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#340025 - 05/07/07 08:21 PM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
That you are not going to post anymore is sad, I'm enjoying the debate. None the less I feel inclined to answer some things further.

Quote:

In 10 years when you are looking at fighters, think back to this debate we are having and do a comparison, I think you will find the quality of the fighters has jumped quite a bit. Why? well the sport will evolve but with all the extra competiton in the ring, the odds of one of the truly special athletes finding his way into MMA increases.




I believe this statement is flawed. If you take a look back through sports history you will find many greats in that era that even sports people today have not accomplished or that only a few have accomplished. Take a look at hockey, if you compare Bobby Orr's stats to Wayne Gretzky's stats you will find that Bobby Orr according to the stats was a better hockey player. 10 years from now Bobby Orr will still have been a great hockey player that nobody will reach many of his accomplishments ... and don't get me started on my Albertan Wayne Gretzky ... he is the Great One and always will be even 50 years from now.

Quote:

The problem with this point, is it clearly shows you do not understand my argument. Train the same means from the beginning not picking it up now.




So what you are saying is that because of Mayweather's talent that if he trained from the beginning he would be a great MMA'ist? So lets take Jerome Bettis who I think was a great football players. If he trained from the beginning then he could have been a great tennis player? Or perhaps an Olympic swimmer? Do you not think that some people's talents better suit them for only certain sports and that they would still have difficulty with other levels of sports? Is it not possible, which I think highly likely, that somebody like Mayweather may have natural talent to be a boxer but ground skills would have not been something easy for him? Or that if Chuck Liddell was given equal opportunity that he could not have done well in boxing? Mayweather is suited to boxing as Chuck is suited to MMA ... they are using their natural talents in the right place. And what makes you think that Chuck does not have any natural talent? And furthermore, there are plenty of top athletes throughout time that did not have any natural talent (gifted) that worked twice as hard and accomplished just as much.

Quote:

The other point I am trying to make, that I guess I have not been clear about, is you cannot train the things that seperate great athletes from the elite professionals.

You must train and be dealt a genetic royal flush to make that leap.




Again I think that is not true. Yes an athlete that is gifted has a foot up on the competition but great and elite athletes are both gifted and not. Effort and believing in yourself counts a heck of a lot more to me then somebody that is just born good at something.

Quote:

The altheltes that have this "gift" are not choosing MMA, at least not yet.




I can't even believe you said this. How did you make this conclusion? Sorry ... survey says .... NOT!
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#340026 - 05/07/07 09:03 PM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

The altheltes that have this "gift" are not choosing MMA, at least not yet.




Wow. Really ridiculous statement. Can you prove this? Do you have stats to back this up?

I have to say Kimo, that your line of reasoning ("You do not understand my argument", "I have been around elite athletes", etc.) is amusingly condescending, though.

Certainly nobody else here on the forum would know anything about elite athletes, right?
_________________________
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#340027 - 05/08/07 01:24 AM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Ok, Kimo, It's time that I pick you apart like a Lego model.

Quote:

Because he is natually a far more gifted athlete.


And what information source is this statement based on? He is far more gifted? Yeah, he's more gifted. IN BOXING. Not fighting as a total vehicle. Oh sorry, for using advanced English. Let me rephrase; HE CAN BOX BUT NOTHING ELSE AT THE MOMENT.

Quote:

If you have not read and understood my posts, please don't respond.



No, you've the one that did that. You haven't read my post, then you proceed to say that I haven't understood YOUR point, when you're so gawd damn stubborn about you're the one being right, when you're clearly WRONG in almost every opinion of yours.

Quote:

If you have a valid point make don't call my point ingnorant, particularly when you don't understand it.


To be honest, that point is THE MOST ignorant statement I have seen in my entire career as a martial artist. I've done boxing. I've done Muay Thai. I've done Judo, I've done MMA. And not just a few months of them either, I've done them for years. I certainly know what each of them are good at and where they fail or I wouldn't be jumping around like a masterless monkey.

Then you re-phrase your statement "Train them the same way from the beginning" which means taking Floyd and making him an Mixed Martial Artist, when you were saying that boxers can beat MMAists. Your argumentative skills aren't just confusing, they suck as well.

Quote:

please don't respond, it's wastes everyone's time.


I can post where-ever I please on the forum. That is one of the privileges of being a member. I seriously doubt it wastes your time because you're not reading my points and you just jump to conclusions.

Kimo, all you've done are fallacies, and making bold statements without facts backing them up. I want to see numbers, statistics, claim, anything that backs your opinion up but no. You don't have because frankly, you're obviously wrong.

Quote:

You must train and be dealt a genetic royal flush to make that leap.



Genetic royal flush. Ken Shamrock. Tell me one person except Bruce Lee who is as genetically gifted like Ken Shamrock? Thought so. But then again, even the mighty Bruce Lee and Ken Shamrock both said "It was their training, not their genetics which made them good".

Quote:

The altheltes that have this "gift" are not choosing MMA, at least not yet.


I'm sorry for putting this bluntly. Bull****.

Quote:

I am not going to post anymore


Which means you're giving up because you know that what you believe in is being proven wrong and you just can't handle the truth.

Quote:

am simply stating the best athletes in the world have not yet begun to fight MMA bouts.



Bullocks. To be able to fight in MMA you need to have a conditioned body comparable to boxers, soldiers, heck almost to the point of Olympic athletes. It's THAT demanding.

Quote:

In 10 years when you are looking at fighters, think back to this debate we are having and do a comparison, I think you will find the quality of the fighters has jumped quite a bit.


Oh really? I can say 5 names that are old-schools in MMA that still make modern day practitioners shiver. Don Frye, Taktarov, Royce Gracie, Ruaz, and Dan Savern. They are the so called 'elite' old-schools and they fighting records are damn good compared to modern day fighters. And we're talking like 12-14 years ago.

Quote:

Imagine a Mike Tyson in the octagon with those light gloves he would kill people, cave in faces with his speed and power.



This again is put ignorantly. Mike Tyson has officially stated that he doesn't want to fight in MMA because they are more menacing than him in this category of full-contact sport. Heck, he didn't even want to fight Bob Sapp in kickboxing. He said "Boxing rules or no fight". Figure out why he said that.

Quote:

With those light gloves he would kill people


You do know that last time Mike punched without gloves, he broke his wrists. Without those big gloves of his, he's not going to be able to do much in the octagon, so your statement is once again, invalid.

Quote:

The stand up game is only one aspect of MMA. Leg kicks, takedowns, and grappling are a big part as well. All of which Mayweather would be hopelessly outmatched in.


Agreed with this one.

And you've completely dodged the fact that like I stated, the heavyweights of both sports are in totally different quality. The heavyweights of MMA are lean and in peak shape when compared to heavyweight boxers who aren't even able to get to round 6 without an oxygen tank.

Kimo, no disrespect, but you've got to learn how to argue better. All you do is type "you don't understand" and expect us to take that as "Ok I don't understand, so you're right" right? Wrong. If we don't understand means either what you wrote has been phrased incorrectly or that your statement is rubbish. Complete, utter, unadultered rubbish.

-Taison out
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#340028 - 05/08/07 02:35 PM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: Taison]
motobusmonkey Offline
Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 85
Loc: St Louis
I think Derek has the best point yet, athletes, even "elite" ones have sports that they are better at. Consider Michael Jordan, he is definately an elite athlete, but obviously he was better suited for basketball than baseball. When he transferred over to baseball, he was second rate, sure his eliteness let him get into the league, but he couldn't compete with the pros of that sport.

-Jeff

I know the thread was just about dead but I couldn't help myself.

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#340029 - 05/08/07 04:01 PM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: motobusmonkey]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Great example. Another is Brock Lesnar who was an elite wrestler who went to professional wrestling (WWE) and did well for himself. He then tried his hand at NFL Football and was mediocre at best. Now he will try his hand out in MMA (K-1 Hero's) and we will see what he can do there. Another would be myself, though I am no where near an elite athlete. I have trained far longer at TKD but in less time I am more adept to BJJ. Both fighting arts but that doesn't necessarily mean I should be as good at the other, just like Mayweather may be a good boxer but doesn't mean he would be good at striker, kicker, ground fighter or MMA fighter.
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#340030 - 05/09/07 10:05 PM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Being an elite athlete in a given sport is no guarantee or even a reliable predictor of an abilty or an aptitude for MMA. Period.
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#340031 - 05/10/07 06:53 PM Re: Floyd Mayweather on MMA [Re: Fletch1]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Sigh I just can't let it go, I tried...but can stay civil I like to debate but can we refrain from name calling?

OK maybe if I try this another way you will begin to understand why I say the caliber of Athlete in MMA does not the same as Major professional sports.

Let’s start with numbers:

First, we have the number of people competing in the sport, the difference between say football and MMA is at least, and I am being conservative, a magnitude of 10. With an exponentially smaller pool of people to chose from, the idea that the top athletes in that pool would equal the ones in a group 10 times it’s size, is statistically highly improbable.

Second, is the professional infrastructure in place of coaches, scouts, GM’s etc who’s only mission in life is to find the next great player and get him into the right program for development and evaluation. Thousands of colleges training and evaluating athletes looking for the gifted few, nothing remotely like this in the size and resources exists in MMA.

Money is an obvious problem MMA just cannot offer what other Pro Sports can.

Participation is another issue, until very recently MA in general did not attract the better athletes, often is was kids that needed something from MA, like confidence or self defense, most of us would watch the Asian Kid break a few boards on international day in school, and that would be about it. In fact when I started training in ’86 the one thing I noticed was how few athletes training, there were some of course but not very many.

There is a lot more to discuss in the world of sport, like someone mentioned climbing or biking and that they were elite athletes. Truth is for the most part they are well trained people with some aptitude and through the numbers eventually someone like Lance Armstrong comes along and shatters the record book, and then retires and the sport waits a few generations for the next elite person to come along. These sport stay small and attract enthusiasts, and are much like MMA except that compared to these sports MMA’s numbers are far smaller (takes a special kind of person to want to climb into a full contact octagon, trust me it’s a small group)

MMA is a very young sport, frankly just now climbing out of the “street fight” level event, there has been so much refinement in the just the few years UFC took the stage and it will continue to get better and will attract better athletes and one day, eventually a truly elite fighter will come along, and you will know when he does.

This is not to say we should not celebrate out heroes in MMA, they deserve it, they were the best of their time.
So when you look all the evidence in an objective way, I think you would have to find it fairly extraordinary that in just a few short years with relatively few practitioners, the caliber of athlete as risen to the level of large market professional sports.

Some random responses to the multitude of comments:


Fletch said-
Quote:

They are different sports and MMA is in its infant stage still. The next ten years are going to be downright frightening with the level of skill you can expect to see in MMA.





Matt Said in response to my comment that any pro boxer trained in MMA would wipe the mat with the full contact guys of today
Quote:

I'm not disagreeing with that, per se. However, I would bet that any pro boxer that isn't MMA trained would get HIS a$$ wiped all over the mat by someone that is.





Matt said-
Quote:

It is insulting and untrue to say that (especially the top tier) MMA people have no skill.





I never meant to imply that at all or question the heart and training of the guys in the MMA.

Matt said-
Quote:

'Generations behind' in prize money - not skill




Where was Fletch's response, as it this statement seems to contradict what he said earlier.

Matt said-
Quote:

What makes you think they cannot hang with other elite athletes? I really want to know




Many reasons, I tried to state a few above.

Taison said-
Quote:

I'm actually more impressed with the MMA people's physique and stamina than boxers




Which is a clear sign you are evaluating athletes through the eyes of a fan. While these things are involved they something that can be achieved by anyone willing to do the work. The difference between the elites and everyone else are the things you "can't" train for, if that wasn't the case then the people who trained hardest would be the best and that is simply not true.

Razorfoot said-
Quote:

And what kind of argument can you have when the man himself has stated clearly that he respects the fighters and that he wants no part of any MMA fighter?





Well you have to look at what he said before he talked his PR guy and after, I am sure he feels he is the superior athlete in his heart, but realized it was not a good idea to call out a sport you are not trained, when you are undefeated champion with everything to lose.

Razor said-
Quote:

Athletically, MMA guys, especially the top fighters, are as well trained as any boxer, perhaps better when it comes to stamina.




Training is not the issue, training is absolute, must every athlete must be well trained but in fact there are people out there who are world class and don’t train nearly as hard as they should and still succeed. It's hard to watch because you can only imagine how good they could have been had they trained properly. And I can also tell you how dishearting it can be for an athlete who trains his ass off only to lose to someone who didn't work as hard, but was just so gifted he didn't need to.

Happens all the time.

Derreck said
Quote:

And neither has made any venture to MMA so I guess they shut up!





Well could be 2 things, they have enough respect to know they couldn’t compete without years of training to catch up, which is a compliment to MMA, or the MMA higher ups know it would destroy the sport if a relatively untrained boxer came in and beat the best they had. It’s interesting but things are not always what they seem. I am not saying that’s the case, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Dereck Said speaking about Boxing and MMA-
Quote:

These are two different things and you cannot compare the two.




But you can compare the caliber of athlete and that is the point I have been making the entire time. Every time someone diverts to the difference in the sports we are off topic.

Dereck said-
Quote:

That you are not going to post anymore is sad, I'm enjoying the debate




I decided to re read the thread and see where it went, I realize I had gotten [censored] off at some postings, mostly due to tone. But reading the body as a whole I am sure I am guilty of a few unnecessarily comments as well.


Dereck said-
Quote:

If you take a look back through sports history you will find many greats in that era that even sports people today have not accomplished or that only a few have accomplished




What the analysis’s say is that the great players of all time would be great in any era, they were the “gifted” few, what has changed over time is the average player has gotten better so the gap between the great one, and everyone else has gotten smaller, but the great ones would still be great.

Dereck said-
Quote:

The athletes that have this "gift" are not choosing MMA, at least not yet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I can't even believe you said this. How did you make this conclusion? Sorry ... survey says .... NOT




I think I have given multiple reasons why.

Matt said -
Quote:

The athletes that have this "gift" are not choosing MMA, at least not yet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wow. Really ridiculous statement. Can you prove this? Do you have stats to back this up?





It's only ridiculous to those who don't see things from the point of view of athletes on the pro stage and how they get there, and everything at work behind the scenes. Again, these guys are highly sought commodities teams, businesses, cities make billions of these guys and they are not looking to lose the best prospects to full contact cage matches.

Matt said -
Quote:

I have to say Kimo, that your line of reasoning ("You do not understand my argument", "I have been around elite athletes", etc.) is amusingly condescending, though.





Well I try, but you did just twist my words a bit.

I have said you don’t understand my argument to the countless replies about conditioning, when I am not arguing that point.


Taison said-
Quote:

I am not going to post anymore


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which means you're giving up because you know that what you believe in is being proven wrong and you just can't handle the truth.





Yes that was it.

Taison said-
Quote:

Mike Tyson has officially stated that he doesn't want to fight in MMA because they are more menacing than him in this category of full-contact sport




See the PR reply above, besides we are talking about Tyson here not the best resource for info.

Taison said-
Quote:

You do know that last time Mike punched without gloves, he broke his wrists. Without those big gloves of his, he's not going to be able to do much in the octagon, so your statement is once again, invalid.





Again a fundamental mis understanding of a simple point. My statement is not undermined in the slightest because he broke his lists. Since my statement centers around ability and not training. You make such rude statements and then use flawed logic.

By the way Bruce Lee did look great on film.

motobus said
Quote:

Consider Michael Jordan, he is definately an elite athlete, but obviously he was better suited for basketball than baseball. When he transferred over to baseball, he was second rate




Second rate? He hadn't played is a decade, never played against a pro once in his life and competed against guys in the minors and did OK. Are you aware how good these "second rate" ball players are? Nobody who gets a contract to play baseball is second rate. Jordon didn't have major league skills, maybe if he had kept playing from childhood, but to say he couldn't compete is a mis read of his ability.


Fletch said-
Quote:

Being an elite athlete in a given sport is no guarantee or even a reliable predictor of an ability or an aptitude for MMA. Period




Really? So you don't think someone with world class athletic ability suited for MMA (i.e. like a line backer or a boxer) would be an odds on favorite to have aptitude for MMA?
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