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#340698 - 05/11/07 05:34 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Tek,

the point about an mT kick isn't so much about whether those thrown landed with the instep but whether, if the target had moved, the kick would have been as efficient when the shin landed. As such, I'd suggest that this is the advantage over many TKD kicks.

I remember Bill wallace saying that when kick-boxing first started everyone was scared of these high power kicks but then they found it only took a slight deflection or movement to defuse a lot of the power from them. So, the point is that if you use a kick which needs a precise application it might not be as effective as you'd wish and that would be a problem in an MMA match.

As I said, in WTF TKD we get taught about jamming in and blocking, but we are not doing it with the thought of the opponent not stopping when they jam in. I mean, I can jam in and deliver a backfist or a kick but you wouldn't expect me to bulldoze you.

When I trained in Finland in 1994 (just when UFC began) the WTF club in Helsinki used to practice defence against wrestlers because wrestling has always been a big sport in northern Europe. Therefore you were more likely to find yourself fighting a wrestler in the street. Low kicks and evasion were the order of the day.

I'm not saying that TKD kicks can't be used, I think it is people are more wary of using them. Even guys like Mark Weir, who certainly can use them, tend to limit them when in full MMA.
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#340699 - 05/11/07 05:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
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I would also have to agree .... sorry John.

I think like anything, if you come from a kicking background and are proficient at it then you will be able to use it more effectively such as Cro Cop or GSP. This doesn't mean you rely on this and this alone as if you are in MMA then you know you had better be well rounded and be able to use your hands, sprawl, clinch, knee, elbow, grapple/wrestle and ground'n pound. However a person that comes from a kicking background will be more skilled then somebody that isn't or just kicks to fill in holes. The same thing can be said out grappling, striking, etc. If you come from any background you are more then likely going to be better at that one skill then the rest but then it is up to you to become more proficient in the others otherwise you leave yourself open. A good kicker is just that, and will be fast and will be able to utilize kicks more efficiently. He will also know when and when not to use them, much like the GSP vs. Matt Hughes fight.

But again, at this moment many are not coming from kicking backgrounds so for them to be proficient enough at them is out of the question. I'm coming on 5 years and still don't believe I'm anywhere near sufficient. I have basics with some being better then others but that's it. For some of these guys they have less MMA years in then myself in TKD/BJJ so for them to be able to use kicking at a high understanding and utilization, it just isn't going to happen. And with people now training MMA specifically they have bypassed any traditional kicking martial art and are getting rounded skills but not necessarily specific training in one area to make them better at it.

I have seen a rise in some fighter coming from kicking backgrounds especially in the smaller venues which is encouraging. Perhaps now that MMA is getting bigger and bigger the sport itself will have many others coming into it that have TMA and MMA skills.
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#340700 - 05/11/07 06:12 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I Lets focus our observations strictly to the UFC since now so many have had a chance to view it and it's fightersÖ

ÖI personally rarely see someone taken down after throwing a kick.





Iíve seen it a lot in different venues. Having one leg to stand on doesnít leave one with a very solid base. It can be boiled down to basic physics.

As pertains to the UFC specifically, all one needs to do is study the Mark Hominick - Jorge Gurgel fight.

Who was Hominick except for a well respected kick boxer? He was fighting a well known and respected grappler. Can you guess what he decided NOT to do in his fight? If you said kicking, you guessed right. He didnít kick in his fight and in fact, he back peddled through most of it. Why? He didnít want to get taken down. Smart man. He ended up winning that fight because he chose not to kick or, engage at all. His strategy to stay back and ďpot-shotĒ Gurgel was the key to his victory. A victory that might not have happened had he gone in with more gusto and, kicked.

A reason why you donít see many people taken down from throwing a kick is because the kicks are set up with punching better. They are quicker and low to the leg, using the Thai style approach of using the shin (and instep as you have alluded to). They are also used primary as a strategy against people who are either OTHER stand-up fighters themselves (those who demonstrate a desire to stay upright) or against those who are already tired and injured.

In other words, most of the time people chose to keep their feet on the ground and trade punching, setting up their kicks carefully and again, vs. others who demonstrate a willingness to keep a fight standing. I canít buy the notion that its easy to keep a fight standing when youíre flinging one leg of your base out away from you, particularly when one's opponent is adept at taking people down.

Even Chuck Liddell doesnít throw kicks that much. The guy is known for his hands. The reason? He doesnít want to get taken down and is pretty damned good at avoiding that. One big reason could be attributed to his use of his hands and his willingness to keep his feet beneath him.


Quote:


I see a lot of uskilled kickers in the UFC, just about every round kick is telgraphed and can be countered if the fighters had the right kind of trainnig. Kicing in the UFC and countering off kicks is an untapped resource. Fighters allow there opponenets to throw giant hay maker round kicks to the head and even allow them to do a complete 360 spin afterwards. In my style of TKD that is just totally unacceptable especially in self defense, and I would think these "pro" fighters would immediatly capitalize on a mistake like that. however, I feel it is because of the lack of training in countering kicks. Which is another tool in TKD that is learned.





Obviously TKD is not MMA. Itís a completely different animal. That will change the dynamics of things dramatically.

However all the UFC needs is someone to show folks how itís done. That sure hasnít been Crocop so far (who was incidentally KOíd by a kick, although that goes back to my earlier statement about kicks working better against other kickers).

I believe there exists somewhere, a record of how many fights were won by punching, kicking, ground and pound etc. It would be interesting to see those stats. I think youíd see clearly that punching out matches kicking per KO far and away. There is a reason for this. If Iím wrong, Iíll eat my words. But I doubt I am. Its fairly easy to see.


Quote:


I mentioned two kicks. The skip side kick and the back kick. Both kicks in WTF TKD use the heel as the striking surface, both of those kicks are linear kicks, if done correctoly there is no telegraph whatsoever.

Dereck while true that many MMA fighters do not come from a traditional MA background that only adds to my point of why TKD kicks are an untapped resource.






Interesting point you make. Iíd argue this; considering just how many TKD practitioners that there ARE in this freakiní world, why hasnít anyone been able to capitalize on such an ďuntappedĒ resource? The UFC is open to anyone who has proven his ability to fight. MMA (in THIS country alone) is already 14 years old. Thatís been plenty of time. In fact, I believe quite a few guys in the past were of traditional backgrounds. They didnít win much. Those that did were eventually beaten by grapplers.

Kicking of the sort that TKD boys like to do would change DRAMATICALLY if takedowns and clinching were allowed in training as done within wrestling and BJJ. Itís a different animal altogether that dictates what you can and canít get away with.


Quote:


And as far as thai kicking. I see more low roundhouses done with the instep rather than the shin. I watch Muay Thai fights as often as I can and I see those bad boys using the shins, but watch a UFc even and what you see are light round kicks due to the fact that these fighters don't seem to condition their shins like thai fighters do.





That is because of how risky kicking is in MMA. Kicking has to be performed SO much quicker with much less commitment, which is part of the point that Iím making to begin with. When you can be taken down because of the tactics that you choose, it will change the way you approach kicking. Thatís why those kicks are so light and non-committal. They HAVE to be, otherwise the kicker is going to be on his back fighting for the rest of the round. Not good if youíre a kick boxer first.


Quote:


An example can be GSp's last match against Matt Hughes. He must have thrown 10 low round kicks to Matt thigh or shin. All of his kicks were done using his instep. Until he finally went high and caught Hughes with a skip roundhouse. Which is a kick often used, but the skip side kick is not.




Then he went and fought Serra and was dropped by a punch.

I didnít see the Hughes/GSP fight so I canít fully comment on that. I will try and catch it on youtube when I can.

Though my opinion on side kicks is that they leave you with your hips in a bad position., making it much more difficult to defend the clinch and level changes in that manner. That isnít to say that they canít be done and done well within MMA, and perhaps they will. They just havenít been effective so far and arenít for a reason. You have to sprawl!


Quote:


I am not seeing a lot of take downs being down after kicks, what I see is a lot of telegraphed kicks either being blocked or the fighters backing up.





Perhaps this is due to the fact that most of the kicks youíre seeing are ďhiddenĒ behind punching, very quick, and non-committal in the way I mentioned previously? Perhaps itís also because these kicks are being used against other, more ďstand-upĒ oriented fighters and not grapplers? Perhaps also because when theyíre thrown, most fighters are either tired or injured? I donít know, but Iíd say those factors weigh heavily into the equation and have to be considered.



Quote:


Two things that are a bad idea versus the skip side and back kick. For now I'm just presenting these two kicks.




Again, with all of these TKD practitioners (perhaps the worlds most practiced style?), youíd think weíd have seen this by now? Maybe?


Quote:

Jkogas, you are correct sir, a lot of kicks are effective against tired opponents. To reasons why I think they are rarely used to knock people out with at that point. 1. The stand up fighter is also tired and cannot waist energy on a kick. 2. The stand up fighter is not tired however has very little knowledge on kicks un order to use it to finish the fight.





To rebut your points Iíd say:

1. Thatís when Iíve seen most kicks do their damage (when a fighter is tired)

2. Probably. It might also be because he doesnít want to get taken down. He may be ahead at that point and realizes the difference between a win and a loss could be a simple takedown. Those tend to score big points.

Who knows? But it IS an interesting debate.


-John

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#340701 - 05/12/07 07:00 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Gentlemen

This is not exatly the type of discussion I intended for. While I see most agree that kicking has it's place in MMA, my point was to demonstrate how it is under utilize and how certain kicks from taekwondo can enhance the pro mma fighter.

This discussion was meant more for those who are particularly from a TKD background, because they have more knowledge of the kicks, while certainly it is good to have a fresh perspective by those with different backgrounds in MMA, BJJ, and other striking arts. I was hoping we could stick to the kicks that I had mentioned.

The two kicks I proposed are certainly very useful. So useful that they could most likely be found in almost all styles of striking arts. The only reason why I brought it up in this forum was because they may not be used to such an extent as taekwondo emphasizes.

Later on perhaps we can discuss other kicks but for now, I propose we discuss why or why not the skip side kick/hop side kick and back kick/spinning back can or cannot, should or should not be part of a pro mma fighters arsenal.


_________________________
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#340702 - 05/12/07 08:45 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
To put it simply then,no the mentioned kicks do not work well for NHB fighting.Ive tried to incorporate them as I have a TKD background.The chambering,the stance you would be in to handle takedowns or shooting yourself,the full hip rotation,the recovery,all these things make it harder for the kicks to work.
They may work against the average joe or even average NHB guy yet against the best,which is what we should be training for because you never know who you might meet, it wont cut it.

This is why NHB is an art in itself.Even the Muay Thai kick has to be adapted.You cant afford to be stepping across,you cant afford to spin if you miss,you cant afford to have your hips forward like in a Muay Thai stance.All these changes make the kicks not TKD,not Muay Thai but NHB kicks...a newer evolved kick...thats the future its where its going.
Is the same for everything...punching purely for NHB..not boxing anymore...grappling for NHB ..not for a wrestling match.Yea,it may work against lots,yet t o be the best these things counnt,these little details.Its the way forward.
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#340703 - 05/12/07 01:17 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:



Later on perhaps we can discuss other kicks but for now, I propose we discuss why or why not the skip side kick/hop side kick and back kick/spinning back can or cannot, should or should not be part of a pro mma fighters arsenal.




OK Tek, I'll start with the skip side kick. I think this kick is useless in a MMA context. It is very high risk, it is pretty easy to avoid, with circular movement, or even just sprinting backwards. Not only that, but the position it is thrown from is a very side-on stance, allowing an easy takedown. I saw it done once on a "Bodog" fight, and let me tell you, the kicker came off worse! It wasn't that there was much wrong with the technique, it was just that the opponent evaded and took the guy down.

Now the back kick. Absolutely an effective kick, and has already been very well used by GSP and Cung Le. It is less high risk, because it is faster, and is very difficult to evaded to the kicker's disadvantage. It is also a very powerful kick, and is almost impossible to grab if done correctly. As I said, the kick's already being used, and I expect it will continue to appear every now and then among the better kickers in the MMA world.

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#340704 - 05/12/07 05:18 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Matxtx wrote
Quote:


They may work against the average joe or even average NHB guy yet against the best,which is what we should be training for because you never know who you might meet, it wont cut it.




Great point and one Iíve argued for years. I donít judge kickboxing by looking at the YMCA trained guys. I donít judge BJJ by looking at the blue belts. I donít judge wrestling by looking at the local high school talent. I look at the upper echelon guys.

You may be able to make things work against the inexperienced but, that does nothing but promote false confidence. Trying to kick a competent wrestler, especially if the kicker isnít ďworld classĒ (and how many of us are?) is just asking to be dropped hard. My advice would be to keep your feet on the ground. But thatís just me. I can tell you for SURE that Iím not gonna kick, lol! Iíve wrestled with too many good guys. I wonít make the mistake of weakening MY base.


Supremor wrote
Quote:


Now the back kick. Absolutely an effective kick, and has already been very well used by GSP and Cung Le. It is less high risk, because it is faster, and is very difficult to evaded to the kicker's disadvantage. It is also a very powerful kick, and is almost impossible to grab if done correctly. As I said, the kick's already being used, and I expect it will continue to appear every now and then among the better kickers in the MMA world.





I agree with this. Itís been shown to be pretty effective. However Iíd argue that only the best kickers are able to get away with it, especially against other upper echelon fighters. Many of MY points are in regard to self-defense. Lets take a guy who ISNíT a world class athlete and canít train for 6 to 8 hours a day. Kicking takes time to master. It also takes time to maintain. How much time in a day (along with everything else that you have to train) does one really have for martial arts?

If weíre talking about your typical working adult wanting to learn self-defense, why on EARTH would I start about teaching him or her to kick? As I see it, out of a hundred people, 10 to 15% of them may be able to develop their kicking to a reasonable degree.

What I DO see however is that people tend to pick up their hands much quicker (more coordinated through constant use) as well as the clinch; two things indispensable for self-defense. Thus that is what I focus on with people for about the first two years that they train with me. Kicking will NOT come into the picture until at least the two year mark, if then. It has been CLEARLY demonstrated by many, that you do not have to be a kicker, or, kick at ALL (think, Randy Couture) to be a world class fighter. Considering that self-defense is the primary objective for most folks, kicking isnít even needed at all. That cannot be said about the use of oneís hands or the clinch. Those items MUST be in place.

Thus in the spirit of discarding the unessential, guess what gets discarded (at least as far as Iím concerned)?


-John

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#340705 - 05/12/07 06:04 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
And one more.....

From Supremor
Quote:


Galesic's striking skills are obviously brilliant, and you are right John it does take a lot of skill to be that good. However, it takes about the same amount of skill to be a great wrestler, because everybody else is going to be a good wrestler. Galesic is an example of using striking skill to dominate, rather than wrestling skill.




Freddie, I hope this is the part of the post you wanted me to respond to. If not, please point it out and I will address it.

My opinion regarding this is; wrestling is a much more important skill for fighting and self-defense than is kicking. The time however has to be put into one area to get the most out of it. Thus if I had people interested in self-defense primarily (which is why many of us do this stuff), I would develop their hands and their wrestling ability, particularly more of a Greco-Roman, judo and BJJ game. Later on the kicking aspect can be added if the individual has a decent enough aptitude/talent for such a thing.

To further answer your question using another angle, lets say I had two equally skilled fighters. A pure kicker and a pure, wrestler, both are competent. They donít cross-train. If I had them fight ten times, I would put my money on the wrestler to win 8 or 9 of them.


Quote:


What's your take on submissions for use in grappling in MMA events? I've only been doing judo for a short while, however, I often feel that when I'm in someone's guard, I don't mind that much.




That would mean that YOU got the takedown and landed on top. It thus means that you were the better wrestler. You see, I look at the guard from a purely defensive point of view (while having it's own offensive potential). I WILL fight from there but Iím VERY active and look to attack aggressively and not simply lie back and await punishment. I will look to set up my own strikes, work for submissions and (more importantly), get out and back to my feet as quickly as possible, in hopes that I will win the next takedown and end up in a better, TOP position.

Again, I use the guard because I ended up on my back. Depending on whose guard youíve landed in, it can be relatively safe or extremely dangerous. Quite honestly, I donít see many people playing guard the way that I believe it ought to be played. But what the hell do I knowÖ..



Quote:


Indeed, I'd happily stay in their guard all match, because I can land a few strikes without fear of getting swept, and I'm pretty safe from them. However, the necessity to finish with a submission in my judo newaza means that just getting the top position and staying there isn't good enough. Just wanted to know that your thoughts were on the subject- are submissions really necessary for a mma competitor?





First, I think that most people suck from the guard. It takes a LOT of work and time to get really good at developing a guard thatís worth a crap if you ask me. Most people donít either put enough time into or, just havenít been coached effectively.

In terms of submissions, I think they are secondary to position. And should be. Thus in MMA its easier to obtain a position than to get a submission. However the gloves make that much more difficult. And truthfully, there arenít a lot of submissions to get. Chokes. A straight arm lock. A bent arm lock. Couple of leg submissions that are high risk. Really not a whole lot of things. But the gloves make it harder to execute them.

Are they needed? Well, a submission would leave no doubt as to the victor! You wouldnít leave a decision up to judges. I think they are very necessary if trained correctly within the MMA environment.



Cheers!


-John

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#340706 - 05/13/07 05:20 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Thanks John, as always a very interesting and well argued post.

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#340707 - 05/14/07 09:44 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
Please correct me if I am wrong. In my opinion, grappling and kicking are opposite: a grappler wants to get in close distance, but a kicker wants to keep the opponent away from him (at kicking range).

There is a Chinese quote describing the range of attack like:

One inch longer, one inch more powerful; Once inch shorter, one inch more dangerous.

I think it is like long spear vs. dragger, or kicking vs. grappling.

If the grappler catches kicker's leg, I think it is either the grappler is very good for getting close range, or the kicker makes a mistake for letting the grappler get close. On the other hand, a good kicker should kick at a distance where the opponent is unable to reach the kicker.

Maybe the hop-step roundhouse kick or hop-step sidekick is risky because the kicker moves closer to the opponent. A powerful spinning backkick or rear leg roundhouse can move the opponent away if it is landed, blocked or evaded. Compare to the rotation-power in spinning kicks or rear leg roundhouse kicks, the hop-step version is more difficult to generate the same kind of impact. Imagine the kicker throw a hop-step roundhouse kick at opponent and the opponent blocked the kick and not moved. The kicker is now closer to the opponent, which is favorable towards punch or grappling, if distance is close enough.

Maybe a hop-step kick charge in and then move out of range, or moving in and switch to punching or grappling.


Edited by TroTro (05/14/07 09:46 PM)

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