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#340738 - 05/18/07 01:34 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
One more thing I would like to add folks. I hope I have not given the impression that kicks would be the main tool in our arsenal. I understand that the main tools are striking and while I personally feel that certain tkd kicks can be adopted and functional in an NHB environment I am not under any delusions that sound wrestling skills take presidence over kicking ability.

While often the hands are used to set up kicks, I find that kicks with footwork are great openers or ways to get inside close range. So far all the kicks I have suggested have a forward momentum to them, footwork that would enable someone to get inside and upclose in order to deliver punches from mid range, clinch, and throw knees and elbows.

While the generlization is that TKD is 80% kicks, when discussion it in a NHB environment I'd had hoped that you would imagine who would use these techniques sparingly with the right time. While you can find tons of examples on the internet of TKD fighters entering kick boxing matches or karate vs TKD matches and only using their kicks, I'd have hoped that you would give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that the NHB fighter I refer to would already be well rounded and versed in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, boxing, and muay thai, however, as the added benefit he would pull from the TKD arsenal to enhance their game.

In previous posts the examples of comparing a wrestler to a kicker would show just how effective and essential it is to have a solid ground game. While this prioritizes were kicks would fit within the tools of NHB tricks, I believe it is beneficial to add the kicks on top of what skills the fighter already possess'.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
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#340739 - 05/18/07 01:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The answer in my mind and my points have been that the hope of pulling the TKD kicks into the arsenal of an NHB fighter will not likely happen as the mechanics of the kick dont fit with NHB.So its unlikely to happen.Sorry everyone,they dont fit into it.Techniacaly and pysicaly.
If someone works on adapting the kick..maybe.But then they would end up with a kick that probably doesnt resemble TKD kicks anymore.Its the logical conclusion.

And im not anti TKD at all...I still train in it.lol.My eye is on the whole picture though.
Its not that anyone is not good enough to do TKD kicks in NHB its that there is no sensible ,common sense or technicaly and tacticaly sound way for them to do them and be the best.
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#340740 - 05/18/07 06:11 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
TeK, I can understand what you are doing and I expect you to be very proficient at TKD and its kicks, and certainly more skilled them myself. I think just about any kick can work as long as it is used at the right time and the person doing it has a good understanding of its dynamics, and also depending on who their opponent it. However what you are trying to do is find a place for TKD in the fighting world or even the MMA world and that is where the problem lies.

I think that John will agree with me on this but what we have to do is stop thinking of styles in these instances but rather think of the "fight". There are no styles when it comes to fighting whether it is for your life or in a MMA match. There are so many dynamics involved that by limiting yourself to one style you will lose. The rules are different if there are any rules. You have to use all of your tools whether it is striking, kneeing, elbowing, sweeping, tripping, grappling, wrestling, ground'n pound and yes kicking. Without all of this you are missing aspects of the fight and your tool box is limited to what you will have to use when you need it.

When it comes to competitions whether sparring TKD or even grappling, I have found that the basics are what get you by. Sure there are people that know some flashy kicks or have some great armbar/leg lock move but overall the basics are what get you by. When it comes to fighting or even MMA again that is what wins the majority of the fights, basics. If basics dictate that you should punch then you should. If they dictate you should shell then shell. Clinch, throw knees or elbow or even kick, let the fight dictate what you will use. A surprise kick in the beginning such as you have last posted may catch somebody off guard but not everybody, but it is a possibility. I have heard it time and time again and I also believe it, "be first" as that can dictate the fight in many cases. So I wouldn't get hung up on kicking in these instances but rather what will work at that time.

Kicking is great, I like kicking and I know you do. The better you are at kicking the more likely you will be able to get them off and be successful. Your opponent however can change that and can nullify kicks if they are good at that. I consider GSP a great kicker, as do I think David Loiseau is however I have seen both have their kicks nullified and hence they use other skills that the fight dictates. If there is distance then the kick can work great but up close then it is time for hands. If clinched up then you work your body, elbows, knees or go for the take down. On the ground the dynamics change yet again and you do what the fight dictates, shell or go for the knock out or wrap up your opponent, use elbows or punch, or what have you.

I think with the kicking aspect and NHB you are trying to find a place for TKD in that world and trying to fit a square into a circle and are having difficulty doing so. However if you shave away the corners of the square you can make a circle and it fits well and that is becoming well rounded as a fighter and utilizing all of the skill and not worrying about if NHB lacks TKD. TKD is there if you know what to watch for but when it boils down to the fight, that is what it is, a fight. It isn't TKD, it isn't wrestling, it isn't BJJ, it isn't Muay Thai ... it is fighting. You may be a TKD'st or a BJJ'st or what have you as your "base" martial art but when you enter that ring/octagon or are on the street you are fighting and much looks the same that many things are so indistinguishable only because they are the same. Fancy TKD kicks can work but the basics will win it more then not. And if I kick you in the head with a high roundhouse and knock you out ... I see that just as a kick that could have been learned from any martial art and if it is TKD then I give a cheer because I am TKD, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it was a kick, not flashy just the basics.

I hope I haven't derailed this as that wasn't my intention. I was trying to answer the original theme of NHB lacks TKD. I don't think it does, it gets used when it is needed. What NHB does lack is fighters who don't know how to kick properly when the fight dictates it.
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#340741 - 05/18/07 06:20 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
matxtx,

I don't quite completely understand exactly what your trying to say. I understand it but I just cant picture it. Could you please elaborate by giving better examples?

1. Are you saying TKD kicks wont work because of a TKD stance? or because of a wrestlers stance?

2. How is a TKD totally different from any other kick except for the fact that TKD kicks "technically" better. Meaning much research has gone into making them faster, stronger, and practical from traditional karate kicks. I say this because in order to evolve the martial art in a more sports context they have taken into consideration timing and distance and have compensated with footwork, something many other styles of karate have not done.

3. In Olympic style sparring competitors only use two forms of fighting stance. One is a complete side stance, this is used to minimize the amount of targets on your body. The second stance is a forward stance, this is often the preferred stance as it allows you to be more aggressive and because of the more forward position of your body it allows for your rear leg chamber to be quicker because it travels at a shorter by only moving straight up; your body has less to turn your trunk is already forward facing your opponent as opposed to being in a side stance were you must turn your entire trunk to face your opponent. This is the stance I prefer.

In both stances, the body is kept lightly forward in order to keep the forward momentum to attack and to counter attack. Usually the back heel is kept off the ground, there is often a bounce like in boxing, but often temporary like in boxing.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340742 - 05/18/07 06:22 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Dereck, I think you make a number of very good points. You are right to say that in the end, a fight is just a fight, and if something works then great, but why try and force TKD to work in a disadvantageous position- that is squaring a circle. Bravo!

Matxt, I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are wrong when you say that kicking does not work "technically and physically," the fact that we do see kicking used effectively on occasion and even see a few knockouts with them, shows that they are certainly POSSIBLE to perform without conflicting with the rest of your mma game.

Tek, as Dereck said, you are obviously a very skilled TKD practitioner and far be it from me to tell you what you can and cannot do. However, I do think you are trying too hard to justify specific kicks in a NHB context. It is so difficult to argue the case for such and such a kick, because in the end someone will always be able to find a way to counter it, and thus conclude that it is ineffective. Think of BJJ, there is almost always a way to counter a technique, but the question is whether or not that counter will be used by your opponent. This does not validate BJJ, because as a PACKAGE, the skills are usable.

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#340743 - 05/18/07 06:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Dereck,

I know I keep using the word "TKD" kicks, but in reality I know they are just tools. Lets be realistic, I have not named any kicks that are not found in karate schools, and certainly they can be found in kick boxing and in pride fights.

The footwork involved in the skip/hop kicks is already being used. Nearly everyone throws a skip round kick, whether they aim low or high, they are using a hop/skip roundhouse kick.

All I did was change the kick. Instead of a round kick, I changed it for a side kick, this doesn't make the kick any slower, it's a linear kick, and this most certainly doesn't make you any less vulnerable when employing this kick. linear kicks have more power.

But if you had two NHB fighters all things being equal both proficient in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, boxing, muay thay. And both were at a stalemate would it not be advantageous for one of the fighters to put their kicking ability into use, to pull out tricks not yet seen by other fighters? And I for one feel that the likely hood of a kicking technique landing or scoring on an opponent depends not just on the kickers ability but on whether the opponent has training learning to anticipate, recognize, and react appropriately to a kick. I have yet to have formal training in ground grappling, but I have sat in a few classes at the local Cesar Gracie school, Ralph Gracie school and other Gracie who teaches out here at the local American karate club. And I have yet to see them practice countering kicks.

Would a fighter such as this use a kick within close range...of course not, but a kick such as this could be used to close the distance, and as you put it "be first" after all your leg is two to three times longer than your arm, and three to four times stronger.

And given the right amount of time and practice it can be developed into a useful tool, and if the other guy doesn't have those 3 thins I mentioned above to deal with a kick, the more better for you. This is how I currently feel about my kicks. I've started other threads where I've confessed to dumping several techniques that I feel did not work for me, the kicks I mention here are very basic, they involved footwork but we do train after all.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340744 - 05/18/07 06:45 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Supremor,

Your last paragraph, could not the same be argued for kicks as well. Just replace TKD kicks with bjj and you have the same point I made several post above. That a person could always find a way to counter a kick but this does not invalidate the kicks usefulness. The kick can work in the right context. So now that we got that out of the way, I wanted to discuss what kicks could work and what kicks wouldn't. You have made it clear that you only prefer the most basic of kicks, and by the way I agree with you, because currently every kick being used by both wrestlers and strikers are the most basic. Now perhaps some might consider the skip/hop kicks advance, but the fact is everyone already uses skip/hop round kicks, whether they kick low to the legs or high with them, this kick is commonly used, all I did was change the kick, the footwork is still the same.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340745 - 05/18/07 06:51 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Tough to keep up with your guys, every time I think I've addressed a post another one pops up. I do consider myself a good kicker. Hey why not, I put in the practice and the sparring time for the better part of a decade. And that is why I feel a good kicker can be made in 2 years. I've also discarded many of the kicks in the TKD arsenal. The ones that happen to look tricky or advanced are the ones that require a minimal amount of foot work. in reality I see how easy they are onces you put in the practice, to a layman these movements probably seem completely out of their depth because they don't know the simple mechanics involved. This is something that everyone in TKD has had to discover, that at first something that looks extremely difficult is actually very simple, once you know the nuances of the technique you can make it work. Much of TKD's flashiness is like this.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340746 - 05/18/07 07:09 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
When I say kicks dont work technicaly and physicaly I mean the kicks we are talking about.And kicks done in a TKD way,especialy WTF.
They were created for the style of sparring they do...for the stance they are in.the leg can come directly up to chamber the knee.Or for the side kick,which we are discussing,because you are more side on,the front leg can be popped out.It works.

Now...for the about the 3rd time...when you fight NHB you are dealing with everything,takedowns,tie ups,striking,kicking,whatever and also needing to take them down,tie them up and strike and kick them ALL at the same time..so you stance would have to be wider and more square to be ableto do all this effectively offensively and defensively.

This means the front leg would be more outside of them so to side kick you would haveto bring it in line them,THEN pop it forward which is more awkward to do and you get usefull power in the time you would haveto do it for it not to be countered...ESPECIALY against a very good person.
To go into the knee chamber in front roundkick..its the back leg which is out of position now if your stance is more square,which it has to be to deal with sprawls and to attempt takedowns.

Kineticaly TKD kicks would be worse and for power ,which you realy need,you techniacaly would not get it.
Its simple, tactical, common sense blinded by the fact that most WANT the TKD kicks to work so much.Again,sorry if that offends.

Basicaly in NHB you find yourself and put yourself in different positions to deal with the things coming at you .This puts you pyhsicaly on different planes and angles.So to generate power effectively and tacticaly it takes different techniques. This is why NHB is an art in itself..these things are being developed now.Study the human body and see.Try it.Im figuring it our by training in NHB and being influence by and training with people like Steve Morris,who is proberbly the only person bordering geniuse in martial arts today, and ,like Dereck said, leaving behind attachment to styles and concentrating on the fight itself.
Ill put my head on the line again and say in years time there will be a pure NHB style that uses these positions to generate power in a particular way for anything goes fights.Not new as such.just adapted.

I know what I mean in my head cant explain it as well though haha.So I willleave it here and beleive what I do andstand by it, by trying it and testing.


Edited by matxtx (05/18/07 07:52 PM)

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#340747 - 05/18/07 10:09 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
Quote:

...
This means the front leg would be more outside of them so to side kick you would haveto bring it in line them,THEN pop it forward which is more awkward to do and you get usefull power in the time you would haveto do it for it not to be countered...



Instead of popping the front foot forward, you may move your feet forward/backward/sideway at an angle (a side-step) to line up your feet in a sideway orientation. Because a side-stepping is involved, it may create opening while your opponent is adjusting his orientation. Of cause your opponent will move/turn too, that is where the quick footwork comes into play. To switch back to a more square-ish orientation (boxer stance, etc), move your feet forward/backward/sideway at an angle (another side-step).


Edited by TroTro (05/18/07 10:11 PM)

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