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#340708 - 05/15/07 06:21 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


If the grappler catches kicker's leg, I think it is either the grappler is very good for getting close range, or the kicker makes a mistake for letting the grappler get close. On the other hand, a good kicker should kick at a distance where the opponent is unable to reach the kicker.




I don't quite understand this Trotro. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if you are in range to hit someone with a kick, then you are in range to have it caught. So in order to kick effectively, the kicker must accept the risk of a kick being caught.

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#340709 - 05/15/07 07:13 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if you are in range to hit someone with a kick, then you are in range to have it caught. So in order to kick effectively, the kicker must accept the risk of a kick being caught.





Exactly! Couldn't have said it better. If you can touch your opponent anywhere with any part of your body (ie, the feet), then he can touch YOU as well.

If you are in range to "touch" a grappler, even with just your big toe, you're in his range. If he's good, he can close that distance in a blink of the eye (think Kevin Randleman here).

Would you want to risk fighting off your back? If so, have a good guard folks. That is why if you are kicker and are NOT also training Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you might want to think that there could be something wrong with you. Just my opinion.


-John

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#340710 - 05/15/07 10:22 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
Quote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if you are in range to hit someone with a kick, then you are in range to have it caught. So in order to kick effectively, the kicker must accept the risk of a kick being caught.




I agree with you. A kick (or any technique) has a chance to succeed and a chance to fail. We can also apply it to punches too: If you are in range to hit someone with a punch, then you are in range to have it caught/trapped. So in order to punch effectively, the puncher must accept the risk of an arm being caught/trapped.

But I think just because a kick has a chance of being caught, that does not mean kicks will fail everytime.

Quote:


Exactly! Couldn't have said it better. If you can touch your opponent anywhere with any part of your body (ie, the feet), then he can touch YOU as well.

If you are in range to "touch" a grappler, even with just your big toe, you're in his range. If he's good, he can close that distance in a blink of the eye (think Kevin Randleman here).

Would you want to risk fighting off your back? If so, have a good guard folks. That is why if you are kicker and are NOT also training Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you might want to think that there could be something wrong with you. Just my opinion.

-John




What if the kick does not "touch" the grappler? (like Feint, or feint and follow up with combination hand strikes or kicks?)

If the grappler is "good", then yes, I agree with you. However, it depends on who is grappling, and who is kicking. A person has grappling skill does not mean that he is immune to all kicks everytime in every situations.

If the opponent knows the kick is coming, then the kick most likely will fail. For example, if the kicker frequently use the same kick, by all means, catch the leg and punish the kicker

If you are going to kick someone, would to let him know where/when/how you are going to kick him? For kicking, we should consider:
-- Timing.
-- Distance.
-- Direction/angle/target.
The three things above can be vary and a kicker would try to hide his intention as well. Besides kicking, the kicker has an opinion NOT to kick and use something else. IMHO, it is very situational.

If the kick is weak (either the kicker is weak physically, or mechanic of that kick is weak), the opponent may take the hit (if he is strong enough) and return the kicker a favor (grappling, takedown, punch, kick, knee, elbow, etc).

If the kicks are fast and powerful, with variety of timing, distance and direction/angle/target, plus the kicker is trying to hide the intention of his kicks. Instead of thinking kick as one kick at a time, try to think in terms of combinations: like hand + foot attacks, multiple kicks, footwork + feint/kicks...

To be honest, NHB lacks TKD.


Edited by TroTro (05/15/07 10:57 AM)

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#340711 - 05/15/07 01:16 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

If the grappler is "good", then yes, I agree with you. However, it depends on who is grappling, and who is kicking. A person has grappling skill does not mean that he is immune to all kicks everytime in every situations.




Example: George St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes

Good grappler against a good kicker and in this one incident the kicker won.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#340712 - 05/15/07 01:47 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
To twist it,maybe TKD lacks NHB.lol

As a fighter ,in my opinion,a big aim should be to be able to hit them when they they dont think you can and without them being able to do anything about it or anything back.Thats a skill.A skill to be aimed for and forever even if I might not get there.Though in aiming for that I will get better.
So thats part of the skill and knowledge of being able to kick...or do anything.
Overall the perfect thing realy would be to be good at it all,kicking ,punching,striking,clinching/head fighting and grappling.
It also means that your mind is just thinking of opportunitys to just finish in any way you find yourself in ,rather than be subconciesly biased and unable to see that opening...for a kick possibly.

Kicking works..its proven before our eyes to see on youtube or wherever,against the best and even best grapplers on occasion.
Its just that TKD kicking hasnt been proven in that way.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#340713 - 05/15/07 06:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
srvblues Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Argentina
This is Steven Elliot (ITF TKD) in Cage Rage Contenders 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFYLA-SX_s

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#340714 - 05/15/07 11:05 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Example: George St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes

Good grappler against a good kicker and in this one incident the kicker won.





Thing is, that "kicker" is also an excellent GRAPPLER. Lets not forget that. As much as we can credit his kicking, it's his grappling ability that enables it.

And he is also world class. As far as kicking goes, that matters greatly.


-John

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#340715 - 05/15/07 11:28 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
jc4199 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 362
Loc: Pevely, MO U.S.A
Our Coach puts it like this Karate or TKD kicks are like a big hammer. MT kick is like a wrecking ball. Both will knock down a house but one has a bigger margin of error.
_________________________
Jason
Defeat never comes to any man until he admits it.

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#340716 - 05/16/07 05:44 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Thing is, that "kicker" is also an excellent GRAPPLER. Lets not forget that. As much as we can credit his kicking, it's his grappling ability that enables it.





But no-one was arguing that kickers with little grappling ability could beat good grapplers. What I think is important, is that kicking can make up part of that mix which makes a great fighter. Just as, I think sending in a wrestler with no experience in boxing, MT etc. would get his butt handed to him by a better rounded fighter. In mma, it pays to be well rounded, because someone is always going to be a better wrestler, or a better striker, than you.

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#340717 - 05/16/07 05:58 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I realize that. My point wasn't that either. My point has been more about the limitations of kicking overall within SD situations, not MMA as was the case between Hughes and GSP.


-John

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