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#340728 - 05/17/07 10:34 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

In NHB, one of the goal is to score points.






In NHB/MMA, kicks are used for KO or knockdown - just like they would be in self defense. Perhaps you are thinking of point sparring?
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#340729 - 05/17/07 10:45 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
Opps, i was trying to say point sparring. Err... I need some coffee ^^;

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#340730 - 05/17/07 11:05 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
fmorris Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 17
NHB is not self defense. Two guys a padded cage, usually knowlegeable of the other person's skills, with rules, however few, squaring off and fighting with a referee and without the interference of others, is not a self defense situation. Why make the comparison? If you search "kick ko" on youtube there is a video of a guy kicking another guy in the head in a parking lot, while both are standing. He Kos the guy, who was obviuosly not expecting it. You have to be good at kicking to use it, but don't you have to be good at wrestling to use it as well? I've seen a lot more people kicking and punching each other in fights than I have doing BJJ style grappling. I've also seen much smaller people kick larger people and injur them. Why try to discredit? How many Kevin Randlemans are there out there, stalking our streets, waiting to shoot in on those silly kickers and steal our wallets? If I kick someone, I'm not going to say "watch out for my TKD!!" I think anyone with good training will use the most simple thing possible, be it kick or whatever, to win a self defense encounter. I know it's not the poular opinion, but i do not think watching UFC fights is the end all for martial arts theory and debate. Just because something doesn't work against Kevin Randalman doesn't mean it won't work against the drunk guy who just slapped your wife.


Edited by fmorris (05/17/07 11:06 AM)

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#340731 - 05/17/07 11:15 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: fmorris]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

NHB is not self defense.




Please do not make a strawman here. I never said NHB = SD. However, the active elements of timing, motion and energy are the same as it would be against any other type of resistant opponent.
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#340732 - 05/17/07 05:23 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Tek said:

Quote:

Someone mentioned earlier that the hop side kick would not be useful because of the stance or position it leaves you in. I trained so that I always maintain a proper fighting or boxers stance. My hands are always up. My knees are bent, my rear heel is off of the ground and I am in a forward position capable of immediately attacking and countering.




This stance is an example of what will make TKD kicks easier but because its now NHB it makes sprawling harder,dealing with tie ups harder,shooting in harder.
And if you go into a stance to deal with those then i makes kicking TKD style ,like the hop side kick,harder.Make that suicidal.

A boxers or traditional stand up fighting stance wont let you cope with all of it.If you have your legs one forward lots a fair bit more than the front lika a boxers everything wrestling wise becomes difficult.Your hands are too far in close to reach out or catch or pummel.You cant suddenlt be switching stances to do different things.
From the stance needed to deal with NHB the kicks of TKD technicaly and physicaly dont fit.They were designed for you body to be in the start position a TKD guy would be in against andother stand up or mainly another TKD guy and not to be facing the tactics of a wrestler.


Edited by Supremor (05/17/07 05:26 PM)

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#340733 - 05/17/07 08:04 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I completely disagree with you matxtx. What makes my stance different from any kick boxer? What your calling ineffective is your own personal bias on the boxers stance. Ever single kick boxer in the UFC uses a traditional boxing stance.

There are even strikers with no kick boxing back grounds who use this stance. What you calling as the superior "UFC" stance is none other than the wrestlers stance which is basically a flat footed front stance. Some strikers adaopt this stance in order to get ready for a wrstlers take down, because it allows them to sprawl quickly.

I on the other hand I prefer a boxers stance with a boxers footwork. I like to move around. I will never strike with both of my feet flat footed. If a wrestler shoots at me I move back or move in circles to avoid, sprawling for me is a last resort. It's like blocking, if I have to block I will, but it's a back up to avoiding the attack altogether.

For instance every fighter from team quest regardless of whether they are strikers or wrestlers get into that flat footed forward stance, all ready to shoot and sprawl when they get shot on. But in my opinion they have a weakness that can be exploited by a boxers footwork. A good comparison would be Chris Lebon vs Anderson Silva. Lebon having a reputation for having heavy hands went into the ring flat footed throwing hard punches. Silve came in using foot work moving in and out with his punches, going into range then out of range using his jabs. He was able to catch Lebon because of his superior foot work which kept him away from Lebons punches.

That fight led him to fight then Middle weight champion Rich Franklin. And using the same kick boxers tance he used the MT clinch and destroyed Franklin with knees to the stomach and face. Using the clinch to keep Franklin off balance. This is how I train also, I emphasize the MT clinch in my training and footwork.
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#340734 - 05/18/07 06:18 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Okay folks now lets introduce a different kick how about a hop front kick or skip front kick. A front kick is a kick often used in Muay Thai often it is used to push and knock down the opponent using the heel. However, being that this is a TKD discussion on TKD kicks we've added footwork to it. The slight hop/skip allows for deception, distance covered, speed and power.

Like the hop/skip side kick this is a linear kick, it can be done with a push or with a quick snap.

In the UFC you often see strikers use a MT front kick or push kick, it is often very telegraphed the user brings their knee up to a high chamber then thrusts their leg out. Often the kick is aloud because it can easily dodged. But sometimes when done in closed proximity the opponent just takes the hit.

Adding the hop/skip for obvious reasons would be a advantageous I believe. What say you folks?
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#340735 - 05/18/07 10:28 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
IMHO, toss in WTF 45-degrees-round-kick as a mix with front-kick and push-kick can be interesting. Combine with skip/hop step low roundhouse kick, knee feint/shin block, and jab, it should be less predictable. However, it depends heavily on footwork.

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#340736 - 05/18/07 11:17 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Okay folks now lets introduce a different kick how about a hop front kick or skip front kick. A front kick is a kick often used in Muay Thai often it is used to push and knock down the opponent using the heel. However, being that this is a TKD discussion on TKD kicks we've added footwork to it. The slight hop/skip allows for deception, distance covered, speed and power.

...

Adding the hop/skip for obvious reasons would be a advantageous I believe. What say you folks?





I like the front kick, but I don't particularly like the hop step. Although it is quick footwork, it is also not particularly stable, because your weight needs to be high up so higher centre of mass= easier to take down. I say scrap the hop step and the front kick can be used effectively- in certain circumstances anyway.

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#340737 - 05/18/07 12:41 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Ok.Its cool you disagree im not going to try to change your mind just stand by mine.
Its just common sense.

Im not biased towards a boxers stance.I think the boxers stance is great...for boxing.
The MT stance is great......for MT.
The wrestling stance is great.......for wrestling.

NHB is all of these combined so it makes total sense that you need to be able to do all these things.If you choose one of these stances over the other it makes doing something else harder.

Im coming from the veiw of fighting the best.Against people who can do it all.I never know untill its too late if the person attacking me has 'done a bit' so its simpler for me to train with the best in mind.

Im not actualy saying what stance to do or going into it,its impossible in writing.Im saying that a stand up stance makes you vunerable for defence against a person who can take you down,pummel and tie you up,and less able to takedown them or tie them up.Its possible..if they are a mug though its too risky.

If you were to be in a wrestlers stance you cant strike so I havnt mentioned a 'UFC stance.

I would also beg to differ that any one at the top is in a boxing stance...they are more sqaure on.Making it harder to side kick or do the knee chambers of TKD kicks.
What if your side kick misses..or they step back...you are side on...so so vunerable.

I think your also assuming that the person you face is a dunce and will not do footwork or feint to shoot on you and that they will wave a big sign saying 'im coming'.Not so.

Footwork is essential yes.Im not saying be flat footed or do a wrestlers stance,you cant as now you cant strike as well as is needed.

Ill put my head on the line,without checking footage yet and say that I reckon the best in the world are more square on that boxers or kickboxers...maybe they are more so if they have MT backrounds yet I bet there hips are not as forward.

If you atart going deeper..being side on makes you vunerable to their low kicks taking out both of your legs..ending up on your arse.

Imnot talking about facing just some wrestler who is flat footed im talking about facing someone who can do it ALL back to you and you dont know whats coming.

And as for circling foot work..its actualy easier to face different directions more square on that do it more side on as thefeet have to move more.
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