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#340778 - 06/01/07 08:24 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I talked about re-chambering to show the difference between the kicks.Yes,its retracted,though it retracts differenty.It retracts on the hip...not the knee,like WTF kick does.
The techniques for both kicks are different.Huh?

I personaly have never seen in real life or in clips a pure TKD person with no MT experience do a kick like it.
Maybe theres some you youtube clips out there?
Its always been ended with a snap of knee.Be it old style or knew style.Its the hall mark of TKD.To do multiple kicks.


''not the whole body'? Try standing and turning your foot 150 degrees. Then lift your other leg. Your body automatically spins because the muscles are now twisted to make it so. add to that some hip motion or shoulder motion and tell me how you are not using your whole body? I think you are mixing up the notion of the source of power and motion and the amount of the body use with momentum.''

I dont understand the point.Can you elaberate please?

The technique for the TKD kick done traditionaly does not use the FULL body motion.It is pyhsicaly and scientificaly impossible because of the re-chamber.
Once you stap it out it stops.To go any further would take someone to push your leg.Try it in the air.Do the kick.You stop.
It does not matter what you do with your foot or hips or arm,if you snap that knee out to re-chamber,you will stop.
Yes, I do pivot of the foot and use the hips and arms also,your right.Its not FULL body motion though still.
Full body motion is letting it All go,not stopping it at all,letting the target stop it.

I dont get the point of the clips either.
What were they to show?

That TKD people dont kick low? I havnt said they dont.

That kicks wont work in MMA fights?I never said they didnt.

The clips show a good TKD fighter doing ok in some MMA competion fighting people who are not the best in world or the best grapplers.
I have in mind the best.

Look.Im not anti TKD.I still train in it.lol.Im not attached to it though either.Im unbiased.I dont mean to p*** anybody off,though I will if im going against your beleifs even if I dont deliberatly mean to.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#340779 - 06/01/07 08:35 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yes.I would say thats an important difference.The MT stance being more square on.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#340780 - 06/01/07 09:07 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
We aren't getting anywhere, I for one will not post about this stuff no longer. It's gotten to the point that I've even forgotten the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, just wanted to discuss some kicks that could be used or better yet used more often in NHB matches.

This is getting nowhere Matxtx is getting pi$$ed, Trev is getting annoyed and I'm already confused. And we all know who to blame...it's Dereck's fault, when in doubt blame the Canadians.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340781 - 06/01/07 09:44 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
sorry mat, your words. Maybe I missed the joke

Quote:

Most take from Muay Thai as it tactucaly and technicaly fits better. there isn't even a TKD low kick !




Anyway, like Tek says, maybe we should leave it there and all chill, huh?

Group hug everyone!!!!!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#340782 - 06/01/07 09:59 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Well, I for one am enjoying the debate, and to that end I have a criticism of Matxt's argument:

Quote:

Is still a TKD kick if its adapted?
Maybe or maybe its an NHB kick now.
Which means that it wont be spotted as a TKD kick ,which is why you wont see the TKD kicks in NHB, which was the point of the thread and my point to begin.




This I think, is really the cornerstone of your argument. But I think that the point has so little real impact on the debate, that it is without meaning. Let me explain.

There have, on the thread, been examples of TKD fighters fighting in NHB contests, and in some cases, doing very well. These fighters would consider their background to be TKD and given the pedigree of some of them like Galesic and Elliot, I think we should accept them at their word. The fact that they have changed their "game" in certain respects to fit in with a change of rules- grappling, knees and elbows etc- does not mean that we should disregard their training in TKD.

If we were to talk about Randy Couture, we would neccessarily need to mention his background in wrestling, because it is so fundamental to his development as a fighter, and the style he uses in the ring/octagon. No one is saying that Couture is no longer a wrestler, he is a NHB fighter sure, but with a huge wrestling influence. He has picked up many other skills- boxing, submissions(still not his strong point)- but that does not stop us from considering him a wrestler. The same goes for his techniques, however much they have changed(and they have certainly changed!), the techniques he is using could still be considered wrestling techniques, and given his background I think most people would accept them as such.

I think there is a double standard here for TKD fighters. If a NHB fighter has a long TKD background- and remember we're talking about former world champions, people who have put much of their lives into honing their TKD skills- we should recognise the TKD influence in what he does. Sure, the techniques may change subtly, and the emphasis in how he fights, but be in no doubt that the fighter is a TKD fighter who has developed into a NHB competitor. The same goes for his techniques- whatever changes have been made to the kicking techniques, they are essentially TKD techniques that he has learnt from training TKD for so long.

It seems evident from this, that a TKD kick is STILL a TKD kick, even if it's adapted. In this respect Trevek was right in bringing up such a question, since I think your answer matxt was more a play on words than a meaningful analysis of the issue.

That looked so much shorter in my head lol.

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#340783 - 06/01/07 11:50 AM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I really do think this guy is an animal

http://www.maxior.pl/?p=index&id=8785

I love it!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#340784 - 06/01/07 12:11 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

This is getting nowhere Matxtx is getting pi$$ed, Trev is getting annoyed and I'm already confused. And we all know who to blame...it's Dereck's fault, when in doubt blame the Canadians.






Thank Tek.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#340785 - 06/01/07 12:12 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Supremor,
That is exactly the kind of subject I wanted to avoid. I intended for us to discuss taekwondo kicks purely and not whether a TKD fighter would do well in NHB. NHB is a sport and for some it's an art as well.

Everyone who competes in it knows what to expect. It's been standardized. A syllabus can be drawn from the common techniques which are continuously applied.

What I wanted to discuss was something out of the box, there are jiu-jitsu techniques in NHB which are not always used because they require either a certain level of skill or are to risky. But techniques such as these still do exist and sometimes they can be executed successfully.

I wanted to discuss kicks in this fashion. There are certain kicks that can be done which take an advance level of skill and are risky, but at the same time can have great benefits. And while I am not saying that they should be done in every fight on a constant basis, these types of kicks can be used in NHB competition.

A kick is a wonderul subject to discuss because it's not used very often in NHB. Now if someone wants to come in and say "well theres a reason for so and so not being used" thats there opinion. Okay they said, they can move on, now the rest of us can have our discussion about kicks and NHB.

In NHB only basic kicks are used, however, not all of the basic kicks are used. I'm skipping those unused basics and trying to bring up slightly more advanced kicks.

Kind of like a Power punch, rear handed punch. An advanced verion would be the "superman" punch. Or a back fist, the advanced versin would be the spinning back fist.

Well the kicks I mentioned were basic kicks but turned slightly more advanced because hey require footwork for added speed and power. And for sake of discussion I am saying that because these kicks are not used or practiced against at all by most NHB fighters, those who know them... In this case a TKD-man could benefit from them occasionally.

I apologize for my repetitiveness and long winded post, but this is how it came out. Many thanks,
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340786 - 06/01/07 02:06 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
hehe, I thought I could sneak that one by...I guess not Dereck sees everything.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#340787 - 06/01/07 02:19 PM Re: NHB lacks TKD [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Your kind of right Supremor.
In the context of a TKD person coming in and using what he knows or what happens to rear its head,I agree with.Im all for that.If he can do it.

And I would say its the small details that matter at the top
I was coming from the angle of a persom who is fighting the best in the world at NHB.My veiw was that he is unlikely that he will go away to learn the TKD kicks discussed if he has not done them before.
My other point,and I still beleive brothers ,is that a pure NHB syle is the future.There will be a kick which is the best way to kick for NHB.
Future fighters will have only done NHB..not TKD or MT or whatever,and so only have NHB specific techniques and tactics.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Top
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