my passion for grappling I stand a better chance of improving in this area. You have to remember, punching comes so much more naturally and everybody can do it however kicking is hard for many, let alone understanding the proper dynamics of a proper kick without hurting themselves in the process or getting actual power on the end of their kicks from turning their hips. And many do not have the flexibility or the time to put into many of the TKD style kicks especially when they know they must improve in so many other areas that they will need such as the grappling and punching.

I think this is a great thread and am thoroughly enjoying it and hope we have many others.
_________________________
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#340723 - 05/16/07 11:04 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
John as I stated in a previous post your opinions are most welcome. I appreciate you sharing your vast experience with us, I myself am just starting to venture into a world that you yourself have already accumulated a vast amount of knowledge. However, having spent a decade of my life honing my kicking skills, I just can't abandon them after having seen just how useful they can be. For me my kicks are are useful to me as my punches, I throw them with confidence and with ease. I take the risk of landing with an tool that is twice as long and nearly three or four times as powerful. And being only 5'7 I have especially focused on direct linear kicks such as the side kick, and back kick. Coming from a TKD background which is very sports orientated I've learned how to use incorporate footwork to enhance the versatility of my kicks. Now I must admit that while most of my self defense skills have been practice to face an untrained assailant, much of my sparring have been against trained opponents.

As far as wrestling having the ability to take my down, that depends on much of what they know correct? I have sparred with high school wrestlers before and they do not know how to spar versus a TMA, they only know high school wrestling which does not involve punches and kicks.

As far as someone taking me down in a street fight, well I am sure there are other ways to prevent a take down that are not legal in NHB matches that are much more effective than just sprawling?

As for the hop side kick, I find it useful because it is a direct kick, I use it to attack my opponents ribs and stomach, I put a very good snap so that it is quick and I re-chamber all my kicks so as to not get them caught. I use the heel of my foot to hit my targets, just as I do with back kicks.

Someone mentioned earlier that the hop side kick would not be useful because of the stance or position it leaves you in. I trained so that I always maintain a proper fighting or boxers stance. My hands are always up. My knees are bent, my rear heel is off of the ground and I am in a forward position capable of immediately attacking and countering. So the hop kick does not leave me vulnerable. The back kick however, does leave me vulnerable but only for a moment, I only execute it when I know it will land. Both the hop side kick and back kick are linear kicks, and a fighter rarely has the ability to evade them moving backwards, these kicks require the opponent to side step out of the way other wise they will get hit. This gives me an advantage, as I already know that if I do not land my kick, I know in which direction my opponent is going to respond from.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340724 - 05/17/07 04:15 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I think part of the equation is that in MMA we are already aware that the opponent is probably skilled in wrestling and take-downs therefore we are less likely to commit to the kind of kick which might endanger us.

If we look at TKD competition and count how many times kicks just don't connect the way we'd like (or at all) then we should consider how much more vulnerable we are when the opponent can rush us or grab etc.

An earlier post pointed out how effective kicks were against tired fighters. There's also the surprise element of a good kick. Mark Weir, as a TKD champion was expected to throw kicks when he first entered UFC. he didn't and what a surprise his opponent got (in 11 seconds, I believe).
However, Weir has used kicks very successfully in other fights.

I'm not so sure MMA lacks TKD rather than lacks people who know how best to utilise their kicks, or have the confidence to use them in MMA situation.
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#340725 - 05/17/07 06:22 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


While many of you agree that certain kicks such as leg kicks have their place in MMA, many of you disagreed that TKD kicks or the 2 basic ones I brought up would be useless. And so many agreed with John that a good fighter would not need kicks in a NHB fight. Then it seems that kicks themselves were in jeopardy of being discarded altogether. At this point it seems many of you decided not to disagree with john, but to some how try and squeeze in the usefulness of kicks.




I think you are missing a very important distinction that has arisen in the argument so far: that most martial artists are not professionals.

I have argued that kicking can be very effecting in MMA, because if a professional athlete is able to develop great kicking skills on top of his wrestling and boxing skills, then he will have an edge. However, 90% of martial artists are people who spend perhaps 2-4 hours a week going to classes. They don't lift weights and could not be considered athletes in terms of their fitness levels, or their skill levels.

Because of this, teaching self defense to such people will need to revolve around simple stuff that can be maintained and learned with just a few hours of teaching a week, and can be performed with less than brilliant fitness levels. Wrestling and boxing are two disciplines that can be performed with reasonable efficacy without being all that fit, although being fit/strong etc will always be improve them. TKD on the other hand, being a discipline that requires a great deal of athleticism to perform even the more simpler side-kicks or roundhouse kicks well. The time taken to improve and hone the discipline of kicking is just too great for it to be valid for most MA hoobyists.

On the other hand, people like myself, who does 6-8 hours of TKD, 3 weight training sessions, and a couple of judo classes, every week, obviously have a far higher athletic ability, making kicks more achievable and more worthwhile to train. Professional MMAists, who have even more time to train, will find even more value in training some more unusual areas of martial arts, e.g. GSP's kicking ability.

That's my take on it anyway.

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#340726 - 05/17/07 06:58 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


As far as wrestling having the ability to take me down, that depends on much of what they know correct?





True. Everything is relative. However there is no denying the fact that a wrestlers job is made IMMEDIATELY 50% easier when a person has one of their legs off the ground. That's a fact. And that's all I'm saying.


Quote:


I have sparred with high school wrestlers before and they do not know how to spar versus a TMA, they only know high school wrestling which does not involve punches and kicks.





Sparring is one thing, fighting is another. I think we all know that. And I can't speak for the wrestlers you sparred with. However I know some wrestlers that are STUPID tough (yes that's a different category folks) and just crazy. Again it comes down to PRESSURE and that is perhaps the one thing that wrestlers are better at than anyone. I think that deserves consideration.


Quote:


As far as someone taking me down in a street fight, well I am sure there are other ways to prevent a take down that are not legal in NHB matches that are much more effective than just sprawling?





This is always a slippery slope and I naturally disagree because I think it's a faulty premise. The idea is that because wrestlers are "sport guys" that once the rules are broken, they will be completely ineffective. Thats a tremendous assumption.

The best wrestlers live on the very edge of the rules as it is.

Yes there are ways of avoiding a takedown other than by using a full sprawl but "rules" will have little to do with it. It's time we got ourselves off of this "sport is no good because it has rules, BS". When there are no rules, the only difference is getting beaten bad enough for a hospital stay, AFTER he performs a takedown.

I don't want folks making the assumption that I think all kicks are bad and don't have a place. That's not true. I am just presenting another point of view that is often (clearly) at odds with most traditional martial artists. I personally do not like kicking and wouldn't kick because I see fighting differently than many people do.

Kicking is (basically) a long range tool, and I've RARELY seen fights where guys have maintained that distance needed to use kicking effectively. Usually the distanced is closed VERY rapidly in real fights and assaults. That is unless they were doing it for fun or money and I'm talking about self-defense here.

The fights I've seen in bars and pool halls were never like that as were those outside in the parking lots. Inside, there was rarely any ROOM for kicking. But I DID see guys getting tackled, slammed and clinched MANY times.

When I did see an attempted kick, it usually identified the person that was about to meet ass to asphalt. No lie.

These folks of course, were not always the best athletes in the world. But that isn’t to say that they were all slobs either. But the realties are what they are. I rarely saw “martial arts” techniques (which is often going to be kicking) involved. Although once (and I swear this is true) a guy starting $hit with some other guys. This guy left the scene and came back later wearing his gi. I think we laughed ourselves to the point of pissing our pants. But that’s another story (nothing happened that time)

To sum up why I don’t like kicking as a strategy, would be the sheer speed of real fights and the fact that the distance in them is closed very quickly. If you’re halfway up with a kick when the distance is being closed (on the half beat or something), you can’t move either forward or backward. You are essentially stuck in place, unless you are VERY good at “speed hopping” on one leg. (Not something I would advise to anyone).

Doesn’t paint a pretty picture in my eyes.



-John

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#340727 - 05/17/07 10:26 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
In NHB, one of the goal is to score points. On the other hand, the aim of self-defense is different. In my opinion, the way of kicking in self-defense situation can be different from NHB. For the same technique, the usage may be vary. For example, instead of side-kicks or round-house kicks, I would choose push-kicks or front-kicks. I think push-kick is a nice tool for offset opponent's balance while increasing space/distance at the same time. It can create an opening to escape (you don't want to entangle with your opponent if you are trying to run away). It can also send the opponent to a certain location (let say there are chairs/trash/whatever-objects behind your opponent, a push-kick is a nice way to push your opponent into that spot).

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