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#340748 - 05/18/07 10:22 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

The kick can work in the right context. So now that we got that out of the way, I wanted to discuss what kicks could work and what kicks wouldn't.




Well of course the back kick we know works but I always thought a cut kick could work. If you are repeatedly able to get away with leg kicks on your opponent whether he is a stand up fighter only or perhaps a very tired fighter, setting them up with the fake and following up with the other leg could really do damage. The cut kick actually is one of my favorite kicks.

Of course this again cannot just be used as you would be more off balance, though a good kicker I find can stay in balance and get off kicks quickly, which I think TeK would agree. Kicks have to be launched quickly and legs retracted and possibly the kicker moving back out of range to prepare for somebody with good hands or somebody trying to shoot in on your legs or your body. Again I think kicks are possible with a good kicker but they have their time and place.
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#340749 - 05/18/07 11:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
OKay Dereck, I'm gonna go with you on this one, lets discuss the cut kick. It may and may not work. It is possible sure, but I'm going to have to think NAY on this kick. The cut kick is purely for feeling your opponent out. It's used to see how they will react. In the kicking game such as TKD it's used to either see if they stay still or move, that way you have an idea how they will follow up to your attack this gives you insight regarding what kind of fighter they are, whether they are sensitive or not, how responsiove they are or if they are just sluggish. This works great in a kicking game because the cut kick doesn't always contain much power, but in a NHB if they don't move back and your cut kick doesn't have much stopping power, I think you set yourself up for a take down.

However, the other side of the coin. If you have a sensitive opponenet who reacts to everything you do and when you cut kick they react and step back, then you can immediately initiate a second or third attack with kicks if you want, because since they reacted by giving you more space, which is exactly what a kicker wants to do his thing.

So Dereck, like the kicks I suggested, the cut kick has it's usefulness if done in the right context. Can it work? Sure. Would I try? probably no more than 2 or 3 times in a match. Otherwise they can feel me out instead.

But I've never seen anyone use a cut kick in a pro fight. I've only seen feints done
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#340750 - 05/19/07 04:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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I've never seen it either and when we doing MMA type of fighting I am probably one of the few. Again like any kicking I believe it could work but it has to be at the right time. I wouldn't just initiate it or even plan to do it and that is what I think with all kicks. Only if the fight dictates it may work.

For instance if I am getting away with continued kicks to my opponents legs and he is getting weaker and now is cluing in and will want to stop this kick then I "may" use the cut kick to feint the kick and then counter with the actual kick. I though disagree with you saying that it doesn't have much stopping power. I find the cut kick to be extremely powerful especially if you understand the dynamics and turn that hip. However this is a risky kick and probably why you don't see it as you may be jammed and knocked off balance. I think this hits the head on the nail for almost all kicks and why the limited kicking.
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#340751 - 05/20/07 11:29 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I not sure I get what you mean.
I cant afford to be moving my feet about everywhere,I have to stay in the same stance as much as possible or I will be predictable.My feet have to be the same width apart all the timeto keep balance and move well.

My concern too is the more about the hips.My hips are more square to be able to shoot or sprawl so to do a front leg side kick would be a bit like doing aback leg side kick and having to turn my hips over.In a TKD stance the idea of the front leg hop side kick,and not doing a back leg side kick, is because its fast because you hips are virtualy aready chambered.
NHB hasnt got the luxery of chambers and re-chambers.

Its not a wrestslers stance because you cant strike or defend strikes,its not a strikers stance because you cant wrestle or defend wrestling.Its something inbetween.It simply has to be.

To be in a stance that makes you able to do TKD kicks fast and powerfully means sacrificing the ablitly to wrestle well.An ability needed against he best.

Try it...stand more square and try these kivks..its awkward and slower with lots more of movement than being side on.Which is where TKD kicks are good and designed for.
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#340752 - 05/27/07 02:37 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Matxt when I first statrted TKD we practiced old school way. When we did kicks we had to do them utilizing all stances. yes that even includes getting into a low front stance and executing a front kick with our rear leg. Same goes for round house, we performed them from a side horse stances and a back stance. So when you say that TKD kicks cannot be done in NHB or against wrestlers because the stances would render the kicks useless. I have to respectfully disagree wit you.

If you stand in the same spot, squared off in order to sprawl or shoot, then your pretty much being predictable.

I predict your going to be standing there, hips square in the same spot not moving. Standing perfectly still for me to kick you. BLA-DOW, CA-PaNG, PoW-WoW
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#340753 - 05/27/07 01:55 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
First off I was offering my opinion and my personal experience on attempting to use these kicks in NHB enviroments from ACTUALY HAVING TRIED IT.No theory.Just simple deduction and common sense.
I was also refering to side kicks and I mentioned round kicks when refering to the WTF or sports way with the Knee chambered in front.

I think footwork is very important and your prediction of me standing there square on like a sitting duck is totaly wrong.

Front kicks I have not mentioned.

I agree that the old style way of doing the round kick would work better,not ideal because it still requires a chamber and and an arcking roundness,yet better.And because,like you say,when training they are done from sqaure stances.

To get into the round kick,the reason people prefer the Muay Thai kick is because its done straight legged,no chamber (Although there kind of is what some call a chamber and I know some camps kick slightly diffferent ways so its a case do I use the word chamber or not use it haha), and is powerfull because of the total body movement behind it.
In the TKD traditional the round kicks do use body in them ,mainly hip,though not as much because of re-chambering which requies the knee,which acts as a break,to snap it out then back.

The use of the arms to get power is never mentioned in TKD either.
The Muay Thai kick cant even be done EXACTLY as it is in that style becuase it isnt a Muay Thai match..its NHB.You cant afford to spin if you miss,like you would in Muay Thai.Or have the time to step across with the supporting leg before the kick,like in MT.
NHB is adapting as its own thing.
Dont forgett,im coming from the angle of the best of the best.Fighting a 6 year old you could do a double backflip then kick them.

The thread is kind of making out that people in NHB are not skilled at TKD enough to do the kicks that where mentioned.My point is that its not that.Its because the kicks dont fit im affraid.Tactically or physicaly against the best,they dont fit in.Kineticaly and technicaly they dont!The NHB fighter will choose other,simpler,tacticaly better ways.
How the hell do you sprawl after it misses or is blocked with your leg in the fricking air re-chambing?Or deal with tie ups?
How do you chamber in the first place before they have seen it coming and are on you?
Some might say they are not against the best.
How do you know that untill its too late?How do you know how good anyone attacking you might be? And how do you get better and progress if its not to have goals to be the best?Might as well go home if its a half arsed against a nobody kind of training session.

The NHB fighters are doing the simplest things,the most powerffull.
This is the whole thing about it.The revolution to the mainstream.That its not fancy,its not technicaly amazingly perfecy,or looks artistic.
Its messy, tiring choas.

Watching good TKD kicks in their own enviroment iswonderfull.Doing them is wonderfull too.
In NHB enviroments they are too long winded and dont tactical solve the problems of what could happen in NHB.
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#340754 - 05/27/07 02:08 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Actualy,it doesnt even matter if the TKD kicks can be done in Horse stance or back stance.No one in their right mind would be in those stances.There is no mobility.
So just training them in those stances does not give an argument for there use.
Are they still powerfull from those stances?Where they trained mobile in these stances?Where they done on pads from those stances?Were they taking into account tactics and what happens next?I doubt it.
More like against thin air in line work in a calm place no stress.

Thats the thing with this kind of stuff..its trained a s though it goes perfectly well and works and is all hunky dory.
NHB and real things are NEVER perfect or going well.Unpredictable choas.

Another thing is that when talking of round kicks in NHB its got to be mainly a low roundkick.And in TKD the mechanics of low kicking are not gone into at all!Its mid/ high..if it is low then it will be borrowed from MT because for stand up its the best low kick there is.


Edited by matxtx (05/27/07 02:41 PM)
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#340755 - 05/27/07 03:17 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Actualy,it doesnt even matter if the TKD kicks can be done in Horse stance or back stance.No one in their right mind would be in those stances.There is no mobility.
So just training them in those stances does not give an argument for there use.
Are they still powerfull from those stances?Where they trained mobile in these stances?Where they done on pads from those stances?Were they taking into account tactics and what happens next?I doubt it.
More like against thin air in line work in a calm place no stress.





I think you have misunderstood Tek's point here Matt. Tek is arguing that once upon a time TKD fighters trained their kicks from classical stances. However, they found this ineffective from a mobility point of view, so they changed the stances and footwork to be more mobile. Tek is arguing that if it was done once, why can it not happen again- why can't the kicks be integrated into a new type of footwork?

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#340756 - 05/27/07 03:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
If the kicks are changed to deal with
footwork for NHB then that goes with what iv been saying that its not being TKD anymore..its NHB.
So try it.Do it.I am all for that.Thats what I try to do.And it does not work well with TKD kicks.It would mean changing them .The kinematics and mechanics of the kick.
Its gone round in circles.

Your right,it was changed.But changed for what?....To work in stand up,fast paced TKD matches with TKD rules and a more side on stance.The creators did not think of NHB tactics,they thought of TKD sport tactics.Hence the whole reason the kicks are done like they are.

In a fight ANYTHING can happen.If ,after doing something, a fighter ends up in a position and he has a TKD background and he can use something in that moment,fair enough,it might work and come into play.Though to deliberatly go out with it in mind as a tactic,I dont think will work well and has been proven not to.


Edited by matxtx (05/27/07 04:12 PM)
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#340757 - 05/29/07 05:59 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
It's sad that not many people participated in this thread. I was hoping we could have a deeper discussion with fresh perspectives bringing something new everyday. Unfortunately no one wants to discuss TKD outside the realm of TKD.

While I now understand Matxtx point of view I still must respectfully disagree.

While I see now that your entire argument was meant to demonstrate why NHB fighters often kick as if they were swinging a bat. This is not the case for everyone. Those who come from a kick boxing and muay thai background still chamber their kicks, which is no different than WTF TKD kicks.

In my opinion the the whole point in chambering is to execute a faster less telegraphed kick which is why I believe it is used in Olym[ic style TKD because it allows for rapid multiple kicks to be used in succession. Not that such combo's can be done in NHB, but it demonstrates that the kicks would not be seen or telegraphed.

Anyways a kick is a kick. What I was really trying to get at was adding some of the more advanced kicks in TKD, the kicks that involve foot work. Skip/hop kicks, cut kicks, step through side kicks, spinning back kicks.

The total opposite of these kikcks would be hand and footwork, maneuvers such as the spinning back fist, superman punch, step in jab. All those maneuvers require footwork prior to the punch.

That is what I was really trying to get at with the kicks. I am not sure how other TKD styles train. But sparring in Olympic style requires that we learn foot work, attacks, and counter attacks. Some of these maneuvers can be applied to NHB. But Oh well we never got to that point, lets move on to something more closer to home I guess.
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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