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#340688 - 05/11/07 01:10 AM NHB lacks TKD
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
This is a discussion regarding the lack of kicks used in No Hold Bar matches; from the UFC, Pride, Bushido, all the way to King of the Ring. Taekwondo kicks are not being utilized to their fullest potential. The kick boxers/stand-up fighters that employ kicks from taekwondo's arsenal are far and few.

One kick in particular I wanted to start out with is the skip side kick or hop side kick. you see a lot of plain lead leg side kicks and sloppy step through side kicks but you never see any quick skip side kicks.

Now for those of you who do not know what a skip kick is, it requires that you do a small hop forward prior to kicking, the skip or hop is used to close the distance between you and you target. There are many fighters who use skip roundhouse either high or low, even the wrestlers do ugly skip roundhouses, but the side kick requires slightly more skill.

A skip side kick has the power to break ribs, smash the nose and if done with full power it can end the fight. Another kick which is hardly used and when done so it is executed telegraphed that it rarely lands. In fact only a few fighters like Mike Swick and George St. Peire are skilled enough to use it well. This would be the back kick, or spinning back kick for most of you karate guys. Well gotta go, lots more to discuss...

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#340689 - 05/11/07 02:27 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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I understand the kick you describe, I am TKD too. However for many they are not coming from backgrounds like TKD and for them to use these types of kicks they would telegraphic too easily for another fighter to move out of the way and counter it. Heck I'm sure like me you train to counter this kick as well ... shoot backwards but preferably to the side and counter with a kick or punch or combination of techniques. A missed kick like this would leave the person open to much worse under MMA rules.

The spinning back kick is awesome especially in the hands of somebody that understands it like GSP or David Loiseau or Ivan Salaverry, all with TKD or Karate backgrounds. However another kick that can leave you exposed and why it is used sparingly.

I think that you will find is that many of the people coming into MMA are not coming from traditional backgrounds such as TKD and the reason why kicks like this are not used much. I however was pleasantly surprised 3 weeks ago when my own Instructor competed for the MFC. At least 2 others on the card were from TKD backgrounds with one coming from a Militich school in Fort McMurray, AB. Though some kicks were used, it is more punching and clinching and takedowns that occurred as that seems to be the basis of this sport. Lots of knees and some elbows, a few high kicks, some low kicks but again mostly punches.

Just going from my Instructor's frame of mind, or what I believe, you find your distance with your hands. Knowing your distance kicks may present themself and that is when you take them but your are more likely to use your hands especially when no resistance presents itself. And for him his opponent knowing he was from a TKD background fully expected him to kick and his idea was to shoot in and catch the kick and so had his hands not in front of his face to protect himself but out to the sides. My Instructor jumped on this opportunity throwing the jab and then the power hand dropping the guy to the ground where in desperation he grabbed for the ankle thus having my Instructor to sprawl with his free leg. Then after deliver several hammer fists open a cut, his opponent let go of the ankle to protect his face only then to have my Instructor move to the side, use the friction grip, roll on to his back while pulling his opponent's back to his chest and then choking him out with the RNC ... all in 45 seconds.

The thing is, you do what presents itself. Fighters knowing you come from a certain background may be scouted a head of time and the fighter will change their fight to how the other fights. Perhaps if my Instructor was striker his hands would have been protecting his face leaving his legs open for kicks. If my Instructor was just a grappler/wrestler then his opponent would have been ready for the clinch up or shoot.

What I do see in MMA is yes, kicks are not used that much. The hands move faster and provide less chance of being unbalanced. I did however see a few guys that did do high kicks land on their butts which can't be good. It comes down to those that can kick will kick when the time is right ... much like GSP does. Those who punch will strike more. Those who grapple/wrestle will do that more. It all stems from their background and those that don't train kicking or at one time did not train full time kicking probably are less likely to do it.

And lets be honest, TKD is not a top sport the world looks to for MMA and probably the opposite. Most MMA guys and the world for that matter look down on TKD though it has many valuable techniques. If I had to start over and was purely going to do MMA I would probably stick with BJJ and boxing first and foremost. I'd sooner or later pick up a kicking art but I'm not sure at that time it would have been TKD, however knowing what TKD is now I certainly would go to the source of the best kicks around ... and that is TKD.
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#340690 - 05/11/07 05:45 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
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I think another thing is the necessity of precision with some kicks. A MT roundhouse or shin kick, for example, allows the shin to be used if the foot doesn't strike. Many TKD kicks rely on the foot, and often a particular part of the foot for striking, so it is necessary to be precise for the best result.

With this in mind, attempting these kind of kicks against, for example, a wrestler who is trained to spot an opening and jam or shoot in, is very risky.

If we consider in TKD training we are trained to jam in and deliver a counter pnch or kick we can imagine the problems when a wrestler jams in and uses his whole body to bring us down... ouch.

If we don't get full precision it is possible even a slight movement by the opponent can minimalise or reduce the efficacy of the kick and leave us open to their base desires!
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#340691 - 05/11/07 06:19 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
JKogas Offline
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It's been already mentioned, BUT...

The reason on the Thai style round kicks are used is because those are the ones less risky. Everything else, especially kicks using the FEET as a striking surface, are simply not going to work as effectively, particularly when takedowns are allowed. You'd have seen them in MMA BY NOW if this wasn't the case.

Kicking in MMA takes an incredible amount of skill to do correctly and not get taken down. This means that you're going to have to throw those kicks in combination with good punching. That's going to be hard to do while using the feet as a striking surface. Kicking with the shin leaves you much closer to your opponent and able to throw that sort of kick after a combination of punching, from which you can "hide" the kick behind. Kicking with the feet requires more distance and is more clearly telegraphed.

While kicks can be powerful, kicking itself is often the weakest strategy. How many times have we seen guys attempt to kick and only get taken down for their efforts? Plus, many kicks tend to work primarily against bad, tired or injured fighters. For self-defense purposes, I'd say leave them in the dojo. And kicks while using the FEET? Forget about it.

Just my opinion.



-John

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#340692 - 05/11/07 10:31 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I disagree on much that has been said, especially about using kicks for self defense. Lets focus our observations strictly to the UFC since now so many have had a chance to view it and it's fighters.

I personally rarely see someone taken down after throwing a kick. This is why I brought up this subject, also because I am WTF TKD and trained to counter my attacks off of a kick, I see a lot of uskilled kickers in the UFC, just about every round kick is telgraphed and can be countered if the fighters had the right kind of trainnig. Kicing in the UFC and countering off kicks is an untapped resource. Fighters allow there opponenets to throw giant hay maker round kicks to the head and even allow them to do a complete 360 spin afterwards. In my style of TKD that is just totally unacceptable especially in self defense, and I would think these "pro" fighters would immediatly capitalize on a mistake like that. however, I feel it is because of the lack of training in countering kicks. Which is another tool in TKD that is learned.

I mentioned two kicks. The skip side kick and the back kick. Both kicks in WTF TKD use the heel as the striking surface, both of those kicks are linear kicks, if done correctoly there is no telegraph whatsoever.

Dereck while true that many MMA fighters do not come from a traditional MA background that only adds to my point of why TKD kicks are an untapped resource.

And as far as thai kicking. I see more low roundhouses done with the instep rather than the shin. I watch Muay Thai fights as often as I can and I see those bad boys using the shins, but watch a UFc even and what you see are light round kicks due to the fact that these fighters don't seem to condition their shins like thai fighters do. An example can be GSp's last match against Matt Hughes. He must have thrown 10 low round kicks to Matt thigh or shin. All of his kicks were done using his instep. Until he finally went high and caught Hughes with a skip roundhouse. Which is a kick often used, but the skip side kick is not.

Dereck good mentino on David "the Crow" L, and Ivan Salsberry. I would have mentioned them but I didn't know how to spell their names. Those guys are very impressive. They switch from stand up to to ground, perfect examples.

I am not seeing a lot of take downs being down after kicks, what I see is a lot of telegraphed kicks either being blocked or the fighters backing up. Two things that are abad idea versus the skip side and back kick. For now I'm just presenting these two kicks.

Jkogas, you are correct sir, a lot of kicks are effective against tired opponents. To reasons why I think they are rarely used to knock people out with at that point. 1. The stand up fighter is also tired and cannot waist energy on a kick. 2. The stand up fighter is not tired however has very little knowledge on kicks un order to use it to finish the fight.
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#340693 - 05/11/07 10:43 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Have a look at this chap- Zelg Galesic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e60jtv-Y7fg highlight reel showing his TKD background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT3mthJguOo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cmukFo1Tdc&mode=related&search=
A couple of wins on Cage Rage, the British UFC, he currently holds the middleweight title.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24oLBGTgCy8&mode=related&search=
And to show I'm always balanced here is a loss in his debut in Pride. A very close match though, unlike his wins, where he was absolutely dominant.


A few things to notice:

It is true that galesic rarely uses his feet- which is to be expected, as John says, the shin provides a much more powerful striking area, and ensures you are in range, so that if your opponent moves back you will still catch him with the foot.

Galesic's striking skills are obviously brilliant, and you are right John it does take a lot of skill to be that good. However, it takes about the same amount of skill to be a great wrestler, because everybody else is going to be a good wrestler. Galesic is an example of using striking skill to dominate, rather than wrestling skill.

Look at how Galesic exploits the rules of Cage Rage- unless he knows he can finish the fight on the ground, he tries to stand up again when on the top. Just like a wrestler wants to keep a guy on his back, Galesic wants keep his man on his feet. And when his man stays down, Galesic uses his great kicks and punches to keep his man down. Did you see those axe kicks on the ground? That was a great strategy and seemed to work well, particularly in the pride fight, where he managed to get a pretty dominant position after using it.

Quote:


While kicks can be powerful, kicking itself is often the weakest strategy. How many times have we seen guys attempt to kick and only get taken down for their efforts? Plus, many kicks tend to work primarily against bad, tired or injured fighters.




Well, anyone who fights for more than a minute in a MMA ring is going to be tired. Not only that, but kicks are extremely useful against fighters who have just been caught by a punch. That is why you throw kicks in combination. Also, I think these videos showed that even against decent competition(granted not the world's finest) kciks can be used effectively as part of a winning strategy.

I think John, you are under the misapprehension, that a kicker in a MMA ring will, the moment the bell sounds, try and land his best kick. That's like trying to get a standing submission- it's nearly impossible. Instead you have to get your opponent into a position where that strategy is efective. For submissions, the ground is obviously where you want to be, and in a dominant position. For a kick, you need your opponent on the back foot, recovering from another strike, or reacting to a punching combination. In this context, kicking can be very effective.

Is kicking a NECESSARY part of mma? No. But are submissions a necessary part of mma? Again no. Ground and pound has shown us that Submissions are not always necessary for a fighter in order to win matches. Look at it like this- you are always going to need some striking and grappling skills, but some aspects of those skill sets are optional. Kicking is one of those, and it can indeed be very effective if used coreectly.

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#340694 - 05/11/07 01:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
Hello, first time poster here

IMHO, TKD's kicks (especially WTF style) is still kinda new and evolving compare to other martial arts. I think there is a higher tendency for people to stick to well established (widely-accepted, or popular) techniques, like boxing, MT Kick-boxing, or tactics have frequently won repeatly in the past.

Although there are people who experiment with "new" or less-popular techniques, they also need to accept the risk for getting injuries or losing the fights in order to gain insight of how to improve those techinques. However, how many people are willing to pay the risk? And how many people have the ability to gather what their experiment, and refine/improve that technique? It takes a lot of effort, wisdom and intelligence in order to accomplish it.

Since TKD is still evolving, in my opinion TKD's kicks have a lot of potential.


Edited by TroTro (05/11/07 01:53 PM)

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#340695 - 05/11/07 03:21 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
TroTro, welcome to the forums, nice to have you posting.
Quote:


Although there are people who experiment with "new" or less-popular techniques, they also need to accept the risk for getting injuries or losing the fights in order to gain insight of how to improve those techinques. However, how many people are willing to pay the risk?




I think there is a very easy way to experiment wth new techniques- sparring in a NHB environment, what some would call training "alive." It is quite possible to train new techniques and strategies before getting into the MMA ring.

John's argument about there not being any good kickers at the top of mma therefore kicks are not effective in a mma environment, is a strong one. However, I have tried to show that there are indeed some up and coming fighters who are using kicks to good effect, hence my spotlight on Galesic. MMA is an evolving sport, and many martial arts are well behind the game in erms of effective training. When TKD schools, at least those that are not devoted to olympic sparring, begin to train in the same way, we may well see kicks being used far better in MMA, and more importantly, we may see kicks "integrated" into MMA, although I believe it will still be a case of take it or leave it, just as I think submissions are currently.

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#340696 - 05/11/07 04:45 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Looking at it tacticaly not many kicks from TKD will work enough times to warrent their inclusion.In a fight anything can happen and if the oppurtunity arrises then anything can be done in that split second.
Yet there are things being done that work against the best fighters in the world.Things that happen often and work and so these are the things that people will train if they want to beat the best.

Looking more at the skip side kick,I dont think it would work well because of the risk of takedowns.Not only after kicking but at any time.The stance you need to take for a NHB fight is more square than for a stand up fight so the lead leg would not be in a good position to pop the kick out....the front leg isnt that further forward than the back leg...not compared to a TKD stance which is more side on some fighters even virtualy side on....and if the kick is learnt whilst in a side on stance its asking lots to do the same kick well from a more square stance.It would take too long fortheleg to reach the target and your giving the opponent your hips...and what about recovery if you miss or he steps back? It wouldbe too vunerable.

A front kick with more hip that turns to a side at the end might be the closest thing to a side kick worth doing in an NHB fight.(more to push them away than strike)

Same for the other kicks.The start position is important.The TKD stance and lack of worry for takedowns makes it ok to use lots of hip rotation and knee chambers and snaps yet for NHB its not good.The kicks become more awkward to do that way because of the stance needed and the lack of time available.Also the body mechanics change and the way to gain power changes.

A thing with martial arts I find is there is lots we WANT to be able to use andfor it to work...its the big question...what works?Yet for NHB or real world it has to be what actualy, truthfully works that is prefered.
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#340697 - 05/11/07 05:27 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Supremor -

Quote:

MMA is an evolving sport, and many martial arts are well behind the game in erms of effective training. When TKD schools, at least those that are not devoted to olympic sparring, begin to train in the same way, we may well see kicks being used far better in MMA, and more importantly, we may see kicks "integrated" into MMA, although I believe it will still be a case of take it or leave it, just as I think submissions are currently.




At the risk of invoking JKogas' wrath, I agree with Supremor. Seeing the quantum leap in kicking talent in the UFC since 1993, I think there will be more (and better) kickers as the sport grows.
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#340698 - 05/11/07 05:34 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Tek,

the point about an mT kick isn't so much about whether those thrown landed with the instep but whether, if the target had moved, the kick would have been as efficient when the shin landed. As such, I'd suggest that this is the advantage over many TKD kicks.

I remember Bill wallace saying that when kick-boxing first started everyone was scared of these high power kicks but then they found it only took a slight deflection or movement to defuse a lot of the power from them. So, the point is that if you use a kick which needs a precise application it might not be as effective as you'd wish and that would be a problem in an MMA match.

As I said, in WTF TKD we get taught about jamming in and blocking, but we are not doing it with the thought of the opponent not stopping when they jam in. I mean, I can jam in and deliver a backfist or a kick but you wouldn't expect me to bulldoze you.

When I trained in Finland in 1994 (just when UFC began) the WTF club in Helsinki used to practice defence against wrestlers because wrestling has always been a big sport in northern Europe. Therefore you were more likely to find yourself fighting a wrestler in the street. Low kicks and evasion were the order of the day.

I'm not saying that TKD kicks can't be used, I think it is people are more wary of using them. Even guys like Mark Weir, who certainly can use them, tend to limit them when in full MMA.
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#340699 - 05/11/07 05:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
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I would also have to agree .... sorry John.

I think like anything, if you come from a kicking background and are proficient at it then you will be able to use it more effectively such as Cro Cop or GSP. This doesn't mean you rely on this and this alone as if you are in MMA then you know you had better be well rounded and be able to use your hands, sprawl, clinch, knee, elbow, grapple/wrestle and ground'n pound. However a person that comes from a kicking background will be more skilled then somebody that isn't or just kicks to fill in holes. The same thing can be said out grappling, striking, etc. If you come from any background you are more then likely going to be better at that one skill then the rest but then it is up to you to become more proficient in the others otherwise you leave yourself open. A good kicker is just that, and will be fast and will be able to utilize kicks more efficiently. He will also know when and when not to use them, much like the GSP vs. Matt Hughes fight.

But again, at this moment many are not coming from kicking backgrounds so for them to be proficient enough at them is out of the question. I'm coming on 5 years and still don't believe I'm anywhere near sufficient. I have basics with some being better then others but that's it. For some of these guys they have less MMA years in then myself in TKD/BJJ so for them to be able to use kicking at a high understanding and utilization, it just isn't going to happen. And with people now training MMA specifically they have bypassed any traditional kicking martial art and are getting rounded skills but not necessarily specific training in one area to make them better at it.

I have seen a rise in some fighter coming from kicking backgrounds especially in the smaller venues which is encouraging. Perhaps now that MMA is getting bigger and bigger the sport itself will have many others coming into it that have TMA and MMA skills.
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#340700 - 05/11/07 06:12 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

I Lets focus our observations strictly to the UFC since now so many have had a chance to view it and it's fightersÖ

ÖI personally rarely see someone taken down after throwing a kick.





Iíve seen it a lot in different venues. Having one leg to stand on doesnít leave one with a very solid base. It can be boiled down to basic physics.

As pertains to the UFC specifically, all one needs to do is study the Mark Hominick - Jorge Gurgel fight.

Who was Hominick except for a well respected kick boxer? He was fighting a well known and respected grappler. Can you guess what he decided NOT to do in his fight? If you said kicking, you guessed right. He didnít kick in his fight and in fact, he back peddled through most of it. Why? He didnít want to get taken down. Smart man. He ended up winning that fight because he chose not to kick or, engage at all. His strategy to stay back and ďpot-shotĒ Gurgel was the key to his victory. A victory that might not have happened had he gone in with more gusto and, kicked.

A reason why you donít see many people taken down from throwing a kick is because the kicks are set up with punching better. They are quicker and low to the leg, using the Thai style approach of using the shin (and instep as you have alluded to). They are also used primary as a strategy against people who are either OTHER stand-up fighters themselves (those who demonstrate a desire to stay upright) or against those who are already tired and injured.

In other words, most of the time people chose to keep their feet on the ground and trade punching, setting up their kicks carefully and again, vs. others who demonstrate a willingness to keep a fight standing. I canít buy the notion that its easy to keep a fight standing when youíre flinging one leg of your base out away from you, particularly when one's opponent is adept at taking people down.

Even Chuck Liddell doesnít throw kicks that much. The guy is known for his hands. The reason? He doesnít want to get taken down and is pretty damned good at avoiding that. One big reason could be attributed to his use of his hands and his willingness to keep his feet beneath him.


Quote:


I see a lot of uskilled kickers in the UFC, just about every round kick is telgraphed and can be countered if the fighters had the right kind of trainnig. Kicing in the UFC and countering off kicks is an untapped resource. Fighters allow there opponenets to throw giant hay maker round kicks to the head and even allow them to do a complete 360 spin afterwards. In my style of TKD that is just totally unacceptable especially in self defense, and I would think these "pro" fighters would immediatly capitalize on a mistake like that. however, I feel it is because of the lack of training in countering kicks. Which is another tool in TKD that is learned.





Obviously TKD is not MMA. Itís a completely different animal. That will change the dynamics of things dramatically.

However all the UFC needs is someone to show folks how itís done. That sure hasnít been Crocop so far (who was incidentally KOíd by a kick, although that goes back to my earlier statement about kicks working better against other kickers).

I believe there exists somewhere, a record of how many fights were won by punching, kicking, ground and pound etc. It would be interesting to see those stats. I think youíd see clearly that punching out matches kicking per KO far and away. There is a reason for this. If Iím wrong, Iíll eat my words. But I doubt I am. Its fairly easy to see.


Quote:


I mentioned two kicks. The skip side kick and the back kick. Both kicks in WTF TKD use the heel as the striking surface, both of those kicks are linear kicks, if done correctoly there is no telegraph whatsoever.

Dereck while true that many MMA fighters do not come from a traditional MA background that only adds to my point of why TKD kicks are an untapped resource.






Interesting point you make. Iíd argue this; considering just how many TKD practitioners that there ARE in this freakiní world, why hasnít anyone been able to capitalize on such an ďuntappedĒ resource? The UFC is open to anyone who has proven his ability to fight. MMA (in THIS country alone) is already 14 years old. Thatís been plenty of time. In fact, I believe quite a few guys in the past were of traditional backgrounds. They didnít win much. Those that did were eventually beaten by grapplers.

Kicking of the sort that TKD boys like to do would change DRAMATICALLY if takedowns and clinching were allowed in training as done within wrestling and BJJ. Itís a different animal altogether that dictates what you can and canít get away with.


Quote:


And as far as thai kicking. I see more low roundhouses done with the instep rather than the shin. I watch Muay Thai fights as often as I can and I see those bad boys using the shins, but watch a UFc even and what you see are light round kicks due to the fact that these fighters don't seem to condition their shins like thai fighters do.





That is because of how risky kicking is in MMA. Kicking has to be performed SO much quicker with much less commitment, which is part of the point that Iím making to begin with. When you can be taken down because of the tactics that you choose, it will change the way you approach kicking. Thatís why those kicks are so light and non-committal. They HAVE to be, otherwise the kicker is going to be on his back fighting for the rest of the round. Not good if youíre a kick boxer first.


Quote:


An example can be GSp's last match against Matt Hughes. He must have thrown 10 low round kicks to Matt thigh or shin. All of his kicks were done using his instep. Until he finally went high and caught Hughes with a skip roundhouse. Which is a kick often used, but the skip side kick is not.




Then he went and fought Serra and was dropped by a punch.

I didnít see the Hughes/GSP fight so I canít fully comment on that. I will try and catch it on youtube when I can.

Though my opinion on side kicks is that they leave you with your hips in a bad position., making it much more difficult to defend the clinch and level changes in that manner. That isnít to say that they canít be done and done well within MMA, and perhaps they will. They just havenít been effective so far and arenít for a reason. You have to sprawl!


Quote:


I am not seeing a lot of take downs being down after kicks, what I see is a lot of telegraphed kicks either being blocked or the fighters backing up.





Perhaps this is due to the fact that most of the kicks youíre seeing are ďhiddenĒ behind punching, very quick, and non-committal in the way I mentioned previously? Perhaps itís also because these kicks are being used against other, more ďstand-upĒ oriented fighters and not grapplers? Perhaps also because when theyíre thrown, most fighters are either tired or injured? I donít know, but Iíd say those factors weigh heavily into the equation and have to be considered.



Quote:


Two things that are a bad idea versus the skip side and back kick. For now I'm just presenting these two kicks.




Again, with all of these TKD practitioners (perhaps the worlds most practiced style?), youíd think weíd have seen this by now? Maybe?


Quote:

Jkogas, you are correct sir, a lot of kicks are effective against tired opponents. To reasons why I think they are rarely used to knock people out with at that point. 1. The stand up fighter is also tired and cannot waist energy on a kick. 2. The stand up fighter is not tired however has very little knowledge on kicks un order to use it to finish the fight.





To rebut your points Iíd say:

1. Thatís when Iíve seen most kicks do their damage (when a fighter is tired)

2. Probably. It might also be because he doesnít want to get taken down. He may be ahead at that point and realizes the difference between a win and a loss could be a simple takedown. Those tend to score big points.

Who knows? But it IS an interesting debate.


-John

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#340701 - 05/12/07 07:00 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Gentlemen

This is not exatly the type of discussion I intended for. While I see most agree that kicking has it's place in MMA, my point was to demonstrate how it is under utilize and how certain kicks from taekwondo can enhance the pro mma fighter.

This discussion was meant more for those who are particularly from a TKD background, because they have more knowledge of the kicks, while certainly it is good to have a fresh perspective by those with different backgrounds in MMA, BJJ, and other striking arts. I was hoping we could stick to the kicks that I had mentioned.

The two kicks I proposed are certainly very useful. So useful that they could most likely be found in almost all styles of striking arts. The only reason why I brought it up in this forum was because they may not be used to such an extent as taekwondo emphasizes.

Later on perhaps we can discuss other kicks but for now, I propose we discuss why or why not the skip side kick/hop side kick and back kick/spinning back can or cannot, should or should not be part of a pro mma fighters arsenal.


_________________________
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#340702 - 05/12/07 08:45 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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To put it simply then,no the mentioned kicks do not work well for NHB fighting.Ive tried to incorporate them as I have a TKD background.The chambering,the stance you would be in to handle takedowns or shooting yourself,the full hip rotation,the recovery,all these things make it harder for the kicks to work.
They may work against the average joe or even average NHB guy yet against the best,which is what we should be training for because you never know who you might meet, it wont cut it.

This is why NHB is an art in itself.Even the Muay Thai kick has to be adapted.You cant afford to be stepping across,you cant afford to spin if you miss,you cant afford to have your hips forward like in a Muay Thai stance.All these changes make the kicks not TKD,not Muay Thai but NHB kicks...a newer evolved kick...thats the future its where its going.
Is the same for everything...punching purely for NHB..not boxing anymore...grappling for NHB ..not for a wrestling match.Yea,it may work against lots,yet t o be the best these things counnt,these little details.Its the way forward.
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#340703 - 05/12/07 01:17 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:



Later on perhaps we can discuss other kicks but for now, I propose we discuss why or why not the skip side kick/hop side kick and back kick/spinning back can or cannot, should or should not be part of a pro mma fighters arsenal.




OK Tek, I'll start with the skip side kick. I think this kick is useless in a MMA context. It is very high risk, it is pretty easy to avoid, with circular movement, or even just sprinting backwards. Not only that, but the position it is thrown from is a very side-on stance, allowing an easy takedown. I saw it done once on a "Bodog" fight, and let me tell you, the kicker came off worse! It wasn't that there was much wrong with the technique, it was just that the opponent evaded and took the guy down.

Now the back kick. Absolutely an effective kick, and has already been very well used by GSP and Cung Le. It is less high risk, because it is faster, and is very difficult to evaded to the kicker's disadvantage. It is also a very powerful kick, and is almost impossible to grab if done correctly. As I said, the kick's already being used, and I expect it will continue to appear every now and then among the better kickers in the MMA world.

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#340704 - 05/12/07 05:18 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
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Matxtx wrote
Quote:


They may work against the average joe or even average NHB guy yet against the best,which is what we should be training for because you never know who you might meet, it wont cut it.




Great point and one Iíve argued for years. I donít judge kickboxing by looking at the YMCA trained guys. I donít judge BJJ by looking at the blue belts. I donít judge wrestling by looking at the local high school talent. I look at the upper echelon guys.

You may be able to make things work against the inexperienced but, that does nothing but promote false confidence. Trying to kick a competent wrestler, especially if the kicker isnít ďworld classĒ (and how many of us are?) is just asking to be dropped hard. My advice would be to keep your feet on the ground. But thatís just me. I can tell you for SURE that Iím not gonna kick, lol! Iíve wrestled with too many good guys. I wonít make the mistake of weakening MY base.


Supremor wrote
Quote:


Now the back kick. Absolutely an effective kick, and has already been very well used by GSP and Cung Le. It is less high risk, because it is faster, and is very difficult to evaded to the kicker's disadvantage. It is also a very powerful kick, and is almost impossible to grab if done correctly. As I said, the kick's already being used, and I expect it will continue to appear every now and then among the better kickers in the MMA world.





I agree with this. Itís been shown to be pretty effective. However Iíd argue that only the best kickers are able to get away with it, especially against other upper echelon fighters. Many of MY points are in regard to self-defense. Lets take a guy who ISNíT a world class athlete and canít train for 6 to 8 hours a day. Kicking takes time to master. It also takes time to maintain. How much time in a day (along with everything else that you have to train) does one really have for martial arts?

If weíre talking about your typical working adult wanting to learn self-defense, why on EARTH would I start about teaching him or her to kick? As I see it, out of a hundred people, 10 to 15% of them may be able to develop their kicking to a reasonable degree.

What I DO see however is that people tend to pick up their hands much quicker (more coordinated through constant use) as well as the clinch; two things indispensable for self-defense. Thus that is what I focus on with people for about the first two years that they train with me. Kicking will NOT come into the picture until at least the two year mark, if then. It has been CLEARLY demonstrated by many, that you do not have to be a kicker, or, kick at ALL (think, Randy Couture) to be a world class fighter. Considering that self-defense is the primary objective for most folks, kicking isnít even needed at all. That cannot be said about the use of oneís hands or the clinch. Those items MUST be in place.

Thus in the spirit of discarding the unessential, guess what gets discarded (at least as far as Iím concerned)?


-John

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#340705 - 05/12/07 06:04 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
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And one more.....

From Supremor
Quote:


Galesic's striking skills are obviously brilliant, and you are right John it does take a lot of skill to be that good. However, it takes about the same amount of skill to be a great wrestler, because everybody else is going to be a good wrestler. Galesic is an example of using striking skill to dominate, rather than wrestling skill.




Freddie, I hope this is the part of the post you wanted me to respond to. If not, please point it out and I will address it.

My opinion regarding this is; wrestling is a much more important skill for fighting and self-defense than is kicking. The time however has to be put into one area to get the most out of it. Thus if I had people interested in self-defense primarily (which is why many of us do this stuff), I would develop their hands and their wrestling ability, particularly more of a Greco-Roman, judo and BJJ game. Later on the kicking aspect can be added if the individual has a decent enough aptitude/talent for such a thing.

To further answer your question using another angle, lets say I had two equally skilled fighters. A pure kicker and a pure, wrestler, both are competent. They donít cross-train. If I had them fight ten times, I would put my money on the wrestler to win 8 or 9 of them.


Quote:


What's your take on submissions for use in grappling in MMA events? I've only been doing judo for a short while, however, I often feel that when I'm in someone's guard, I don't mind that much.




That would mean that YOU got the takedown and landed on top. It thus means that you were the better wrestler. You see, I look at the guard from a purely defensive point of view (while having it's own offensive potential). I WILL fight from there but Iím VERY active and look to attack aggressively and not simply lie back and await punishment. I will look to set up my own strikes, work for submissions and (more importantly), get out and back to my feet as quickly as possible, in hopes that I will win the next takedown and end up in a better, TOP position.

Again, I use the guard because I ended up on my back. Depending on whose guard youíve landed in, it can be relatively safe or extremely dangerous. Quite honestly, I donít see many people playing guard the way that I believe it ought to be played. But what the hell do I knowÖ..



Quote:


Indeed, I'd happily stay in their guard all match, because I can land a few strikes without fear of getting swept, and I'm pretty safe from them. However, the necessity to finish with a submission in my judo newaza means that just getting the top position and staying there isn't good enough. Just wanted to know that your thoughts were on the subject- are submissions really necessary for a mma competitor?





First, I think that most people suck from the guard. It takes a LOT of work and time to get really good at developing a guard thatís worth a crap if you ask me. Most people donít either put enough time into or, just havenít been coached effectively.

In terms of submissions, I think they are secondary to position. And should be. Thus in MMA its easier to obtain a position than to get a submission. However the gloves make that much more difficult. And truthfully, there arenít a lot of submissions to get. Chokes. A straight arm lock. A bent arm lock. Couple of leg submissions that are high risk. Really not a whole lot of things. But the gloves make it harder to execute them.

Are they needed? Well, a submission would leave no doubt as to the victor! You wouldnít leave a decision up to judges. I think they are very necessary if trained correctly within the MMA environment.



Cheers!


-John

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#340706 - 05/13/07 05:20 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
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Thanks John, as always a very interesting and well argued post.

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#340707 - 05/14/07 09:44 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
TroTro Offline
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Please correct me if I am wrong. In my opinion, grappling and kicking are opposite: a grappler wants to get in close distance, but a kicker wants to keep the opponent away from him (at kicking range).

There is a Chinese quote describing the range of attack like:

One inch longer, one inch more powerful; Once inch shorter, one inch more dangerous.

I think it is like long spear vs. dragger, or kicking vs. grappling.

If the grappler catches kicker's leg, I think it is either the grappler is very good for getting close range, or the kicker makes a mistake for letting the grappler get close. On the other hand, a good kicker should kick at a distance where the opponent is unable to reach the kicker.

Maybe the hop-step roundhouse kick or hop-step sidekick is risky because the kicker moves closer to the opponent. A powerful spinning backkick or rear leg roundhouse can move the opponent away if it is landed, blocked or evaded. Compare to the rotation-power in spinning kicks or rear leg roundhouse kicks, the hop-step version is more difficult to generate the same kind of impact. Imagine the kicker throw a hop-step roundhouse kick at opponent and the opponent blocked the kick and not moved. The kicker is now closer to the opponent, which is favorable towards punch or grappling, if distance is close enough.

Maybe a hop-step kick charge in and then move out of range, or moving in and switch to punching or grappling.


Edited by TroTro (05/14/07 09:46 PM)

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#340708 - 05/15/07 06:21 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


If the grappler catches kicker's leg, I think it is either the grappler is very good for getting close range, or the kicker makes a mistake for letting the grappler get close. On the other hand, a good kicker should kick at a distance where the opponent is unable to reach the kicker.




I don't quite understand this Trotro. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if you are in range to hit someone with a kick, then you are in range to have it caught. So in order to kick effectively, the kicker must accept the risk of a kick being caught.

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#340709 - 05/15/07 07:13 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if you are in range to hit someone with a kick, then you are in range to have it caught. So in order to kick effectively, the kicker must accept the risk of a kick being caught.





Exactly! Couldn't have said it better. If you can touch your opponent anywhere with any part of your body (ie, the feet), then he can touch YOU as well.

If you are in range to "touch" a grappler, even with just your big toe, you're in his range. If he's good, he can close that distance in a blink of the eye (think Kevin Randleman here).

Would you want to risk fighting off your back? If so, have a good guard folks. That is why if you are kicker and are NOT also training Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you might want to think that there could be something wrong with you. Just my opinion.


-John

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#340710 - 05/15/07 10:22 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TroTro Offline
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Quote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if you are in range to hit someone with a kick, then you are in range to have it caught. So in order to kick effectively, the kicker must accept the risk of a kick being caught.




I agree with you. A kick (or any technique) has a chance to succeed and a chance to fail. We can also apply it to punches too: If you are in range to hit someone with a punch, then you are in range to have it caught/trapped. So in order to punch effectively, the puncher must accept the risk of an arm being caught/trapped.

But I think just because a kick has a chance of being caught, that does not mean kicks will fail everytime.

Quote:


Exactly! Couldn't have said it better. If you can touch your opponent anywhere with any part of your body (ie, the feet), then he can touch YOU as well.

If you are in range to "touch" a grappler, even with just your big toe, you're in his range. If he's good, he can close that distance in a blink of the eye (think Kevin Randleman here).

Would you want to risk fighting off your back? If so, have a good guard folks. That is why if you are kicker and are NOT also training Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you might want to think that there could be something wrong with you. Just my opinion.

-John




What if the kick does not "touch" the grappler? (like Feint, or feint and follow up with combination hand strikes or kicks?)

If the grappler is "good", then yes, I agree with you. However, it depends on who is grappling, and who is kicking. A person has grappling skill does not mean that he is immune to all kicks everytime in every situations.

If the opponent knows the kick is coming, then the kick most likely will fail. For example, if the kicker frequently use the same kick, by all means, catch the leg and punish the kicker

If you are going to kick someone, would to let him know where/when/how you are going to kick him? For kicking, we should consider:
-- Timing.
-- Distance.
-- Direction/angle/target.
The three things above can be vary and a kicker would try to hide his intention as well. Besides kicking, the kicker has an opinion NOT to kick and use something else. IMHO, it is very situational.

If the kick is weak (either the kicker is weak physically, or mechanic of that kick is weak), the opponent may take the hit (if he is strong enough) and return the kicker a favor (grappling, takedown, punch, kick, knee, elbow, etc).

If the kicks are fast and powerful, with variety of timing, distance and direction/angle/target, plus the kicker is trying to hide the intention of his kicks. Instead of thinking kick as one kick at a time, try to think in terms of combinations: like hand + foot attacks, multiple kicks, footwork + feint/kicks...

To be honest, NHB lacks TKD.


Edited by TroTro (05/15/07 10:57 AM)

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#340711 - 05/15/07 01:16 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

If the grappler is "good", then yes, I agree with you. However, it depends on who is grappling, and who is kicking. A person has grappling skill does not mean that he is immune to all kicks everytime in every situations.




Example: George St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes

Good grappler against a good kicker and in this one incident the kicker won.
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#340712 - 05/15/07 01:47 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
matxtx Offline
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To twist it,maybe TKD lacks NHB.lol

As a fighter ,in my opinion,a big aim should be to be able to hit them when they they dont think you can and without them being able to do anything about it or anything back.Thats a skill.A skill to be aimed for and forever even if I might not get there.Though in aiming for that I will get better.
So thats part of the skill and knowledge of being able to kick...or do anything.
Overall the perfect thing realy would be to be good at it all,kicking ,punching,striking,clinching/head fighting and grappling.
It also means that your mind is just thinking of opportunitys to just finish in any way you find yourself in ,rather than be subconciesly biased and unable to see that opening...for a kick possibly.

Kicking works..its proven before our eyes to see on youtube or wherever,against the best and even best grapplers on occasion.
Its just that TKD kicking hasnt been proven in that way.
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#340713 - 05/15/07 06:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
srvblues Offline
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This is Steven Elliot (ITF TKD) in Cage Rage Contenders 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFYLA-SX_s

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#340714 - 05/15/07 11:05 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


Example: George St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes

Good grappler against a good kicker and in this one incident the kicker won.





Thing is, that "kicker" is also an excellent GRAPPLER. Lets not forget that. As much as we can credit his kicking, it's his grappling ability that enables it.

And he is also world class. As far as kicking goes, that matters greatly.


-John

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#340715 - 05/15/07 11:28 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
jc4199 Offline
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Our Coach puts it like this Karate or TKD kicks are like a big hammer. MT kick is like a wrecking ball. Both will knock down a house but one has a bigger margin of error.
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#340716 - 05/16/07 05:44 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


Thing is, that "kicker" is also an excellent GRAPPLER. Lets not forget that. As much as we can credit his kicking, it's his grappling ability that enables it.





But no-one was arguing that kickers with little grappling ability could beat good grapplers. What I think is important, is that kicking can make up part of that mix which makes a great fighter. Just as, I think sending in a wrestler with no experience in boxing, MT etc. would get his butt handed to him by a better rounded fighter. In mma, it pays to be well rounded, because someone is always going to be a better wrestler, or a better striker, than you.

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#340717 - 05/16/07 05:58 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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I realize that. My point wasn't that either. My point has been more about the limitations of kicking overall within SD situations, not MMA as was the case between Hughes and GSP.


-John

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#340718 - 05/16/07 09:39 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
Supremor Offline
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So, if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that while kicks may work for professional sportsmen in the cage, the time that an average joe has to spend on learning martial arts makes learning kicking a waste of time?

That makes sense to me. It doesn't stop me from liking to kick and thinking I can continue to kick, because I devote a lot more time to martial arts than an average joe. But I can see that if someone has just 3-4 hours a week to learn techinuqes and practice, then those hourse would best be served by some wrestling mixed with a bit of boxing.

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#340719 - 05/16/07 01:53 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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In regards to GSP, he was in TMA for many years before venturing into MMA and why his kicking is done so well. Later grappling, wrestling, boxing and Muay Thai all became a part of his training. With his abilities he certainly has become a world class athlete.

John, if and fact your are in agreement with Supremor's last post, then I would have to also agree. GSP's earlier training is the reason he is proficient at it but the average joe most certainly would not receive as good of benefit for training it part time and hope to have the same results and probably would end with the opposite effect they wanted.

Even being TKD kicker for almost 5 years I would sooner throw hands, clinch and grapple as that is what my strengths are however I would not discount leg kicks but you have to be quick and retract that leg and most certainly I would never throw a leg kick if my opponent is fresher then myself and I'm tired as then my kicks would be easier caught. There is a time and place for kicks for sure.

However while typing this I speculate that a good fighter could make it by on hand skills, clinch, knees, elbow, takedowns and grappling/wrestling skills without ever needing to learn leg kicks. They are not necessarily needed to be a good fighter but they are another element for sure that can be useful. Perhaps leg kicks are much like all of the different chokes/arm bars in grappling. You only need to know the basics but it never hurts to know a few more things. And as you pointed out with grappling vs. a stand up fighter, you might as well be versed in kicking so as to know how to defend from them even if you are not a kicker. Understanding the dynamics of kicking can most certainly improve your ability to nullify them.
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#340720 - 05/16/07 07:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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Here is something I am noticing and want to point it out. I began this thread in order to discuss kicks, I chose this forum because TKD/korean arts are known for having an abundance of kicks compared to most martial arts.

While many of you agree that certain kicks such as leg kicks have their place in MMA, many of you disagreed that TKD kicks or the 2 basic ones I brought up would be useless. And so many agreed with John that a good fighter would not need kicks in a NHB fight. Then it seems that kicks themselves were in jeopardy of being discarded altogether. At this point it seems many of you decided not to disagree with john, but to some how try and squeeze in the usefulness of kicks. As I see it, this happend because john was making so good an argument, that he indirectly had you questioning your and it's usefulness. I mean the reason why I brought up NHB was because it is the closest kind of sparring to actual real combat. And if maneuvers like kicks can be executed there than it is likely they can be used in street fighting as well.

It is unfortunate; I'd had hope to get more responses from the members of this forum regarding kicks. I myself feel that many of the kicks used in any style of TKD can be useful in an NHB, because although it is a close simulation to one on one street fighting, it is still after all a competition with many rules. I also feel that a good kicker can be trained in 2 years.
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#340721 - 05/16/07 08:32 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Merely providing opinions Tek. You're welcome to your own. Some folks will simply differ. I don't like kicks. Takes me away from my general strategy which is PRESSURE! In my opinion, THAT is the single biggest factor in winning fights, sport or otherwise.



-John

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#340722 - 05/16/07 11:00 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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TeK, I agree that many kicks would be usefully in a NHB fight and can be useful on the street; there is no question. However the two kicks you presented I believe would put a person in a bad predicament against a good ground fighter, or even a good fighter with excellent foot work for avoiding.

Our school does TKD and BJJ and we mix it all together at times. I've tried my hand at keeping the stand-up but I'm more a ground guy. Being that, all good kickers I've found can be taken down though at times I've had to eat a few kicks but sometimes the sacrifice is worth it. I put much faith in kicks as I've seen some great kickers with one being my Instructor but I think even after doing TKD for over 20 years I think he would agree that only so many kicks can be used especially if your opponent is skilled and in the environment you are in.

What I was trying to elude earlier is that though kicking is a great tool, you can still get by without using them however you could not get by without striking ability, clinching ability or grappling ability. As you've noticed in MMA, kicks are not used by many which because you are a kicker it eludes you as you can see many instances where they could have; and so have I for that matter. However guys are getting by without them and doing well even against kickers. They are finding timing and distance and are jamming kicks so they are less powerful and taking advantage of the extended appendage and going for takedowns.

I believe every fighter should be versed in kicking, heck anybody doing martial arts should know the basics. But like myself, I probably will only have the basics and never aspire to any greatness in this area whereas with my passion for grappling I stand a better chance of improving in this area. You have to remember, punching comes so much more naturally and everybody can do it however kicking is hard for many, let alone understanding the proper dynamics of a proper kick without hurting themselves in the process or getting actual power on the end of their kicks from turning their hips. And many do not have the flexibility or the time to put into many of the TKD style kicks especially when they know they must improve in so many other areas that they will need such as the grappling and punching.

I think this is a great thread and am thoroughly enjoying it and hope we have many others.
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#340723 - 05/16/07 11:04 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
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John as I stated in a previous post your opinions are most welcome. I appreciate you sharing your vast experience with us, I myself am just starting to venture into a world that you yourself have already accumulated a vast amount of knowledge. However, having spent a decade of my life honing my kicking skills, I just can't abandon them after having seen just how useful they can be. For me my kicks are are useful to me as my punches, I throw them with confidence and with ease. I take the risk of landing with an tool that is twice as long and nearly three or four times as powerful. And being only 5'7 I have especially focused on direct linear kicks such as the side kick, and back kick. Coming from a TKD background which is very sports orientated I've learned how to use incorporate footwork to enhance the versatility of my kicks. Now I must admit that while most of my self defense skills have been practice to face an untrained assailant, much of my sparring have been against trained opponents.

As far as wrestling having the ability to take my down, that depends on much of what they know correct? I have sparred with high school wrestlers before and they do not know how to spar versus a TMA, they only know high school wrestling which does not involve punches and kicks.

As far as someone taking me down in a street fight, well I am sure there are other ways to prevent a take down that are not legal in NHB matches that are much more effective than just sprawling?

As for the hop side kick, I find it useful because it is a direct kick, I use it to attack my opponents ribs and stomach, I put a very good snap so that it is quick and I re-chamber all my kicks so as to not get them caught. I use the heel of my foot to hit my targets, just as I do with back kicks.

Someone mentioned earlier that the hop side kick would not be useful because of the stance or position it leaves you in. I trained so that I always maintain a proper fighting or boxers stance. My hands are always up. My knees are bent, my rear heel is off of the ground and I am in a forward position capable of immediately attacking and countering. So the hop kick does not leave me vulnerable. The back kick however, does leave me vulnerable but only for a moment, I only execute it when I know it will land. Both the hop side kick and back kick are linear kicks, and a fighter rarely has the ability to evade them moving backwards, these kicks require the opponent to side step out of the way other wise they will get hit. This gives me an advantage, as I already know that if I do not land my kick, I know in which direction my opponent is going to respond from.
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#340724 - 05/17/07 04:15 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
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I think part of the equation is that in MMA we are already aware that the opponent is probably skilled in wrestling and take-downs therefore we are less likely to commit to the kind of kick which might endanger us.

If we look at TKD competition and count how many times kicks just don't connect the way we'd like (or at all) then we should consider how much more vulnerable we are when the opponent can rush us or grab etc.

An earlier post pointed out how effective kicks were against tired fighters. There's also the surprise element of a good kick. Mark Weir, as a TKD champion was expected to throw kicks when he first entered UFC. he didn't and what a surprise his opponent got (in 11 seconds, I believe).
However, Weir has used kicks very successfully in other fights.

I'm not so sure MMA lacks TKD rather than lacks people who know how best to utilise their kicks, or have the confidence to use them in MMA situation.
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#340725 - 05/17/07 06:22 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


While many of you agree that certain kicks such as leg kicks have their place in MMA, many of you disagreed that TKD kicks or the 2 basic ones I brought up would be useless. And so many agreed with John that a good fighter would not need kicks in a NHB fight. Then it seems that kicks themselves were in jeopardy of being discarded altogether. At this point it seems many of you decided not to disagree with john, but to some how try and squeeze in the usefulness of kicks.




I think you are missing a very important distinction that has arisen in the argument so far: that most martial artists are not professionals.

I have argued that kicking can be very effecting in MMA, because if a professional athlete is able to develop great kicking skills on top of his wrestling and boxing skills, then he will have an edge. However, 90% of martial artists are people who spend perhaps 2-4 hours a week going to classes. They don't lift weights and could not be considered athletes in terms of their fitness levels, or their skill levels.

Because of this, teaching self defense to such people will need to revolve around simple stuff that can be maintained and learned with just a few hours of teaching a week, and can be performed with less than brilliant fitness levels. Wrestling and boxing are two disciplines that can be performed with reasonable efficacy without being all that fit, although being fit/strong etc will always be improve them. TKD on the other hand, being a discipline that requires a great deal of athleticism to perform even the more simpler side-kicks or roundhouse kicks well. The time taken to improve and hone the discipline of kicking is just too great for it to be valid for most MA hoobyists.

On the other hand, people like myself, who does 6-8 hours of TKD, 3 weight training sessions, and a couple of judo classes, every week, obviously have a far higher athletic ability, making kicks more achievable and more worthwhile to train. Professional MMAists, who have even more time to train, will find even more value in training some more unusual areas of martial arts, e.g. GSP's kicking ability.

That's my take on it anyway.

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#340726 - 05/17/07 06:58 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


As far as wrestling having the ability to take me down, that depends on much of what they know correct?





True. Everything is relative. However there is no denying the fact that a wrestlers job is made IMMEDIATELY 50% easier when a person has one of their legs off the ground. That's a fact. And that's all I'm saying.


Quote:


I have sparred with high school wrestlers before and they do not know how to spar versus a TMA, they only know high school wrestling which does not involve punches and kicks.





Sparring is one thing, fighting is another. I think we all know that. And I can't speak for the wrestlers you sparred with. However I know some wrestlers that are STUPID tough (yes that's a different category folks) and just crazy. Again it comes down to PRESSURE and that is perhaps the one thing that wrestlers are better at than anyone. I think that deserves consideration.


Quote:


As far as someone taking me down in a street fight, well I am sure there are other ways to prevent a take down that are not legal in NHB matches that are much more effective than just sprawling?





This is always a slippery slope and I naturally disagree because I think it's a faulty premise. The idea is that because wrestlers are "sport guys" that once the rules are broken, they will be completely ineffective. Thats a tremendous assumption.

The best wrestlers live on the very edge of the rules as it is.

Yes there are ways of avoiding a takedown other than by using a full sprawl but "rules" will have little to do with it. It's time we got ourselves off of this "sport is no good because it has rules, BS". When there are no rules, the only difference is getting beaten bad enough for a hospital stay, AFTER he performs a takedown.

I don't want folks making the assumption that I think all kicks are bad and don't have a place. That's not true. I am just presenting another point of view that is often (clearly) at odds with most traditional martial artists. I personally do not like kicking and wouldn't kick because I see fighting differently than many people do.

Kicking is (basically) a long range tool, and I've RARELY seen fights where guys have maintained that distance needed to use kicking effectively. Usually the distanced is closed VERY rapidly in real fights and assaults. That is unless they were doing it for fun or money and I'm talking about self-defense here.

The fights I've seen in bars and pool halls were never like that as were those outside in the parking lots. Inside, there was rarely any ROOM for kicking. But I DID see guys getting tackled, slammed and clinched MANY times.

When I did see an attempted kick, it usually identified the person that was about to meet ass to asphalt. No lie.

These folks of course, were not always the best athletes in the world. But that isnít to say that they were all slobs either. But the realties are what they are. I rarely saw ďmartial artsĒ techniques (which is often going to be kicking) involved. Although once (and I swear this is true) a guy starting $hit with some other guys. This guy left the scene and came back later wearing his gi. I think we laughed ourselves to the point of pissing our pants. But thatís another story (nothing happened that time)

To sum up why I donít like kicking as a strategy, would be the sheer speed of real fights and the fact that the distance in them is closed very quickly. If youíre halfway up with a kick when the distance is being closed (on the half beat or something), you canít move either forward or backward. You are essentially stuck in place, unless you are VERY good at ďspeed hoppingĒ on one leg. (Not something I would advise to anyone).

Doesnít paint a pretty picture in my eyes.



-John

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#340727 - 05/17/07 10:26 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: JKogas]
TroTro Offline
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In NHB, one of the goal is to score points. On the other hand, the aim of self-defense is different. In my opinion, the way of kicking in self-defense situation can be different from NHB. For the same technique, the usage may be vary. For example, instead of side-kicks or round-house kicks, I would choose push-kicks or front-kicks. I think push-kick is a nice tool for offset opponent's balance while increasing space/distance at the same time. It can create an opening to escape (you don't want to entangle with your opponent if you are trying to run away). It can also send the opponent to a certain location (let say there are chairs/trash/whatever-objects behind your opponent, a push-kick is a nice way to push your opponent into that spot).

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#340728 - 05/17/07 10:34 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

In NHB, one of the goal is to score points.






In NHB/MMA, kicks are used for KO or knockdown - just like they would be in self defense. Perhaps you are thinking of point sparring?
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#340729 - 05/17/07 10:45 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
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Opps, i was trying to say point sparring. Err... I need some coffee ^^;

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#340730 - 05/17/07 11:05 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
fmorris Offline
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NHB is not self defense. Two guys a padded cage, usually knowlegeable of the other person's skills, with rules, however few, squaring off and fighting with a referee and without the interference of others, is not a self defense situation. Why make the comparison? If you search "kick ko" on youtube there is a video of a guy kicking another guy in the head in a parking lot, while both are standing. He Kos the guy, who was obviuosly not expecting it. You have to be good at kicking to use it, but don't you have to be good at wrestling to use it as well? I've seen a lot more people kicking and punching each other in fights than I have doing BJJ style grappling. I've also seen much smaller people kick larger people and injur them. Why try to discredit? How many Kevin Randlemans are there out there, stalking our streets, waiting to shoot in on those silly kickers and steal our wallets? If I kick someone, I'm not going to say "watch out for my TKD!!" I think anyone with good training will use the most simple thing possible, be it kick or whatever, to win a self defense encounter. I know it's not the poular opinion, but i do not think watching UFC fights is the end all for martial arts theory and debate. Just because something doesn't work against Kevin Randalman doesn't mean it won't work against the drunk guy who just slapped your wife.


Edited by fmorris (05/17/07 11:06 AM)

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#340731 - 05/17/07 11:15 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: fmorris]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

NHB is not self defense.




Please do not make a strawman here. I never said NHB = SD. However, the active elements of timing, motion and energy are the same as it would be against any other type of resistant opponent.
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#340732 - 05/17/07 05:23 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
matxtx Offline
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Tek said:

Quote:

Someone mentioned earlier that the hop side kick would not be useful because of the stance or position it leaves you in. I trained so that I always maintain a proper fighting or boxers stance. My hands are always up. My knees are bent, my rear heel is off of the ground and I am in a forward position capable of immediately attacking and countering.




This stance is an example of what will make TKD kicks easier but because its now NHB it makes sprawling harder,dealing with tie ups harder,shooting in harder.
And if you go into a stance to deal with those then i makes kicking TKD style ,like the hop side kick,harder.Make that suicidal.

A boxers or traditional stand up fighting stance wont let you cope with all of it.If you have your legs one forward lots a fair bit more than the front lika a boxers everything wrestling wise becomes difficult.Your hands are too far in close to reach out or catch or pummel.You cant suddenlt be switching stances to do different things.
From the stance needed to deal with NHB the kicks of TKD technicaly and physicaly dont fit.They were designed for you body to be in the start position a TKD guy would be in against andother stand up or mainly another TKD guy and not to be facing the tactics of a wrestler.


Edited by Supremor (05/17/07 05:26 PM)

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#340733 - 05/17/07 08:04 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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I completely disagree with you matxtx. What makes my stance different from any kick boxer? What your calling ineffective is your own personal bias on the boxers stance. Ever single kick boxer in the UFC uses a traditional boxing stance.

There are even strikers with no kick boxing back grounds who use this stance. What you calling as the superior "UFC" stance is none other than the wrestlers stance which is basically a flat footed front stance. Some strikers adaopt this stance in order to get ready for a wrstlers take down, because it allows them to sprawl quickly.

I on the other hand I prefer a boxers stance with a boxers footwork. I like to move around. I will never strike with both of my feet flat footed. If a wrestler shoots at me I move back or move in circles to avoid, sprawling for me is a last resort. It's like blocking, if I have to block I will, but it's a back up to avoiding the attack altogether.

For instance every fighter from team quest regardless of whether they are strikers or wrestlers get into that flat footed forward stance, all ready to shoot and sprawl when they get shot on. But in my opinion they have a weakness that can be exploited by a boxers footwork. A good comparison would be Chris Lebon vs Anderson Silva. Lebon having a reputation for having heavy hands went into the ring flat footed throwing hard punches. Silve came in using foot work moving in and out with his punches, going into range then out of range using his jabs. He was able to catch Lebon because of his superior foot work which kept him away from Lebons punches.

That fight led him to fight then Middle weight champion Rich Franklin. And using the same kick boxers tance he used the MT clinch and destroyed Franklin with knees to the stomach and face. Using the clinch to keep Franklin off balance. This is how I train also, I emphasize the MT clinch in my training and footwork.
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#340734 - 05/18/07 06:18 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Okay folks now lets introduce a different kick how about a hop front kick or skip front kick. A front kick is a kick often used in Muay Thai often it is used to push and knock down the opponent using the heel. However, being that this is a TKD discussion on TKD kicks we've added footwork to it. The slight hop/skip allows for deception, distance covered, speed and power.

Like the hop/skip side kick this is a linear kick, it can be done with a push or with a quick snap.

In the UFC you often see strikers use a MT front kick or push kick, it is often very telegraphed the user brings their knee up to a high chamber then thrusts their leg out. Often the kick is aloud because it can easily dodged. But sometimes when done in closed proximity the opponent just takes the hit.

Adding the hop/skip for obvious reasons would be a advantageous I believe. What say you folks?
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#340735 - 05/18/07 10:28 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TroTro Offline
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IMHO, toss in WTF 45-degrees-round-kick as a mix with front-kick and push-kick can be interesting. Combine with skip/hop step low roundhouse kick, knee feint/shin block, and jab, it should be less predictable. However, it depends heavily on footwork.

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#340736 - 05/18/07 11:17 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


Okay folks now lets introduce a different kick how about a hop front kick or skip front kick. A front kick is a kick often used in Muay Thai often it is used to push and knock down the opponent using the heel. However, being that this is a TKD discussion on TKD kicks we've added footwork to it. The slight hop/skip allows for deception, distance covered, speed and power.

...

Adding the hop/skip for obvious reasons would be a advantageous I believe. What say you folks?





I like the front kick, but I don't particularly like the hop step. Although it is quick footwork, it is also not particularly stable, because your weight needs to be high up so higher centre of mass= easier to take down. I say scrap the hop step and the front kick can be used effectively- in certain circumstances anyway.

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#340737 - 05/18/07 12:41 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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Ok.Its cool you disagree im not going to try to change your mind just stand by mine.
Its just common sense.

Im not biased towards a boxers stance.I think the boxers stance is great...for boxing.
The MT stance is great......for MT.
The wrestling stance is great.......for wrestling.

NHB is all of these combined so it makes total sense that you need to be able to do all these things.If you choose one of these stances over the other it makes doing something else harder.

Im coming from the veiw of fighting the best.Against people who can do it all.I never know untill its too late if the person attacking me has 'done a bit' so its simpler for me to train with the best in mind.

Im not actualy saying what stance to do or going into it,its impossible in writing.Im saying that a stand up stance makes you vunerable for defence against a person who can take you down,pummel and tie you up,and less able to takedown them or tie them up.Its possible..if they are a mug though its too risky.

If you were to be in a wrestlers stance you cant strike so I havnt mentioned a 'UFC stance.

I would also beg to differ that any one at the top is in a boxing stance...they are more sqaure on.Making it harder to side kick or do the knee chambers of TKD kicks.
What if your side kick misses..or they step back...you are side on...so so vunerable.

I think your also assuming that the person you face is a dunce and will not do footwork or feint to shoot on you and that they will wave a big sign saying 'im coming'.Not so.

Footwork is essential yes.Im not saying be flat footed or do a wrestlers stance,you cant as now you cant strike as well as is needed.

Ill put my head on the line,without checking footage yet and say that I reckon the best in the world are more square on that boxers or kickboxers...maybe they are more so if they have MT backrounds yet I bet there hips are not as forward.

If you atart going deeper..being side on makes you vunerable to their low kicks taking out both of your legs..ending up on your arse.

Imnot talking about facing just some wrestler who is flat footed im talking about facing someone who can do it ALL back to you and you dont know whats coming.

And as for circling foot work..its actualy easier to face different directions more square on that do it more side on as thefeet have to move more.
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#340738 - 05/18/07 01:34 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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One more thing I would like to add folks. I hope I have not given the impression that kicks would be the main tool in our arsenal. I understand that the main tools are striking and while I personally feel that certain tkd kicks can be adopted and functional in an NHB environment I am not under any delusions that sound wrestling skills take presidence over kicking ability.

While often the hands are used to set up kicks, I find that kicks with footwork are great openers or ways to get inside close range. So far all the kicks I have suggested have a forward momentum to them, footwork that would enable someone to get inside and upclose in order to deliver punches from mid range, clinch, and throw knees and elbows.

While the generlization is that TKD is 80% kicks, when discussion it in a NHB environment I'd had hoped that you would imagine who would use these techniques sparingly with the right time. While you can find tons of examples on the internet of TKD fighters entering kick boxing matches or karate vs TKD matches and only using their kicks, I'd have hoped that you would give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that the NHB fighter I refer to would already be well rounded and versed in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, boxing, and muay thai, however, as the added benefit he would pull from the TKD arsenal to enhance their game.

In previous posts the examples of comparing a wrestler to a kicker would show just how effective and essential it is to have a solid ground game. While this prioritizes were kicks would fit within the tools of NHB tricks, I believe it is beneficial to add the kicks on top of what skills the fighter already possess'.
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#340739 - 05/18/07 01:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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The answer in my mind and my points have been that the hope of pulling the TKD kicks into the arsenal of an NHB fighter will not likely happen as the mechanics of the kick dont fit with NHB.So its unlikely to happen.Sorry everyone,they dont fit into it.Techniacaly and pysicaly.
If someone works on adapting the kick..maybe.But then they would end up with a kick that probably doesnt resemble TKD kicks anymore.Its the logical conclusion.

And im not anti TKD at all...I still train in it.lol.My eye is on the whole picture though.
Its not that anyone is not good enough to do TKD kicks in NHB its that there is no sensible ,common sense or technicaly and tacticaly sound way for them to do them and be the best.
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#340740 - 05/18/07 06:11 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
Dereck Offline
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TeK, I can understand what you are doing and I expect you to be very proficient at TKD and its kicks, and certainly more skilled them myself. I think just about any kick can work as long as it is used at the right time and the person doing it has a good understanding of its dynamics, and also depending on who their opponent it. However what you are trying to do is find a place for TKD in the fighting world or even the MMA world and that is where the problem lies.

I think that John will agree with me on this but what we have to do is stop thinking of styles in these instances but rather think of the "fight". There are no styles when it comes to fighting whether it is for your life or in a MMA match. There are so many dynamics involved that by limiting yourself to one style you will lose. The rules are different if there are any rules. You have to use all of your tools whether it is striking, kneeing, elbowing, sweeping, tripping, grappling, wrestling, ground'n pound and yes kicking. Without all of this you are missing aspects of the fight and your tool box is limited to what you will have to use when you need it.

When it comes to competitions whether sparring TKD or even grappling, I have found that the basics are what get you by. Sure there are people that know some flashy kicks or have some great armbar/leg lock move but overall the basics are what get you by. When it comes to fighting or even MMA again that is what wins the majority of the fights, basics. If basics dictate that you should punch then you should. If they dictate you should shell then shell. Clinch, throw knees or elbow or even kick, let the fight dictate what you will use. A surprise kick in the beginning such as you have last posted may catch somebody off guard but not everybody, but it is a possibility. I have heard it time and time again and I also believe it, "be first" as that can dictate the fight in many cases. So I wouldn't get hung up on kicking in these instances but rather what will work at that time.

Kicking is great, I like kicking and I know you do. The better you are at kicking the more likely you will be able to get them off and be successful. Your opponent however can change that and can nullify kicks if they are good at that. I consider GSP a great kicker, as do I think David Loiseau is however I have seen both have their kicks nullified and hence they use other skills that the fight dictates. If there is distance then the kick can work great but up close then it is time for hands. If clinched up then you work your body, elbows, knees or go for the take down. On the ground the dynamics change yet again and you do what the fight dictates, shell or go for the knock out or wrap up your opponent, use elbows or punch, or what have you.

I think with the kicking aspect and NHB you are trying to find a place for TKD in that world and trying to fit a square into a circle and are having difficulty doing so. However if you shave away the corners of the square you can make a circle and it fits well and that is becoming well rounded as a fighter and utilizing all of the skill and not worrying about if NHB lacks TKD. TKD is there if you know what to watch for but when it boils down to the fight, that is what it is, a fight. It isn't TKD, it isn't wrestling, it isn't BJJ, it isn't Muay Thai ... it is fighting. You may be a TKD'st or a BJJ'st or what have you as your "base" martial art but when you enter that ring/octagon or are on the street you are fighting and much looks the same that many things are so indistinguishable only because they are the same. Fancy TKD kicks can work but the basics will win it more then not. And if I kick you in the head with a high roundhouse and knock you out ... I see that just as a kick that could have been learned from any martial art and if it is TKD then I give a cheer because I am TKD, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it was a kick, not flashy just the basics.

I hope I haven't derailed this as that wasn't my intention. I was trying to answer the original theme of NHB lacks TKD. I don't think it does, it gets used when it is needed. What NHB does lack is fighters who don't know how to kick properly when the fight dictates it.
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#340741 - 05/18/07 06:20 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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matxtx,

I don't quite completely understand exactly what your trying to say. I understand it but I just cant picture it. Could you please elaborate by giving better examples?

1. Are you saying TKD kicks wont work because of a TKD stance? or because of a wrestlers stance?

2. How is a TKD totally different from any other kick except for the fact that TKD kicks "technically" better. Meaning much research has gone into making them faster, stronger, and practical from traditional karate kicks. I say this because in order to evolve the martial art in a more sports context they have taken into consideration timing and distance and have compensated with footwork, something many other styles of karate have not done.

3. In Olympic style sparring competitors only use two forms of fighting stance. One is a complete side stance, this is used to minimize the amount of targets on your body. The second stance is a forward stance, this is often the preferred stance as it allows you to be more aggressive and because of the more forward position of your body it allows for your rear leg chamber to be quicker because it travels at a shorter by only moving straight up; your body has less to turn your trunk is already forward facing your opponent as opposed to being in a side stance were you must turn your entire trunk to face your opponent. This is the stance I prefer.

In both stances, the body is kept lightly forward in order to keep the forward momentum to attack and to counter attack. Usually the back heel is kept off the ground, there is often a bounce like in boxing, but often temporary like in boxing.
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#340742 - 05/18/07 06:22 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
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Dereck, I think you make a number of very good points. You are right to say that in the end, a fight is just a fight, and if something works then great, but why try and force TKD to work in a disadvantageous position- that is squaring a circle. Bravo!

Matxt, I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are wrong when you say that kicking does not work "technically and physically," the fact that we do see kicking used effectively on occasion and even see a few knockouts with them, shows that they are certainly POSSIBLE to perform without conflicting with the rest of your mma game.

Tek, as Dereck said, you are obviously a very skilled TKD practitioner and far be it from me to tell you what you can and cannot do. However, I do think you are trying too hard to justify specific kicks in a NHB context. It is so difficult to argue the case for such and such a kick, because in the end someone will always be able to find a way to counter it, and thus conclude that it is ineffective. Think of BJJ, there is almost always a way to counter a technique, but the question is whether or not that counter will be used by your opponent. This does not validate BJJ, because as a PACKAGE, the skills are usable.

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#340743 - 05/18/07 06:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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Dereck,

I know I keep using the word "TKD" kicks, but in reality I know they are just tools. Lets be realistic, I have not named any kicks that are not found in karate schools, and certainly they can be found in kick boxing and in pride fights.

The footwork involved in the skip/hop kicks is already being used. Nearly everyone throws a skip round kick, whether they aim low or high, they are using a hop/skip roundhouse kick.

All I did was change the kick. Instead of a round kick, I changed it for a side kick, this doesn't make the kick any slower, it's a linear kick, and this most certainly doesn't make you any less vulnerable when employing this kick. linear kicks have more power.

But if you had two NHB fighters all things being equal both proficient in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, boxing, muay thay. And both were at a stalemate would it not be advantageous for one of the fighters to put their kicking ability into use, to pull out tricks not yet seen by other fighters? And I for one feel that the likely hood of a kicking technique landing or scoring on an opponent depends not just on the kickers ability but on whether the opponent has training learning to anticipate, recognize, and react appropriately to a kick. I have yet to have formal training in ground grappling, but I have sat in a few classes at the local Cesar Gracie school, Ralph Gracie school and other Gracie who teaches out here at the local American karate club. And I have yet to see them practice countering kicks.

Would a fighter such as this use a kick within close range...of course not, but a kick such as this could be used to close the distance, and as you put it "be first" after all your leg is two to three times longer than your arm, and three to four times stronger.

And given the right amount of time and practice it can be developed into a useful tool, and if the other guy doesn't have those 3 thins I mentioned above to deal with a kick, the more better for you. This is how I currently feel about my kicks. I've started other threads where I've confessed to dumping several techniques that I feel did not work for me, the kicks I mention here are very basic, they involved footwork but we do train after all.
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#340744 - 05/18/07 06:45 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
TeK9 Offline
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Supremor,

Your last paragraph, could not the same be argued for kicks as well. Just replace TKD kicks with bjj and you have the same point I made several post above. That a person could always find a way to counter a kick but this does not invalidate the kicks usefulness. The kick can work in the right context. So now that we got that out of the way, I wanted to discuss what kicks could work and what kicks wouldn't. You have made it clear that you only prefer the most basic of kicks, and by the way I agree with you, because currently every kick being used by both wrestlers and strikers are the most basic. Now perhaps some might consider the skip/hop kicks advance, but the fact is everyone already uses skip/hop round kicks, whether they kick low to the legs or high with them, this kick is commonly used, all I did was change the kick, the footwork is still the same.
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#340745 - 05/18/07 06:51 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Tough to keep up with your guys, every time I think I've addressed a post another one pops up. I do consider myself a good kicker. Hey why not, I put in the practice and the sparring time for the better part of a decade. And that is why I feel a good kicker can be made in 2 years. I've also discarded many of the kicks in the TKD arsenal. The ones that happen to look tricky or advanced are the ones that require a minimal amount of foot work. in reality I see how easy they are onces you put in the practice, to a layman these movements probably seem completely out of their depth because they don't know the simple mechanics involved. This is something that everyone in TKD has had to discover, that at first something that looks extremely difficult is actually very simple, once you know the nuances of the technique you can make it work. Much of TKD's flashiness is like this.
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#340746 - 05/18/07 07:09 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
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When I say kicks dont work technicaly and physicaly I mean the kicks we are talking about.And kicks done in a TKD way,especialy WTF.
They were created for the style of sparring they do...for the stance they are in.the leg can come directly up to chamber the knee.Or for the side kick,which we are discussing,because you are more side on,the front leg can be popped out.It works.

Now...for the about the 3rd time...when you fight NHB you are dealing with everything,takedowns,tie ups,striking,kicking,whatever and also needing to take them down,tie them up and strike and kick them ALL at the same time..so you stance would have to be wider and more square to be ableto do all this effectively offensively and defensively.

This means the front leg would be more outside of them so to side kick you would haveto bring it in line them,THEN pop it forward which is more awkward to do and you get usefull power in the time you would haveto do it for it not to be countered...ESPECIALY against a very good person.
To go into the knee chamber in front roundkick..its the back leg which is out of position now if your stance is more square,which it has to be to deal with sprawls and to attempt takedowns.

Kineticaly TKD kicks would be worse and for power ,which you realy need,you techniacaly would not get it.
Its simple, tactical, common sense blinded by the fact that most WANT the TKD kicks to work so much.Again,sorry if that offends.

Basicaly in NHB you find yourself and put yourself in different positions to deal with the things coming at you .This puts you pyhsicaly on different planes and angles.So to generate power effectively and tacticaly it takes different techniques. This is why NHB is an art in itself..these things are being developed now.Study the human body and see.Try it.Im figuring it our by training in NHB and being influence by and training with people like Steve Morris,who is proberbly the only person bordering geniuse in martial arts today, and ,like Dereck said, leaving behind attachment to styles and concentrating on the fight itself.
Ill put my head on the line again and say in years time there will be a pure NHB style that uses these positions to generate power in a particular way for anything goes fights.Not new as such.just adapted.

I know what I mean in my head cant explain it as well though haha.So I willleave it here and beleive what I do andstand by it, by trying it and testing.


Edited by matxtx (05/18/07 07:52 PM)

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#340747 - 05/18/07 10:09 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TroTro Offline
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Quote:

...
This means the front leg would be more outside of them so to side kick you would haveto bring it in line them,THEN pop it forward which is more awkward to do and you get usefull power in the time you would haveto do it for it not to be countered...



Instead of popping the front foot forward, you may move your feet forward/backward/sideway at an angle (a side-step) to line up your feet in a sideway orientation. Because a side-stepping is involved, it may create opening while your opponent is adjusting his orientation. Of cause your opponent will move/turn too, that is where the quick footwork comes into play. To switch back to a more square-ish orientation (boxer stance, etc), move your feet forward/backward/sideway at an angle (another side-step).


Edited by TroTro (05/18/07 10:11 PM)

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#340748 - 05/18/07 10:22 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

The kick can work in the right context. So now that we got that out of the way, I wanted to discuss what kicks could work and what kicks wouldn't.




Well of course the back kick we know works but I always thought a cut kick could work. If you are repeatedly able to get away with leg kicks on your opponent whether he is a stand up fighter only or perhaps a very tired fighter, setting them up with the fake and following up with the other leg could really do damage. The cut kick actually is one of my favorite kicks.

Of course this again cannot just be used as you would be more off balance, though a good kicker I find can stay in balance and get off kicks quickly, which I think TeK would agree. Kicks have to be launched quickly and legs retracted and possibly the kicker moving back out of range to prepare for somebody with good hands or somebody trying to shoot in on your legs or your body. Again I think kicks are possible with a good kicker but they have their time and place.
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#340749 - 05/18/07 11:48 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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OKay Dereck, I'm gonna go with you on this one, lets discuss the cut kick. It may and may not work. It is possible sure, but I'm going to have to think NAY on this kick. The cut kick is purely for feeling your opponent out. It's used to see how they will react. In the kicking game such as TKD it's used to either see if they stay still or move, that way you have an idea how they will follow up to your attack this gives you insight regarding what kind of fighter they are, whether they are sensitive or not, how responsiove they are or if they are just sluggish. This works great in a kicking game because the cut kick doesn't always contain much power, but in a NHB if they don't move back and your cut kick doesn't have much stopping power, I think you set yourself up for a take down.

However, the other side of the coin. If you have a sensitive opponenet who reacts to everything you do and when you cut kick they react and step back, then you can immediately initiate a second or third attack with kicks if you want, because since they reacted by giving you more space, which is exactly what a kicker wants to do his thing.

So Dereck, like the kicks I suggested, the cut kick has it's usefulness if done in the right context. Can it work? Sure. Would I try? probably no more than 2 or 3 times in a match. Otherwise they can feel me out instead.

But I've never seen anyone use a cut kick in a pro fight. I've only seen feints done
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#340750 - 05/19/07 04:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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I've never seen it either and when we doing MMA type of fighting I am probably one of the few. Again like any kicking I believe it could work but it has to be at the right time. I wouldn't just initiate it or even plan to do it and that is what I think with all kicks. Only if the fight dictates it may work.

For instance if I am getting away with continued kicks to my opponents legs and he is getting weaker and now is cluing in and will want to stop this kick then I "may" use the cut kick to feint the kick and then counter with the actual kick. I though disagree with you saying that it doesn't have much stopping power. I find the cut kick to be extremely powerful especially if you understand the dynamics and turn that hip. However this is a risky kick and probably why you don't see it as you may be jammed and knocked off balance. I think this hits the head on the nail for almost all kicks and why the limited kicking.
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#340751 - 05/20/07 11:29 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TroTro]
matxtx Offline
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I not sure I get what you mean.
I cant afford to be moving my feet about everywhere,I have to stay in the same stance as much as possible or I will be predictable.My feet have to be the same width apart all the timeto keep balance and move well.

My concern too is the more about the hips.My hips are more square to be able to shoot or sprawl so to do a front leg side kick would be a bit like doing aback leg side kick and having to turn my hips over.In a TKD stance the idea of the front leg hop side kick,and not doing a back leg side kick, is because its fast because you hips are virtualy aready chambered.
NHB hasnt got the luxery of chambers and re-chambers.

Its not a wrestslers stance because you cant strike or defend strikes,its not a strikers stance because you cant wrestle or defend wrestling.Its something inbetween.It simply has to be.

To be in a stance that makes you able to do TKD kicks fast and powerfully means sacrificing the ablitly to wrestle well.An ability needed against he best.

Try it...stand more square and try these kivks..its awkward and slower with lots more of movement than being side on.Which is where TKD kicks are good and designed for.
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#340752 - 05/27/07 02:37 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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Matxt when I first statrted TKD we practiced old school way. When we did kicks we had to do them utilizing all stances. yes that even includes getting into a low front stance and executing a front kick with our rear leg. Same goes for round house, we performed them from a side horse stances and a back stance. So when you say that TKD kicks cannot be done in NHB or against wrestlers because the stances would render the kicks useless. I have to respectfully disagree wit you.

If you stand in the same spot, squared off in order to sprawl or shoot, then your pretty much being predictable.

I predict your going to be standing there, hips square in the same spot not moving. Standing perfectly still for me to kick you. BLA-DOW, CA-PaNG, PoW-WoW
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#340753 - 05/27/07 01:55 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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First off I was offering my opinion and my personal experience on attempting to use these kicks in NHB enviroments from ACTUALY HAVING TRIED IT.No theory.Just simple deduction and common sense.
I was also refering to side kicks and I mentioned round kicks when refering to the WTF or sports way with the Knee chambered in front.

I think footwork is very important and your prediction of me standing there square on like a sitting duck is totaly wrong.

Front kicks I have not mentioned.

I agree that the old style way of doing the round kick would work better,not ideal because it still requires a chamber and and an arcking roundness,yet better.And because,like you say,when training they are done from sqaure stances.

To get into the round kick,the reason people prefer the Muay Thai kick is because its done straight legged,no chamber (Although there kind of is what some call a chamber and I know some camps kick slightly diffferent ways so its a case do I use the word chamber or not use it haha), and is powerfull because of the total body movement behind it.
In the TKD traditional the round kicks do use body in them ,mainly hip,though not as much because of re-chambering which requies the knee,which acts as a break,to snap it out then back.

The use of the arms to get power is never mentioned in TKD either.
The Muay Thai kick cant even be done EXACTLY as it is in that style becuase it isnt a Muay Thai match..its NHB.You cant afford to spin if you miss,like you would in Muay Thai.Or have the time to step across with the supporting leg before the kick,like in MT.
NHB is adapting as its own thing.
Dont forgett,im coming from the angle of the best of the best.Fighting a 6 year old you could do a double backflip then kick them.

The thread is kind of making out that people in NHB are not skilled at TKD enough to do the kicks that where mentioned.My point is that its not that.Its because the kicks dont fit im affraid.Tactically or physicaly against the best,they dont fit in.Kineticaly and technicaly they dont!The NHB fighter will choose other,simpler,tacticaly better ways.
How the hell do you sprawl after it misses or is blocked with your leg in the fricking air re-chambing?Or deal with tie ups?
How do you chamber in the first place before they have seen it coming and are on you?
Some might say they are not against the best.
How do you know that untill its too late?How do you know how good anyone attacking you might be? And how do you get better and progress if its not to have goals to be the best?Might as well go home if its a half arsed against a nobody kind of training session.

The NHB fighters are doing the simplest things,the most powerffull.
This is the whole thing about it.The revolution to the mainstream.That its not fancy,its not technicaly amazingly perfecy,or looks artistic.
Its messy, tiring choas.

Watching good TKD kicks in their own enviroment iswonderfull.Doing them is wonderfull too.
In NHB enviroments they are too long winded and dont tactical solve the problems of what could happen in NHB.
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#340754 - 05/27/07 02:08 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
matxtx Offline
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Actualy,it doesnt even matter if the TKD kicks can be done in Horse stance or back stance.No one in their right mind would be in those stances.There is no mobility.
So just training them in those stances does not give an argument for there use.
Are they still powerfull from those stances?Where they trained mobile in these stances?Where they done on pads from those stances?Were they taking into account tactics and what happens next?I doubt it.
More like against thin air in line work in a calm place no stress.

Thats the thing with this kind of stuff..its trained a s though it goes perfectly well and works and is all hunky dory.
NHB and real things are NEVER perfect or going well.Unpredictable choas.

Another thing is that when talking of round kicks in NHB its got to be mainly a low roundkick.And in TKD the mechanics of low kicking are not gone into at all!Its mid/ high..if it is low then it will be borrowed from MT because for stand up its the best low kick there is.


Edited by matxtx (05/27/07 02:41 PM)
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#340755 - 05/27/07 03:17 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
Supremor Offline
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Quote:


Actualy,it doesnt even matter if the TKD kicks can be done in Horse stance or back stance.No one in their right mind would be in those stances.There is no mobility.
So just training them in those stances does not give an argument for there use.
Are they still powerfull from those stances?Where they trained mobile in these stances?Where they done on pads from those stances?Were they taking into account tactics and what happens next?I doubt it.
More like against thin air in line work in a calm place no stress.





I think you have misunderstood Tek's point here Matt. Tek is arguing that once upon a time TKD fighters trained their kicks from classical stances. However, they found this ineffective from a mobility point of view, so they changed the stances and footwork to be more mobile. Tek is arguing that if it was done once, why can it not happen again- why can't the kicks be integrated into a new type of footwork?

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#340756 - 05/27/07 03:39 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
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If the kicks are changed to deal with
footwork for NHB then that goes with what iv been saying that its not being TKD anymore..its NHB.
So try it.Do it.I am all for that.Thats what I try to do.And it does not work well with TKD kicks.It would mean changing them .The kinematics and mechanics of the kick.
Its gone round in circles.

Your right,it was changed.But changed for what?....To work in stand up,fast paced TKD matches with TKD rules and a more side on stance.The creators did not think of NHB tactics,they thought of TKD sport tactics.Hence the whole reason the kicks are done like they are.

In a fight ANYTHING can happen.If ,after doing something, a fighter ends up in a position and he has a TKD background and he can use something in that moment,fair enough,it might work and come into play.Though to deliberatly go out with it in mind as a tactic,I dont think will work well and has been proven not to.


Edited by matxtx (05/27/07 04:12 PM)
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#340757 - 05/29/07 05:59 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: MattJ]
TeK9 Offline
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It's sad that not many people participated in this thread. I was hoping we could have a deeper discussion with fresh perspectives bringing something new everyday. Unfortunately no one wants to discuss TKD outside the realm of TKD.

While I now understand Matxtx point of view I still must respectfully disagree.

While I see now that your entire argument was meant to demonstrate why NHB fighters often kick as if they were swinging a bat. This is not the case for everyone. Those who come from a kick boxing and muay thai background still chamber their kicks, which is no different than WTF TKD kicks.

In my opinion the the whole point in chambering is to execute a faster less telegraphed kick which is why I believe it is used in Olym[ic style TKD because it allows for rapid multiple kicks to be used in succession. Not that such combo's can be done in NHB, but it demonstrates that the kicks would not be seen or telegraphed.

Anyways a kick is a kick. What I was really trying to get at was adding some of the more advanced kicks in TKD, the kicks that involve foot work. Skip/hop kicks, cut kicks, step through side kicks, spinning back kicks.

The total opposite of these kikcks would be hand and footwork, maneuvers such as the spinning back fist, superman punch, step in jab. All those maneuvers require footwork prior to the punch.

That is what I was really trying to get at with the kicks. I am not sure how other TKD styles train. But sparring in Olympic style requires that we learn foot work, attacks, and counter attacks. Some of these maneuvers can be applied to NHB. But Oh well we never got to that point, lets move on to something more closer to home I guess.
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#340758 - 05/29/07 07:17 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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''While I see now that your entire argument was meant to demonstrate why NHB fighters often kick as if they were swinging a bat.''


What?

The dreaded forum case of ''where the hell did you get that from''...maybe im poor at saying what i mean.I dont know.

My points were about why the side kick is not used in NHB.
Most were making out its lack of skill.I was putting forward that its possibly not,its becuase they tacticaly and technicaly dont fit and no one wants to learn to do them because of that.

The round kicks were mentioned,I cant remember how.But you cant do them that way becuase you end up buggered for everything else...speawling,shooting,tie ups.....whatever.
It is so so simple and,to me,obviouse.

If you fight in a position to do TKD kicks..you cannot do the other things needed to survive in NHB well enough.
If you fight in a way to deal with everything...you can now not do TKD kicks,...its pysicaly impossible...it would be slower and less powerfull.It would make everything the TKD kicks are meant to be ,totaly void because you out of place to do them.

How the hell do you chamber TKD kicks now that your in another stance ..not against a six year old...against the best in the world.

If you actualy do some NHB there is no other conlusion for it to come to.

Yea..do these kicks...but what next...what positions will your body be in straight after?..........vunerable.,,thats if while doing them you were not destroyed.
AND to stand in the start position to be able to do them means your side on like a TKD guy.....NO WAY is anyone going to be like at the top...because..for the 1 00000000000 time....you cannot do all the other stuff you need to do in NHB well enough to survive at the top.

I can just see it...'' How will I beat Fedor?I know....side kicks''.

Go and try it...find the best wrestler ,better still an NHB guy ,you can find.He has to get you to a position of ground and pound and you can only kick in your TKD stance.Id put money on the out come.

Your right...everyone does kick differently.In a fight anything happens...its just...''kick them''..''not how do I kick them''.So what ever background anyone has will come out inthe kick..one time it might be chambered..another time not..they dont bloody know..they just kick.Its not untill analyzing footage that you see what they did.Then you might see TKD...from someone who trained in it and it shows its head
Most take from Muay Thai as it tactucaly and technicaly fits better.there isnt even a TKD low kick!
Non of them are going to scrap it all and go and learn the TKD kicks mentioned.

If you disagree fine...I think your blinded by wanting them to work so much that you must find a way,even if it means making up the points im trying to make as being something else.

For them to work,they have to be adapted.


Edited by matxtx (05/29/07 07:28 PM)
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#340759 - 05/29/07 10:27 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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Matxtx

You sound a little heated in your post, whyI don't know. I personally have not engaged you in some kind of argument or debate. The last few posts I have written were trying to understand your point of view.

I have read your posts, and frankly I'm still a bit confused, but by the way your sounding it seems best that I do not ask anymore questions.

I spar in a boxers stance, even when I did Olympic style TKD sparring I always sparred in a boxers stance. I a fairly good with TKD kicks including the fancy jumping spinning kicks. There are certain kicks that I have learned which are coupled with footwork that I have found extremely valuable simply because these are not found in other styles. They may not be exclusive to TKD but rarely you see anyone practice using or countering them.

In NHB you see many fighters both strikers and grapplers take boxers stance, I don't see why they could not make the kicks I suggested work. After all these kicks I brought up are already being used, just not frequently or by many of the fighters...but still there are fighters that use them. Mike Swick, Anderson Silve, George St. Peiere, Chuck Liddel, and Ivan Salverry I have seen use these kicks. And all but Liddel stands in a boxers stands, he stands more squared off ready to sprawl. But the rest stand primarily in boxers stance. That was what I was trying to say.

Listen I don't know if you understand me or not, perhaps your right, maybe I am trying to hard to see something that just isn't there. Perhaps I'm trying to be an incorporate the training I have done for the last decade so that it is more functional.

I've been trying to start new conversations, but all Ikeepo getting from you is "it can't be done" type of posts, so please just ignore my post and perhaps someone with a fresh perspective might have the guts to post from a different point of view, no matter how they feel whether the kicks will work or not, but the important thing is that they come from a different perspective that way we can all learn.

I'm not trying to argue with you nor anger you. And I have given up trying to persuade of my point. We see different things.
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#340760 - 05/30/07 08:08 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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Quote:

there isnt even a TKD low kick!




sorry matxtx but isn't a TKD low kick just any kick done at low level?

I've seen them done (although, admittedly, not in NHB).
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#340761 - 05/30/07 10:33 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
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You've never seen a low roundhouse kick done in NHB? It's the most used kick. And yes TKD has low kicks, however, what they don't have is shin kicks. I have yet to find a source that includes shin kicks. Although if you watch beginners kick. They often kick target shields with their shins, because they fear kicking with their foot. I myself had an issue with it, especially when I first learned how to kick a chest protector, back then they hard these hard Adidas hogus. The outside was hardshell and really stung when my bear instep hit it.

I said it before and I say it again, if you can kick high, you can kick low. Although this does not include shin kicks, cause that requires shin development.
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#340762 - 05/30/07 11:14 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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Its ok,im calm im cool haha.
Ask away.
Its just frustrating im interpreted as saying one thing when Im not.Oh well.

The guys you mentioned I looked at on youtube and non are in a traditional boxers stance.They are in an interpretation of one that is more square and spread out.Well...a stance isnt fixed so it changes,but to my eyes in the main they are like that.It may be subtle for some to see..though its there.
I also never saw one do a WTF type round kick, knee chambered up in front.They were all variations on MT type kicks or maybe older style arcing kicks.I dont know their background so..
I saw one do a side kick to the leg..though it was too ineffective to want to be able to say'' train those'' to someone wanting to be the best in NHB.
I saw some backicks...they were not too bad actualy.Not enough for me to want to try them as a main tactic where I train though.
Ill keep them for TKD.

I am still learning myself so I could be wrong.Hey..id like to be,it would mean being able to use all my TKD. Coming from TKD and into NHB this is what im picking up and learning by trying and from others who have tried.


Edited by matxtx (05/30/07 11:39 AM)
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#340763 - 05/30/07 11:24 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
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Low rounds kicks require different body mechanics to do them most effectively and powerfully,like you would need to do against the best in the world or in a real situation, so in that sense I meant TKD has no round kick.

Just doing a TKD kick but lower is not good ENOUGH.Tacticaly or mechanicaly
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#340764 - 05/30/07 01:07 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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I just thought I would throw this in here as this discussion is TKD and MMA fighting. This is my TKD and there is no lack of TKD during training and fighting, but as I eluded to earlier, you use what you need at the time. If it calls for kicking then it will be used, just like ground work or clinching. I think that TKD will make its way more and more into MMA but we just won't recognize it as TKD, it will just be fighting.

Fort trio ready for a big fight at MFC 12
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#340765 - 05/30/07 01:22 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
trevek Offline
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Maybe TAGB does too much semi-contact these days. Mark Weir was a TKD world champion (under TAGB, I believe). maybe watch him and see what he does.

Incidentally, a WTF roundhouse is different from a Chang Hon one. High Kukki stances are closer to boxing stances than CH stances. That being said, I'm surprised TAGB don't use more boxing style stances for competition. Eclecticism has always been a forte of theirs.

Tek, I was joking (although I don't actually watch that much MMA/NHB)
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#340766 - 05/30/07 01:53 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
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How much of the alleged problem is that Chang Hon stylists generally stand more side on than MT stylists, therefore the MT kick is more designed for delivery from a face-on stance?
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#340767 - 05/30/07 01:59 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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Dereck,

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "NHB lacks kicks" I made the assumption that everyone would understand this, after all the only difference between TKD and all other forms of karate are basically the slightly greater emphasis that TKD places on kicking techniques.

Sure in no way do kicks fall under TKD, but I just thought since TKD emphasizes kicks, and since TKD is known for having a multitude of kicks, this would be the appropriate forum.

For example to me, I do not see the differences many thai fighters execute there round house compared to tkd roundhouse. The only difference is that they make contact with the shin and not always the case.
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#340768 - 05/30/07 02:34 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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This is a good explanation of a MT low kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQeXHXkL6ow

Different from TKD kicks or other styles kicks.

I have nothing against roundkicks in NHB,they work they are proven.TKD kicks have to be adapted to it though.WTF ones,because the knees chambered in front,would need a lot of adaption.The Chang Hon style one less so.

Its ALL about the start position.
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#340769 - 05/30/07 10:31 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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NO different than how I teach my students to kick low...even regular kicks are done that way...

There comes a point in time when you become comfortable with techniques to adapt them to your particular style, the way your body moves. This is the point when you no longer need to abide word for word with what your instructor taught you about the technique, your now making it your own.

Some people never think outside the box, they don't listen to their bodies when it tells you something feels ackward or something isn't right. These are the students who will attempt to execute a low round kick as if you were kicking the solar plexus or face.

It is natural that when you kick low, you no longer chamber upwards, however thee is still a chamber, instead of lifting the knee upwards you simply bend the knee back. This is something you discover on your own, unless your still a beginner. A MT, kick boxing and WTF TKD kick is all the same. The only difference is the striking tool, in TKD I have yet to find a reference to shin kicks.

The only time you get kick boxers that do not kick their round houses like TKD is when they come from a different martial arts background, for instance the Chong hon style has that wide trajectory kick (similar to a bat swing), which often is used by grappler's in NHB. However check out MT, kick boxers and they kick round kicks just like WTF TKD.

That video proved nothing...

Kick through your target...
Turn your entire body...
Kick with your whole body...

This is something everyone in TKD does, if not then your doing it wrong. The only difference between thai kicks and TKD is the use of the shin.

And one more time, truthfully if your a TKD student and your adept level which is around black belt, then you should basically be able to know you must adjust your kick in order to kick low, it's like the higher you kick the more you telegraph, because the target is further away, it's as basic as understanding that you must pivot your feet when you rotate your hip.
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#340770 - 05/31/07 04:54 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
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gotta agree. The clip was good but I saw little which I wasn't aware of from TKD.

The fuss about the step was strange to me because I'd automatically twist my foot or step if I was doing any other kick than front kick. The twisting of the foot starts the body motion which is furthered with the hip action (the body should drop the same way he describes) and the motion carries on up the leg and is released through the snapping action or by complete follow-through.

Even the whole thing about keeping the hands out is shown in CH patterns as you are supposed to extend the same arm as the kicking foot. The position of the lead hand and the reaction hand can be used for pulling the opponent.

I think the only real difference is the striking area, but many TKD folk use the instep over the ball anyway. Making it the shin is no big compromise except for two points:

1) better make sure they're conditioned
2) I'd suggest there is less power with the snapping kick the further up the leg (or wider area) than with the follow through kick (more commonly used in WTF).
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#340771 - 05/31/07 02:35 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: srvblues]
srvblues Offline
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Quote:

This is Steven Elliot (ITF TKD) in Cage Rage Contenders 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFYLA-SX_s




Nobody saw this video???????

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#340772 - 05/31/07 04:09 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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You said this Tek'

''I said it before and I say it again, if you can kick high, you can kick low''

Which to me reads like ''kick the same way high as you do low''

So I posted that to show that is not true.


Then this

''And one more time, truthfully if your a TKD student and your adept level which is around black belt, then you should basically be able to know you must adjust your kick in order to kick low, it's like the higher you kick the more you telegraph, because the target is further away, it's as basic as understanding that you must pivot your feet when you rotate your hip''

Yes I am competant thank you ver much.

What you have just said I have basicaly been trying to say about NHB.You must adjust your kick for NHB...of course you have to be adept at NHB to know that!

MT are not like TKD kicks.I am just crazy for saying that.Someone tell me please?
The WTF kick is knee chambered in front.The snap of the knee and the re-chamber back to the knee in front position ,puts a break on the full body motion of the kick.Yes,hip nd a foot swivel is involved but its not FULL body into it,its impossible.Study kinematics and find out.Why do you think MT guys spin if they miss or when shadow boxing?....TKD guys dont spin.They rechamber,which acts as a break.
I call your bluff and say your talking tosh that you knew how to do that.
There are similarities and also similarities in theory.Training and actualy doing are different.

I am not for one secomd take seriously that someone who does TKD kicks can just so easily go to MT without physical training in the switching.To say..''oh I can do TKD kicks so I can do MT is tosh.It would make it easier but to be proficient and to use in a fight having never done t hem...then no.Well maybe its just inept old me.haha.
It wasnt meant to get into stuff like this lol.

Im not sure I can take you guys seriously after posts like that.

Im mean ,if I said I can do MT and withough training I can do WTF or TKD kicks,there would be so many posts saying''No way, get competant instruction''.
Have I suddenly gone to mars haha.

When I just did TKD I also tried to figure out how to kick low well...how to box well...how to clinch and grapple.I missed so many subtle things It would of taken ages to figure out.
If you guys can work it out so well,not theory,actualy doing,,you should be hall of famers.I bow



Edited by matxtx (05/31/07 04:40 PM)

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#340773 - 05/31/07 04:59 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
matxtx Offline
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Lets get it back on track.
Its about NHB and TKD kicks.
Not TKD verses MT.
Its turning into a joke.
It would seem wiser to discuss how to go about adapting them for NHB.
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#340774 - 05/31/07 06:14 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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matxtx, sorry you don't feel you can take us seriously. Although I'm not a WTF stylist I have trained with clubs in UK, Germany, Finland, Poland and Macedonia and have seen follow through kicks which resemble (not exactly) the MT style 'follow-through' where the kicker needs to spin.

My limited experience of MT roundhouses tells me they are very different, especially at a high body level, but I repeat, there was little in that clip (good as it was) which explained the radical difference between that style of kick shown and some of the TKD kicks I have come across and which you are so intent on proving.

After over 15 years training in a number of clubs, associations and countries I think I might have something to show for it (even if I am not that great a fighter).

My question about stance was something you haven't answered completely. I know people who would try to throw a turning kick without turning their heel and try to throw it straight ahead.

This was never a TKD vs MT discussion. If we adapt a TKD kick is it still a TKD kick?


Edited by trevek (05/31/07 06:15 PM)
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#340775 - 06/01/07 04:27 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
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rereading your post has p**sed me off a bit. You go on about retracting and rechambering when that video clip also shows how to retract after a kick. If you want to talk about adapting then you've answered your own question... don't damn well retract... follow through. WOW! 5000 years and we've solved the problem.

'not the whole body'? Try standing and turning your foot 150 degrees. Then lift your other leg. Your body automatically spins because the muscles are now twisted to make it so. add to that some hip motion or shoulder motion and tell me how you are not using your whole body? I think you are mixing up the notion of the source of power and motion and the amount of the body use with momentum.

who'd the TKD guy here? Oh, can't be the one doing the axe kicks cos he does low kicks too. Must be an MT guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgb0yJe2v4s&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgb0yJe2v4s&mode=related&search=
not the greatest film but there's a couple of low kicks... or maybe he does MT as well?

same guy with a killer kick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49z_wz6JZYE&mode=related&search=

granted, didn't work this time tho'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9HWuX4BiRM&mode=related&search=

check out at about 1.30 and tell us what kind of kick that is... and what stance is he in? This was an MMA competition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX_mywq4yN0&mode=related&search=
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#340776 - 06/01/07 07:16 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
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Whats the question about the stance please?
I must of missed it.

Is still a TKD kick if its adapted?
Maybe or maybe its an NHB kick now.
Which means that it wont be spotted as a TKD kick ,which is why you wont see the TKD kicks in NHB, which was the point of the thread and my point to begin.


Edited by matxtx (06/01/07 07:24 AM)

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#340777 - 06/01/07 08:01 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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it's the post before you posted the video.
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#340778 - 06/01/07 08:24 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
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I talked about re-chambering to show the difference between the kicks.Yes,its retracted,though it retracts differenty.It retracts on the hip...not the knee,like WTF kick does.
The techniques for both kicks are different.Huh?

I personaly have never seen in real life or in clips a pure TKD person with no MT experience do a kick like it.
Maybe theres some you youtube clips out there?
Its always been ended with a snap of knee.Be it old style or knew style.Its the hall mark of TKD.To do multiple kicks.


''not the whole body'? Try standing and turning your foot 150 degrees. Then lift your other leg. Your body automatically spins because the muscles are now twisted to make it so. add to that some hip motion or shoulder motion and tell me how you are not using your whole body? I think you are mixing up the notion of the source of power and motion and the amount of the body use with momentum.''

I dont understand the point.Can you elaberate please?

The technique for the TKD kick done traditionaly does not use the FULL body motion.It is pyhsicaly and scientificaly impossible because of the re-chamber.
Once you stap it out it stops.To go any further would take someone to push your leg.Try it in the air.Do the kick.You stop.
It does not matter what you do with your foot or hips or arm,if you snap that knee out to re-chamber,you will stop.
Yes, I do pivot of the foot and use the hips and arms also,your right.Its not FULL body motion though still.
Full body motion is letting it All go,not stopping it at all,letting the target stop it.

I dont get the point of the clips either.
What were they to show?

That TKD people dont kick low? I havnt said they dont.

That kicks wont work in MMA fights?I never said they didnt.

The clips show a good TKD fighter doing ok in some MMA competion fighting people who are not the best in world or the best grapplers.
I have in mind the best.

Look.Im not anti TKD.I still train in it.lol.Im not attached to it though either.Im unbiased.I dont mean to p*** anybody off,though I will if im going against your beleifs even if I dont deliberatly mean to.
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#340779 - 06/01/07 08:35 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
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Yes.I would say thats an important difference.The MT stance being more square on.
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#340780 - 06/01/07 09:07 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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We aren't getting anywhere, I for one will not post about this stuff no longer. It's gotten to the point that I've even forgotten the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, just wanted to discuss some kicks that could be used or better yet used more often in NHB matches.

This is getting nowhere Matxtx is getting pi$$ed, Trev is getting annoyed and I'm already confused. And we all know who to blame...it's Dereck's fault, when in doubt blame the Canadians.
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#340781 - 06/01/07 09:44 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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sorry mat, your words. Maybe I missed the joke

Quote:

Most take from Muay Thai as it tactucaly and technicaly fits better. there isn't even a TKD low kick !




Anyway, like Tek says, maybe we should leave it there and all chill, huh?

Group hug everyone!!!!!
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#340782 - 06/01/07 09:59 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
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Well, I for one am enjoying the debate, and to that end I have a criticism of Matxt's argument:

Quote:

Is still a TKD kick if its adapted?
Maybe or maybe its an NHB kick now.
Which means that it wont be spotted as a TKD kick ,which is why you wont see the TKD kicks in NHB, which was the point of the thread and my point to begin.




This I think, is really the cornerstone of your argument. But I think that the point has so little real impact on the debate, that it is without meaning. Let me explain.

There have, on the thread, been examples of TKD fighters fighting in NHB contests, and in some cases, doing very well. These fighters would consider their background to be TKD and given the pedigree of some of them like Galesic and Elliot, I think we should accept them at their word. The fact that they have changed their "game" in certain respects to fit in with a change of rules- grappling, knees and elbows etc- does not mean that we should disregard their training in TKD.

If we were to talk about Randy Couture, we would neccessarily need to mention his background in wrestling, because it is so fundamental to his development as a fighter, and the style he uses in the ring/octagon. No one is saying that Couture is no longer a wrestler, he is a NHB fighter sure, but with a huge wrestling influence. He has picked up many other skills- boxing, submissions(still not his strong point)- but that does not stop us from considering him a wrestler. The same goes for his techniques, however much they have changed(and they have certainly changed!), the techniques he is using could still be considered wrestling techniques, and given his background I think most people would accept them as such.

I think there is a double standard here for TKD fighters. If a NHB fighter has a long TKD background- and remember we're talking about former world champions, people who have put much of their lives into honing their TKD skills- we should recognise the TKD influence in what he does. Sure, the techniques may change subtly, and the emphasis in how he fights, but be in no doubt that the fighter is a TKD fighter who has developed into a NHB competitor. The same goes for his techniques- whatever changes have been made to the kicking techniques, they are essentially TKD techniques that he has learnt from training TKD for so long.

It seems evident from this, that a TKD kick is STILL a TKD kick, even if it's adapted. In this respect Trevek was right in bringing up such a question, since I think your answer matxt was more a play on words than a meaningful analysis of the issue.

That looked so much shorter in my head lol.

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#340783 - 06/01/07 11:50 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
trevek Offline
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I really do think this guy is an animal

http://www.maxior.pl/?p=index&id=8785

I love it!
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#340784 - 06/01/07 12:11 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

This is getting nowhere Matxtx is getting pi$$ed, Trev is getting annoyed and I'm already confused. And we all know who to blame...it's Dereck's fault, when in doubt blame the Canadians.






Thank Tek.
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#340785 - 06/01/07 12:12 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
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Supremor,
That is exactly the kind of subject I wanted to avoid. I intended for us to discuss taekwondo kicks purely and not whether a TKD fighter would do well in NHB. NHB is a sport and for some it's an art as well.

Everyone who competes in it knows what to expect. It's been standardized. A syllabus can be drawn from the common techniques which are continuously applied.

What I wanted to discuss was something out of the box, there are jiu-jitsu techniques in NHB which are not always used because they require either a certain level of skill or are to risky. But techniques such as these still do exist and sometimes they can be executed successfully.

I wanted to discuss kicks in this fashion. There are certain kicks that can be done which take an advance level of skill and are risky, but at the same time can have great benefits. And while I am not saying that they should be done in every fight on a constant basis, these types of kicks can be used in NHB competition.

A kick is a wonderul subject to discuss because it's not used very often in NHB. Now if someone wants to come in and say "well theres a reason for so and so not being used" thats there opinion. Okay they said, they can move on, now the rest of us can have our discussion about kicks and NHB.

In NHB only basic kicks are used, however, not all of the basic kicks are used. I'm skipping those unused basics and trying to bring up slightly more advanced kicks.

Kind of like a Power punch, rear handed punch. An advanced verion would be the "superman" punch. Or a back fist, the advanced versin would be the spinning back fist.

Well the kicks I mentioned were basic kicks but turned slightly more advanced because hey require footwork for added speed and power. And for sake of discussion I am saying that because these kicks are not used or practiced against at all by most NHB fighters, those who know them... In this case a TKD-man could benefit from them occasionally.

I apologize for my repetitiveness and long winded post, but this is how it came out. Many thanks,
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#340786 - 06/01/07 02:06 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
hehe, I thought I could sneak that one by...I guess not Dereck sees everything.
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#340787 - 06/01/07 02:19 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Your kind of right Supremor.
In the context of a TKD person coming in and using what he knows or what happens to rear its head,I agree with.Im all for that.If he can do it.

And I would say its the small details that matter at the top
I was coming from the angle of a persom who is fighting the best in the world at NHB.My veiw was that he is unlikely that he will go away to learn the TKD kicks discussed if he has not done them before.
My other point,and I still beleive brothers ,is that a pure NHB syle is the future.There will be a kick which is the best way to kick for NHB.
Future fighters will have only done NHB..not TKD or MT or whatever,and so only have NHB specific techniques and tactics.
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#340788 - 06/01/07 03:03 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

My veiw was that he is unlikely that he will go away to learn the TKD kicks discussed if he has not done them before.




Agreed. If they come from a kicking background such as TKD then I think they will be a different fighter then somebody going into NHB and learning kicks. As their main focus is MMA at this point, they will train MMA and not venture off into TKD to learn its kicking. Possible but highly unlikely. It is probably more inline to say if they have a TKD style kick it was most likely taught to them from somebody that did TKD or a similar kicking art but venturing off to get proficient at kicking thus taking away from the rest of their MMA training, not likely.
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